From Anonymous Posts: New Here

Never mind about the plastic. I just answered my own question. Others are still up for discussion and Atlantis is still a big "?".

Original Anonymous Post By: anon_101929
This anonymous post is in response to ATS thread: Civilization Before Atlantis [Help]

Okay, guys here's the deal. I am a scientist on vacation who happened to catch a documentary on the migratory origins of the Ojibwe a few days ago. I found the idea of an X-haplotype genetic trail intriguing and started digging. Since then, I have seen all sorts of rubbish on the Internet (sleeping prophets, rocks with plugs, etc.) and have some questions for those of you who have been studying Atlantis. Why do so few favored locations include calderas and impact craters (simular ringed structure fits nicely with origin myths)? No intelligent culture with such advanced technology would dare build directly on the edge of a tectonic plate in the middle of the ocean (why not wipe out the mainlanders and take their geologically stable plots?). Why haven't any plastic artefacts been found (not exactly biodegradable)? Would anyone recognize signs of a society more advanced than our own if we happened to trip over it? I am not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I think it would be great if we found Atlantis someday. However, in my line of work I must ask such questions on a daily basis (How did life originate? How is life defined? Would we recognize alien life? What are the possibilities given chemical constraints?). I really want to believe here but I just can't bring myself to do it just yet. That doesn't mean it can't happen. Heck! I'm trying to use crystals to copy organic molecules like life does for crying out loud and that's pretty far out there to most people. Convince me!

Pretty good point about building on a tectonic plate.

Originally posted by watergrace
Never mind about the plastic. I just answered my own question. Others are still up for discussion and Atlantis is still a big "?".

Original Anonymous Post By: anon_101929
This anonymous post is in response to ATS thread: Civilization Before Atlantis [Help]

Okay, guys here's the deal. I am a scientist on vacation who happened to catch a documentary on the migratory origins of the Ojibwe a few days ago. I found the idea of an X-haplotype genetic trail intriguing and started digging. Since then, I have seen all sorts of rubbish on the Internet (sleeping prophets, rocks with plugs, etc.) and have some questions for those of you who have been studying Atlantis.

I'll try to answer.

Why do so few favored locations include calderas and impact craters (simular ringed structure fits nicely with origin myths)?

Two reasons:
Firstly, Atlantis was a teaching story and there was no such place.
Secondly, most folks don't know anything about geological structures. They tend to rely on the Edgar Cayce "channeled" stuff, which was created by Cayce in the 1930's. I invite you to read some of the skeptical things about Cayce. And Cayce didn't focus on Plato's tale and the structure of the city or the society. So you have the original teaching tale and the mythology created by Cayce and psychic societies.

No intelligent culture with such advanced technology would dare build directly on the edge of a tectonic plate in the middle of the ocean (why not wipe out the mainlanders and take their geologically stable plots?).

Actually, they lived within sailing distance of Athens and tried to conquer Bronze Age Athens. Athens kicked their tails (according to Plato's stories.) So, you see, the original legend has them doing that.

Why haven't any plastic artefacts been found (not exactly biodegradable)?

Because it's myth. We can also point out that no advanced ceramics or metals have been found, either.

That said, Plato said they had Bronze Age technology. Cayce and the modern psychics were the ones who came up with the flying vehicles/crystals/etc/etc.

Would anyone recognize signs of a society more advanced than our own if we happened to trip over it?

Have a chat with some paleontologists and archaeologists and anthropologists. We could certainly come up with a list of 'how we'd know it was advanced' and discuss interesting options (such as 'suppose their records were only electronic or were only vocal.')

I really want to believe here but I just can't bring myself to do it just yet.

Actually, the evidence isn't there. One of the strongest markers that it would be true would be if the Greeks and other nations had art and poetry and drama commemorating the event or the civilization. They loved a good tragedy, and the story Plato crafted had everything that would appeal to them... tragedy, hubris, retribution, Greek heroes conquering invaders. As an example, Troy (though to be mythic for a long time) was known through plays like 'The Trojan Women' and statues of Agamemnon and Achilles and other cultural artifacts.

There's nothing at all from that period that mentions Atlantis. No plays, no poetry, no other evidence.

Sure, obviously Cayce had an active imagination. Most likely, he was feeling pretty unimportant in his own life and rather than investing that creativity in his own artistic endeavors, he decided to make a name for himself through other means. I am not paying any attention whatsoever to what Cayce says. As for the plastic, I found a solid, scientific reason for it on my own and through modern scientific literature. Most plastic is not very durable to certain types of radioactivy. Several years ago, I went on a field trip where I collected chunks of uraninite from the field and placed them in common ziplock bags (found in a residential neighborhood in Northern Ontario). Two years later, those bags are yellow and crinkle to the touch in the shielding I store them in today. There are many research groups in materials science attempting to engineer more durable materials that could better stand up to radiation. Once I started to envision how much around me would survive nuclear fall-out, very little was left. In fact, this could explain why most of what remains over such time scales is either stone, biological remains, metal or pottery. Most of our land fill content would not last for tens of thousands of years if subjected to a nuclear blast. Most metals commonly found in a household would rust and disintegrate. Ceramics with lead-based glazes should survive but little else would (see Hiroshima accounts). I only make this pro-Atlantis argument now because I must approach many questions with an open mind. Many on this website wouldn't believe the things my research group is able to do because they are so convinced the origins of life, for instance, is a persuit only gods may partake of. To these people, my employment would be a myth. It might interest them to know that there are more parallels to biblical writing (and in fact other tales describing the creation of life) than would be coincidence, in my oppinion. That's just the way chemistry happens to work out, oddly enough. I do not consider myself a religious person so to me this is little more than an interesting fact. Perhaps references to Atlantis in other cultures posted on the Internet from library material (including an ivy-league university's collections I can access on my own) are ancient fiction. I am willing to accept that as a possible explanation. However, it is interesting that such ancient tales would be so commonly reproduced in our global culture. Ask anyone on the street to tell you about Homer and chances are the only Homer they will know is Homer Simpson! Granted, Athens did kick Atlantis' tail acccording to Plato but this could be little more than national pride on his part. I would not even consider such an idea if I had not taken a course on WWII at a Japanese university. If a country A is suddenly obliterated by country B, would country C take much credit for it? I wonder if country C might even bother including country A in their history at all if something truly catastrophic occured. Who has time for trival ideas when you are busy struggling to survive the aftermath? Existential ideas and survival prevail. Perhaps Plato was right but there's no way to know now. Native American tales had no reason to include flying vehicles, sky worlds, little people, or other beings of astronomical origin but they do. For me, this whole thing started from an interest in my own roots. Sure, certain ideas tend to be favored by various cultures in general but other aspects of vocal history are not very nice at all. Yet, they are shared by people on both sides of the Atlantic. Although I do not know any archaeologists, I do know a fair number of paleontologists and they find my arguments valid. There are no ways to test the validity of this argument but I am willing to consider the possibility that materials used by a futuristic culture might be so foreign to us we would have to describe them in terms of more familiar, if inaccurate ways (i.e., thunderbird = airplane).

Originally posted by watergrace
Sure, obviously Cayce had an active imagination. Most likely, he was feeling pretty unimportant in his own life and rather than investing that creativity in his own artistic endeavors, he decided to make a name for himself through other means.

I think he believed he had a talent and genuinely wanted to help folks. however...

There are many research groups in materials science attempting to engineer more durable materials that could better stand up to radiation. Once I started to envision how much around me would survive nuclear fall-out, very little was left. In fact, this could explain why most of what remains over such time scales is either stone, biological remains, metal or pottery.

But the places where they're found aren't radioactive. There's plenty of radioactive sites with fossils (the Morrison bone beds are the classic example of this) but there are no artifacts found in association with these areas.

But tech isn't the only trace of a civilization. Cities and roads change the density of the land in such a way that the traces remain long after they've been overgrown or even buried under soil.

Most of our land fill content would not last for tens of thousands of years if subjected to a nuclear blast. Most metals commonly found in a household would rust and disintegrate. Ceramics with lead-based glazes should survive but little else would (see Hiroshima accounts).

But the shape of the landfills remain. Furthermore, in a global civilization (that would be contrary to Plato's version) there would be lost objects outside of cities... in gathering places (family estates) or work spaces (farms, mines) or resource areas (things stuck in lakes all over the place to deliver water to the filtration and purification plants in cities.) You'd see concentrated aggregations of certain types of chemicals in a plant ground (stored and spilled chemicals, buttons from uniforms, etc, etc.)

Many on this website wouldn't believe the things my research group is able to do because they are so convinced the origins of life, for instance, is a persuit only gods may partake of.

You might want to read more closely some of the posts. We have at least one PhD here (he's genuine. I know enough about his field to be able to spot a fraud) and quite a few other tech people with Masters' degrees who work in the sciences. Even among the non-degreed folk there's a fair amount of knowledge and sophistication. Several of our members work with chemists.

Don't sell us short.

Perhaps references to Atlantis in other cultures posted on the Internet from library material (including an ivy-league university's collections I can access on my own) are ancient fiction.
Actually, there aren't any other references or even stories of similar cultures. The model constructed by Plato has all the earmarks of early Greek thinking, including the rule of the educated elite. The Egyptians (from whom Plato said in his tales that the story is derived) had no such stories.

However, it is interesting that such ancient tales would be so commonly reproduced in our global culture.

They aren't. Check your sources.

Granted, Athens did kick Atlantis' tail acccording to Plato but this could be little more than national pride on his part.

Agreed, certainly. But as I said, there aren't any other similar tales and this one has some very Greek-centric points about it that indicate it's purely Greek in origin.

Native American tales had no reason to include flying vehicles, sky worlds, little people, or other beings of astronomical origin but they do.

No flying vehicles, sorry, and the other material is being taken out of context. You might like to read up on what the Native Americans themselves have to say about this.

Although I do not know any archaeologists, I do know a fair number of paleontologists and they find my arguments valid.

I know a couple of 'em, too -- my guys are currently heavily into the Cretaceous. Fascinating folks. More to the point, I know a flock of archaeologists from around the world and I know scads of anthropologists.

You might enjoy going on a dig (either as coursework or as a part of a pay your way team) someday. It'll give you some interesting new views of the world and how this kind of evidence is derived. There's few anthropologists working with myth nowadays (Levy-Strauss' work is something I seriously recommend) but I suspect your views have been biased by accepting some website material as fact and not going back to sources.

I preach "go to the original source" until folks are tired of it. But if you went back to the oldest epigraphic collections of stories, you'd find that there is no presence of anything like Atlantis.

There are no ways to test the validity of this argument but I am willing to consider the possibility that materials used by a futuristic culture might be so foreign to us we would have to describe them in terms of more familiar, if inaccurate ways (i.e., thunderbird = airplane).

Actually, there are ways of testing that. You just haven't hung around enough anthropologists and science fiction authors.