Wow. Do you know that your cat example is a perfect example of how quantum physics works? Maybe there was an invisible cat there, but that you wuold have to be damn smart to being able to proove it? Anyway, until someone can proove that cat was indeed there, or still is there, being invisible and all, I'll sit here and won't make any conclusions.

Originally posted by Masonic Light


Perhaps. But there is a serious flaw in watcherofthesky’s argument that has not yet been addressed. He (or she) seems to be saying something to the effect that if the chair in the corner of the room had an invisible cat in it, it would appear to be empty. The chair now appears to be empty; therefore, it must have an invisible cat in it.
I am neither a Roman Catholic nor a Knight of Columbus, nor am I particularly sympathetic to that Church. But I try to remain unbiased on the issues, and refuse to make judgment on anything based only on hearsay. No evidence has been offered to support the charge that the KofC are involved in mob activity, only anonymous claims without documentation. I am all too familiar with similar tactics, equally unfounded, being used against my own fraternity.
Therefore, I’d request watcherofthesky to post some sort of evidence backing up the allegation. Otherwise, I’m forced to conclude that the chair is just plain old empty without recourse to invisible cats.

Fiat Lvx.

How can you prove something like people who belong to the mafia belonging to certain groups ???
There are mafia who attend catholic church ....are there not......
I know mafia ....have met mafia and i will tell you they go to church ....belong to secret societies and own buisness's that look completely innocent....would you like me to offer you evidence that they own small buisness's or is that an invisible cat in a chair??? or that they go to church....?

Ive provided my last two links that show politicians in the knights of malta belong are affiliated with the mafia.....
What kind of proof would you have me provide ...?
would you like me to go to some mafia people who belong to the knights of columbus and ask them for an interview ?
"
Say Vinny could you tell me how you belong to the mafia and participate in the knights of columbus ??
ludicrous.............
Have you ever met mafioso ????
I have ....
Have you ever met a bookie who is a mafia bookie?
I have....
could i go up to said bookie and say "could you tell me how you make book and how you pay your mafia buddys a percentage to allow you to make book in this town....
I have a friend who tried to make book in a small town and it involved only about several hundred dollars a week ....do you know what the mafia bookies told him ?
They said you are not going to do this...get it ....my friend said o.k.
would you like me to provide proof of this ?
possibly and affadavit signed by my friend? and ill send it to you...
what proof would you require ....
im not making baseless acqusations on some rumor i heard.

[Edited on 7-5-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
How can you prove something like people who belong to the mafia belonging to certain groups ???
There are mafia who attend catholic church ....are there not......

Of course there are. But we shouldn’t throw the baby out with the bath water. There are unethical and even criminal people that belong to all churches and religious groups. But this doesn’t mean those churches sanction criminal activity. John Calvin had Servetus burned at the stake for heresy. But these doesn’t mean that Presbyterians and Reformed Baptists are murderers.

I know mafia ....have met mafia and i will tell you they go to church ....belong to secret societies and own buisness's that look completely innocent....would you like me to offer you evidence that they own small buisness's or is that an invisible cat in a chair??? or that they go to church....?

The mafia is a secret society, and a criminal one. I’m not denying that. I’m only questioning your claim that the Catholic fraternal order Knights of Columbus is involved in mafia activity. There may be a few Knights who are involved in criminal activity, but the organization is not and, like the Masonic fraternity, expels any members who are found guilty of committing crimes.

Fiat Lvx.

what im saying masonic light is that there are knights of columbus who are mafia not that the knights are supporting this......

you can beieve this or not it doesnt matter to me ....

There are towns that the only people who belong to the knights of columbus belong to the mafia.....you can believe that or choose not to ...it doesnt matter to me.

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
There are mafia who attend catholic church ....are there not......
I know mafia ....have met mafia and i will tell you they go to church ....belong to secret societies and own buisness's that look completely innocent....would you like me to offer you evidence that they own small buisness's or is that an invisible cat in a chair??? or that they go to church....?

There may be mafioso who are using the KofC in their area for illicit purposes. That would not necessarily make the KofC evil.
I am reminded of the scene in the Godfather where the Don is at a Church function, perhaps a relataive's Baptism, when several hits he has ordered take place. That does not make the Church evil. And, I know that waas a fictional example I used to make my point.
**Although, I think the Church have an agenda that involves more than saving souls.**

And like I pointed out earlier, charity based fraternities are perfect laundry mills. Who knows how many "anonymous" contributions they receive which may be blood stenched drug money? And then hire contactors who share a common economy to build hospitals or whatever. Just a thought.....

Originally posted by Camelopárdalis
And like I pointed out earlier, charity based fraternities are perfect laundry mills. Who knows how many "anonymous" contributions they receive which may be blood stenched drug money? And then hire contactors who share a common economy to build hospitals or whatever. Just a thought.....

your right ...what a perfect place to launder money.....its a charity....tax free...ok boys go out with those collection cans cause we got a half million here we need to launder.....

Hehe. You almost sound like a pro

In my search for a K of C ring, I came across this forum. I am a member of the Knights of Columbus, and hold an executive position in my council, I am also a 4th Degree member.

The Knights of Columbus is a highly honorable organization of men that profess to be "practical" (Obedient to the laws of God, and the commandments and precepts of the church) Catholics. We have four principles, Charity, Unity, Fraternity and Patriotism.

Great good for the poor, handicapped, less fortunate etc.. is done by this organization. I don't know where you get the idea that it is a front to launder money for the mafia. This is pretty crazy, and I've never heard that before until here.

The Knights of Columbus is not a secret society. The only thing kept secret are the ceremonials of the order, so that initiates won't have their experience ruined by already knowing what will occur during their initiation. Every thing else we do is done in the public eye.

Pick up a copy of "Columbia" (a magazine produced by the Knights of Columbus for it's members) if you can, and you will see all the great work done internationally by this Catholic Fraternal Order.

I'm proud to be a member of this organization, and get involved as much as possible. We raise money for local charities, and something I personally get involved with is a substance abuse poster contest for the 3 elementary schools under our jurisdiction.

It is very uncharitable to spread slander about this order that has done so much good, and continues to do so, for the less fortunate all around the world.

CC

well cheif ......where do you live ..? what region of the country.???

not saying they dont do good some places.....but in other ......they are highly populated by people in the mafia.....thats not conjecture either....

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
alright .........now im gonna put my two cents in of what i know of the Knights.

I personally know of people who are in the Knights of Columbus .....note: i dont personally know them ....I know who they are.

Depending on what part of America you live in..... The Knights are heavily infiltrated with Mafioso in the north of the country and i know of towns where the only members who belong to the knights of columbus belong to the mafia and they use it as a cover with all there nice little fund raisers for handicapped kids and scholarships and what not....so if you think there is nothing sinister about the Knights i can tell you your WRONG !!!
Just like John Gotti and all his nice little 4th of july parties and helping out the community get togethers...its just a front and distraction to carry out illegal activities...im not saying its like that every where but i know its like that in some regions.

[Edited on 1-5-2004 by watcheroftheskies]

I am a second degree (out of 4 degrees-4th being the highest) KoC. While I no longer practice in the Catholic Religion I am Catholic by baptism and Confirmation and still considered a knight of columbus. I went through my initiation at 18 and participated in initiations thereafter. I was at the time a big part of the KoC. This was in a small southern town in Tennessee-where I no longer live. Saying it's a Catholic Fraternity is pretty well accurate. We had a clubhouse stocked with beer and food and a pool table. We had weekly members only meetings. and I can tell you that the initiation is rather...ecentric. However, aside from our cerimonies (initiation etc. there was nothing secret about it. We really did nothing except fund raisers for the church and hang out. We had a softball team and weekly catfish fries to raise money. Keep in mind the average KoC is a third or fourth degree and over the age of 40. We had 50 something members with three or for new initiates every year. You aren't recruited or anything like that. If you wish to join you simply show up and they intiate you. Members rarely stayed especially the younger ones. With regards to the issues of the north that really doesnt mean anything. First of all Every single individual parish(church) has its own KoC. Where i currently live there are 45 Catholic parishes. Thats 45 KoC groups in one city. Yes it's possible that the Mob is involved in one or two of them and as far as higher up in the church-(ie pope level) I have no clue and niether does 99% of the KoC in this country. The KoC is really nothing more than men in a parish, most of whom are retired, having there own little "boys only" club. I've been to meetings in other parishes around the US and they were all the same. Just guys sitting around, playing cards-pool-watching TV, Drinking beer and talking about fund raising and various other church events (like paying for the youth group toi go to six flags). All in all The KoC is nothing of importance. Just thought you guys might enjoy someones POV that was an inactive member.

Originally posted by watcheroftheskies
well cheif ......where do you live ..? what region of the country.???

not saying they dont do good some places.....but in other ......they are highly populated by people in the mafia.....thats not conjecture either....

BTW just want to throw this in-

Generally speaking, Northern America Mafia=Italian or of Italian Bloodline=Catholic

So yeah your gonna find Mafia in the catholic church, your also going to find mafia in the KoC, oh and in the Police department, oh and the government, and schools, and lets not forget the unions and in the night club business, oh and the restaraunt business, and movie theater, car dealerships etc. My point being that in those specific regions the mafia is saturated in everything so really theres nothing special about them being in the KoC.

Lythium... no harm intended but it sounds to me like you just have a mafia
issue. Maybe your parents watched the Godfather too many times.

I am not throwing stones as I have my own paranoia issues, but still
you make it sound like the mafia is under every rock & leaf.

I personally have no feelings for or against the mafia... have known members in fact that were very good people,, you see I judge on the person not the organization. There are always bad eggs even in the most upstanding organization!

power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely ... its as simple as that

Well, if there are Knights that are involved in illegal, illicit, or forbidden societies by the church, those Knights if discovered, would be booted out of the order.

The order does not tolerate those invovled in criminal activity, and this would be grounds for dismissal from the order, it's part of our constitution and laws.

CC

One of my duties as a council executive member, is as a Trustee. Every penny that comes in and out of the Council funds are accounted for, to the penny, and audited annually, and reported to Supreme Council.

A sudden influx of money into the council would be noticed....and funds can not be spent anywhere other than given to charity, or part of operating expenses such as postage etc....

A close watch is kept on council funds, by Trustee's and the Financial Secretary.

There is no way a council could operate based on funds from the mafia.

CC

[Edited on 26-5-2004 by chief_counsellor]

Originally posted by woulfgar
Lythium... no harm intended but it sounds to me like you just have a mafia
issue. Maybe your parents watched the Godfather too many times.

I am not throwing stones as I have my own paranoia issues, but still
you make it sound like the mafia is under every rock & leaf.

I personally have no feelings for or against the mafia... have known members in fact that were very good people,, you see I judge on the person not the organization. There are always bad eggs even in the most upstanding organization!

power corrupts absolute power corrupts absolutely ... its as simple as that

No harm done-

Honestly I could care less about the Mafia and not really all that interested in them. I don't think they are under every rock, just was trying to make a point. I was trying to say that just because the Mafia may be in the KoC in that area that has nothing to do with the KoC and it being some evil or illegal sect. In the areas inhabited by the mafia there are members in any aspect of life. Just trying to make the point that finding a mafia member in the KoC is as about as significant as finding anywhere else.

[Edited on 27-5-2004 by Lythium]

I am a third degree member of the Knights. When I was younger I too used to think the knights were a secret society but trust me it is the opposite. The only secrets are the ceremonies and that is so it doesn’t ruin it for anyone joining. Any information you want on the knights is on the internet even the name of officer positions. The council I am in does many charity events and fund raisers. As for “mafia laundering” there is none. There are two positions that handle funds, one is the financial secretary and the other is the treasurer. This way no one person handles all of the funds. Then there are 3 trustees who over look the accounts and funds. Also a couple of post before a individual said he was a second degree knight. This might be untrue since you do the second and third degree in one day so you are either a first or third degree or even fourth.

pbrez, it is common practice in Ontario for degrees to be held seperately. Councils in Ontario mostly prefer to do each degree on a seperate occasion. When a DD tried to hold more than 1 degree in a day here where I live, it was frowned upon by a majority of the councils.

So it is not impossible to be a 2nd degree. Many Districts have each degree on seperate days, maybe this is more common of practice in Canada.

I send you a U2U, have you received it yet PBREZ?

Wow.... uh, yea. Knights aren't that illegal. They are a legitament non-profit organization. And they are not that secretive. Sure they have secret investitures ceromonies (so do the Squires, though I am not about to divulge what happens there) but everybody knows about the Knights. They are worldwide and, as such, known throughout the world so how are they that they come to be a secret society? The have recruiting in broad daylight and brouchures for goodness sakes!

Yours in Christ,
Squire_3837133