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Dont leave the Island

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posted on Mar, 25 2007 @ 10:54 AM

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Smink, I dont mind paying extra taxes if I can see it is doing some good, but thats just the point is it not we are paying more and more yet the service we get acttually gets worse so no its not a rant.

- I can respect a POV that complains about taxation levels mm, it's probably not a bad position to begin from.

What I can't agree with is selective propaganda that tries to tell us all that we're paying 50%+ in taxes when that is either just not true or is so heavily selective and loaded with caveats as to be nothing like 'everybody's' experience at all
(tax credits being a prime case in point here in The Telegraph's example(s) ).

Direct taxation in this country is not (by international standards) that high and I thought you tory-favouring types loved indirect taxes as those taxes that people choose to pay?

An endless 'Dutch auction' for ever lower taxes in a modern western society is not IMO a good or sensible thing at all, just as competitive devaluation(s) are hugely dangerous to whole economies so IMO are loopy right-wing fairy tales that 'the State' ought to be liitle more than a national security agency - operating mainly via 'contracting out'.

Naturally - despite the rhetoric - it turns out that right-wing Govs have a nasty habit of actually increasing the tax-burden on the lowest and middle-ranking in society with nothing like a 'tax credit' system to off-set the worst effects of this - see last UK tory Gov for details.

40 billion raised in road taxation, is it spent on the roads no, this Goverment like all others takes but it does not give the service we pay for.

- Yeah but that's just it mm, it's not (despite the duty's title) the service you're pay for.
Under the British 'system' you pay the appropriate duty.
We do not have - and never have had, under any Gov - hypothecated taxes and those who insist on pretending otherwise are just fooling themselves.

Its funny how were are told that there is not enough money going in yet at the same time companies are making record profits.

- Well you can hardly beat the Gov up for the economic performance of the private sector (cos all they have done is - as every right-wing economist says they must) is 'create the favourable conditions for private wealth creation and economic growth.

Fundamentally if people will keep voting for Govs with programs that insist that reducing business taxes is of itself a good thing then what do you expect?

Hence this Labour Gov cutting the main level of business taxation again.

I'd have had you down as a supporter of low business taxes or are you looking for a Gov to attack business and go for all that protectionism stuff!?

posted on Mar, 25 2007 @ 01:53 PM
Right Smink I pay 22% basic tax, 16% nat ins and there is 17.5% on everything else so where do you get your figures from, from your political masters. The stopages on my gross income add up to 25%, I pay 85% tax on petrol, VAT on virtually everthing I buy so I'm getting a good deal am I and when it comes down to it were both arguing over a couple of %.


Road fund licence

Tax on all insurance polices

Tax on all fuels

VAT on all but a few goods

Income tax

National Insurance a tax

Tv licence a tax

Council rates a tax

Tax on tobaco users

Tax on wines, beers, spirits

Capital gains tax

Inheritence tax

If I make a few pounds on the side that should be declared for taxation purposes.

Tax on savings

If you act as a resposible citizen and save for your future, look after your home, have a private pension that is all taxed.

I'm sure I have missed a few but you will point them out.

Maybe we should have a tax on fat people or smart/dumb people or the air we breath or on tall or short people, once again I'm sure you will be scurrying of to your masters with my idea's

And you think its fine do you for corrupt businesses to overcharge the Goverment (sorry I mean the tax payer) for the services they provide. Like the pharmacuticle industry etc. thats value for money is it or a service company charging £250 to a hospital trust to change a light switch.

Just for a change how about leaving the political trumpet at home and speak as a human being.

posted on Mar, 25 2007 @ 09:27 PM

Originally posted by magicmushroom
Just for a change how about leaving the political trumpet at home and speak as a human being.

- If you're going to debate the politics of the situation then you have to at least stay with the facts.
That's why context and historical precedent matter.

It's also why I'll challenge silly rhetoric like claiming a £10 short-haul flight duty or a £20 long-haul flight duty are something new or a case of anyone being taxed to death.
Ditto an incorrect assertion that the majority here are being taxed at 50%+.

I've told you a million times, do not exaggerate.

You also make it sound as if those taxes you listed are new, they are not (and rates have been increased under this Gov - in the case of inheritance tax, perhaps surprisingly, to the point where only 6% of estates are how come you list some of these as taxes you'll pay when the likelihood is you'll not have anything to do with it, hmmmm?
You're going out of your way to feel a victim of parts of the tax regime when you're almost certainly not, mm.
What capital gains are you likely to pay......unlike much of Europe we don't even count sky-rocketing property values as a capital gain - and suffer the consequences of it out of control and unchecked)......

......and it's not much of a surprise to me to see that you continue to completely ignore the unique levels of assistance this Gov gives to those less well off in the form of tax credits for those in work and with children.

Why do you think the supposed 'backlash' the tory press were hoping for last week has turned into, at best, an indifferent shrug by the public?
Is anyone so childishly deluded to imagine there were never any 'winners' and 'losers' with a tory budget!?
Such is the 'level' our tory press operates at.

The only choices are the ones on offer.

Whilst I have my own personal criticisms of what is done and what is going on I see no value in agreeing with unrealistic or inaccurate versions of reality.
I prefer my politics grounded in the reality of how things are now and how things are when compared to how they once were.
That way one can usually see (any) real progress or otherwise and dismiss a lot of the 'flannel' spoken about it all.

The truth is that far from this being a relatively high tax Gov this one is, in fact, by any recent and fair comparison, not.
You might like to check out the tax rates under the whole period of the last tory Gov
(and try not to 'cherry pick' their best 2yrs as representative of the whole).

As I said mm, it was the tory philosophy that shifted so much of the tax burden on to indirect taxation claiming that at least one could choose to buy or not those goods carrying VAT.
That thoery got a bit sticky when it came to essential things like fuel for the home but then it was this Gov that reduced that VAT the tories had imposed on housegold fuels to 5% (instead of the then tory level of VAT @ 15%).

You might want to call that 'support' or "trumpeting" for a political POV but IMO it is merely a sensible checking of the truth of how the current situation arose and saying how it is.

That is IMO the intelligent, adult, clear and sober way to judge and debate these things.

[edit on 25-3-2007 by sminkeypinkey]

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