Zen philosphy

"The void is no mere emptiness, but is real, free and existing. It is the source from which all things arise and return. It cannot be seen, touched or known, yet it exists and is freely used. It has no shape, size, colour or form, and yet all that we see, hear, feel and touch is "it". It is beyond intellectual knowing and cannot be grasped by the ordinary mind. When we suddenly awake to the realization that there is no barrier, and has never been seen, one realizes that one is all things, mountains, rivers, grasses, trees, sun, moon, stars, universe are all oneself. There is no longer a division or barrier between myself and others, no longer any feeling of alienation or fear. Realizing this, results in true compassion. Other people and things are not seen as apart from oneself, on the contrary, as one's own body."

Bruce Lee

I like this thread, maybe we can pump some life back into her?

A little Zen:

Do not seek to follow
the footsteps of the
men of old; seek what
they sought
- Basho

The Way is not
difficult; only there
must be no wanting
or not wanting.
- Chao-chou

Easy is right. Begin right
And you are easy.
Continue easy and you are right.
The right way to go easy
Is to forget the right way
And forget the the going is easy.
- Chuang-tzu

What happens to the hole when the cheese is gone?
- Bertolt Brecht, Western koan

One cannot step twice into the same river.
- Herakleitos

In walking, just walk.
In sitting, just sit. Above
all, don't wobble.
- Yun-men

The map is not the territory.
- Alfred Korzbyski

A monk asked Yueh-shan, "What does one think of while sitting?"
"One thinks of not thinking," the Master replied.
"How does one think of not-thinking?" the monk asked.
"Without thinking," the Master said.
- Zen mondo

Zen Story;
Two monks were once travelling together down a muddy road. A heavy rain was falling. Coming around a bend, they met a lovely girl in a silk kimono and sash, unable to cross the intersection.
"Come on, girl," said the first monk. Lifting her in his arms, he carried her over the mud.
The second monk did not speak again until that night when they reached a lodging temple. Then he no longer could restrain himself. "We monks don't go near females," he said. "It is dangerous. Why did you do that?"
"I left the girl there, the first monk said. "Are you still carrying her?"

Taoist Mondo:
One day Chuang-tzu and a friend were walking along a riverbank. "How delightfully the fishes are enjoying themselves in the water!" Chuang-tzu exclaimed.
"You are not a fish," his friend said. "How do you know whether or not the fishes are enjoying themselves?"
"You are not me," Chuang-tzu said. "How do you know that I do not know that the fishes are enjoying themselves?"

Zen Parable:
A man walking across a field encounters a tiger. He fled, the tiger chasing after him. Coming to a cliff, he caught hold of a wild vine and swung himself over the edge. The tiger sniffed at him from above. Terrified, the man looked down to where, far below, another tiger had come, waiting to eat him. Two mice, one white and one black, little by little began to gnaw away at the vine. The man saw a luscious strawberry near him. Grasping the vine in one hand, he plucked the strawberry with the other. How sweet it tasted!

This last one reminds me of the scene in Fight Club where Tyler Durden holds a gun to a gas station clerk's head and tells him he's gonna kill him unless he pursues his dreams. Tyler said, after letting the man go, that tomarrow will be the most beautiful day of the clerks life; his breakfast will taste better than any meal you or I has ever tasted. Try watching Fight Club while thinking about buddhism. There seems to be many similarities. Also, when Tyler is building an army for "project mayhem" he forces the applicants to wait out side for 3 days without encouragement. This is like zen monistaries forcing applicants to wait outside for 5 days while the monks try to persuade the applicants to leave, testing their commitment.

edit: of course after typing most of that - the one I copied and pasted has the typo!

[edit on 9/7/2007 by ViolatoR]

Pacifiers for colicky minds

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
The (Zen) student opened the Bible and read from St. Matthew: "And why take ye thought for raiment? Consider the lilies of the field... Take therefore no thought for the morrow, for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself."

Gasan said: "Whoever uttered those words I consider an Enlightened man."

The student continued reading: "Ask and it shall be given you, seek and ye shall find, knock and it shall be opened unto you. For everyone that asketh receiveth and he that seeketh findeth..."

Gasan said, etc.

The Sermon on the Mount is nice.

Unfortunately it is not true. If you take no thought for the morrow, you may not live to see it out. If obtaining something was as easy as asking for it, every pauper would be a prince -- or rather, we should all be paupers.

The world is a hard place. All beings must make a living.

Buddhism is just as impractical. It is suitable only for rich and sophisticated people, or for those who have no shame about imposing on the generosity of decent folk who actually work for a living. The Buddha himself was aware of this, which is why he resisted formulating a lay rule for Buddhists until the clamour for one became inuspportable.

Zen, the Sermon on the Mount and other 'shouldbegoods' can be very beautiful. They are also effective pacifiers for colicky minds. But their 'wisdom' applies only if the belly is full and the body warm and dry. If your condition is otherwise, Zen will not improve it; it will merely habituate you to it and probably bring you an early, unnecessary death into the bargain.

If you take no thought for the morrow, you may not live to see it out. If obtaining something was as easy as asking for it, every pauper would be a prince -- or rather, we should all be paupers.

Let me ask you a question - can you bring your riches with you when you Die? What did Jesus say = seek not Earthly Riches - seek the Riches of the Kingdom of Heaven. The Buddha taught us that it is Materialism (more specifically Desire) that ties us to this world & is a source of Suffering. He also taught the "Middle Way" after he realized (from experience) that an Extreme Ascetic life was also not the way. We must learn to BALANCE the Material World with the Spiritual World.

But their 'wisdom' applies only if the belly is full and the body warm and dry. If your condition is otherwise, Zen will not improve it; it will merely habituate you to it and probably bring you an early, unnecessary death into the bargain.

Not True. Zen (& Buddhism in General) teaches that all is Impermanent. Therefore when Joyous Occasions happen the practice is not too become too Elated (it will pass) & when Bad Fortune happens the practice is not to become too Discouraged (it will pass). In this way the Zen Practitioner's MIND is ALWAYS Balanced & ready for ANY SITUATION in which it might find itself.

[edit on 8-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 8-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Let me ask you a question - can you bring your riches with you when you Die?

Bring them where? When I die, I'll be dead. I won't be going anyplace. And neither will you.

But in the meantime, we have to live. We don't need riches for that, but who wants to live in poverty and want?

What did Jesus say = seek not Earthly Riches - seek the Riches of the Kingdom of Heaven.

Yes, he said quite a lot of silly things, as young idealists appalled at the cruelty and selfishness of the world often do. Unfortunately for the poor lad, he was crucified before he had a chance to grow up properly.

We must learn to BALANCE the Material World with the Spiritual World.

Where is this place, the 'Spiritual World'? What is 'spirit'?

Originally posted by Astyanax
But their 'wisdom' applies only if the belly is full and the body warm and dry. If your condition is otherwise, Zen will not improve it; it will merely habituate you to it and probably bring you an early, unnecessary death into the bargain.

Not True. Zen (& Buddhism in General) teaches that all is Impermanent.

Common sense teaches that if you don't eat well and wrap up warm you will be very impermanent indeed. Especially if you're out meditating in the winter moonlight.

[edit on 11-9-2007 by Astyanax]

Originally posted by XphilesPhan
If this were taught in schools, would this not vilate the seperation of church and state that secularists hold so dear? secularism is a two lane road. There is a little zen for you.

Buddhism is often thought of as a religion. In reality, nothing could be further from the truth. Buddhism is a philosophy -- a way of living life through a zen perspective.

In recent times, we have seen the popularity of "mindfulness" as a way to treat chronic pain, anxiety and even post traumatic stress disorder and borderline personality disorders.

In essence, "mindfulness" is the practice of Buddhist philosophy of "being in the present". It is the skill of observation without judgment. As such, I cannot see how it would be any sort of violation of "separation of Church and State". How could it possibly be wrong to try to teach our kids to be mindful? How could it be wrong to teach our kids to be less judgmental or to try to find happiness and fulfillment within themselves instead of through external stimulation?

but who wants to live in poverty?

Who says that you have to live in poverty or be an Ascetic/Monk to Practice Zen? You DON'T - I just got done talking about the "Middle Way" that Buddha taught.

Also by Impermanent I mean that we are all HUMAN & we must ALL Die eventually. I was not talking about WHEN - nor did I say that you have to live a life of Misery & Suffering until then. As a Matter of Fact the Buddha set forth to SOLVE the problem of Suffering & that he did.

Yes I do believe that the Universe is Multi-Dimensional & that this is only ONE World/Reality/Realms out of many.

If you don't know what "Spirit" is then you have bigger problems than I can help you with. Honestly I feel bad for you Materialists.

[edit on 11-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Originally posted by pai mei
I think Zen teaching requires a Zen master, not just any teacher

Zen is best learned from morons and the terminally foolish.

Originally posted by Seraphim_Serpente
Who says that you have to live in poverty or be an Ascetic/Monk to Practice Zen?

Well, I certainly didn't. I said that if you followed the advice of the Sermon on the Mount you would live in poverty and want.

And you can practise Zen or any other form of Buddhism you like without being a monk, my friend, but only monks get to go to Nirvana. If you have heard different anywhere else, you have heard wrong. Read the relevant Pali texts.

Also by Impermanent I mean that we are all HUMAN & we must ALL Die eventually. I was not talking about WHEN.

No need to shout. I know what you meant.

As a Matter of Fact the Buddha set forth to SOLVE the problem of Suffering & that he did.

Matter of fiddlesticks, you mean. Last time I looked around the world there was plenty of suffering in it, and Buddhists were hurting as much as anybody.

Honestly I feel bad for you Materialists.

Yes, just like a blind man who feels sorry for the sighted, because they can never experience the richness and variety of tactile sensation he enjoys.

Is analyzation and investigation the way of Zen?


Maybe! Maybe not!

[edit on 12-9-2007 by whaaa]

a Bit of Zen for this modern time:
A toad came to stream and as he was preparing to cross a scorpion asked the toad to carry him across the stream on his back. The Toad said," I will not carry you for you are a scorpion and will sting me halfway across and I shall die." The Scorpion replied ," If I sting you halfway across, we will both die". The Toad thought about this and finally agreed to carry the scorpion on his back. Halfway across the Toad felt a burning sting and realizing what had happened asked the Scorpion," why did you sting me now we will both surely die." The Scorpion replied," It is my Nature, I cannot help this."

The American idea of success is indeed very backward. Shouldn't we use inner peace and harmony as the highest attainable goals in life. Look at all thew 'successful' people out there, are they any happier than the monk at the foot of the mountain?

Not America's idea but everybody's

Originally posted by 420prajna
The American idea of success is indeed very backward.

You don't say what this is. Do you mean material success? Wealth, property, a public reputation? Power?

No doubt the American ideal of success includes these things.

How about a happy family life and children that are healthy and a credit to their parents? Most Americans would regard these, too, as attributes of success.

Oddly enough, the European, Asian and African ideals of success are based on precisely the same things. This is not 'the American idea of success'; it's the human ideal of success.

In any culture you care to name, wealth, reputation, power and posterity have been generally regarded as the defining elements of success. In fact, if you look at social animals, then power and successful breeding are once again the attributes of success.

That is why religious and secular philosophers all over the world have had to insist so hard that success should actually be defined in other ways. Among these philosophers we can count Confucius, Gautama Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus and numerous others. Mohammed was an exception; Muslims, lucky fellows, aren't taught that poverty is somehow 'holier' than wealth.

Shouldn't we use inner peace and harmony as the highest attainable goals in life.

Once our bellies are full and our comforts and posterity secured, most certainly. Inner peace and harmony are expensive luxuries. You can splurge on them instead of spending your hard-earned resources on the necessities of life, but only at the cost of physical misery, possibly death, for yourself and your family.

Look at all thew 'successful' people out there, are they any happier than the monk at the foot of the mountain?

Yes, on the whole they probably are. I've met a lot of monks in my time, and with very few exceptions they've been miserable sods.

Originally posted by Astyanax
I've met a lot of monks in my time, and with very few exceptions they've been miserable sods.

Maybe this is just your perception.

I live a stones throw from a Zen center and the Roshi, monks, wannabes and groupies, are some of the most funloving, gentle, well adjusted, free, and happy, beautiful people I have ever encountered.

Please come visit us in the Mountians/high desert of New Mexico.

reply to post by Astyanax


I do get your point.
A lof of people take advantage of peoples 'do no harm' attitude.

I myself lived a very zen existence for months after an NDE, however one day I reached a tolerance point of people walking all over me, using my innactions for their own purposes.
I must admit, the feeling to act and 'smyte' these people was overwhelming.
I ended up withdrawing association with these people.
Some people just do not want to see the bigger picture and that makes life for those around them very much more difficult.

I remember thinking, people like that is why enlightened ones live on mountain tops, alone.

Now, I find myself sinking into instinctual behavioural patterns of survival.
It is VERY hard to turn the other cheek every day in your life while you are being slapped constantly.

The old story ' you will be rewarded in the afterlife', just isn't enough comfort for me somedays.

but only monks get to go to Nirvana. If you have heard different anywhere else, you have heard wrong. Read the relevant Pali texts.

The Pali Texts refer to Theravada (i.e. Orthodox) Buddhism. Zen is part of the Mahayanna Tradition of Buddhism. It is said that Buddha - like Jesus - taught Students only so much that they were capable of understanding in Public. If they were capable of more then they would receive "Special Teachings" from the Buddha in Private (Christ was also known to have done this).

One of these teachings is that there is no-self (Anatta), therefore if others are still suffering than it is YOU that continues to Suffer. Therefore, although the Bodhisattvas has already attained Enlightenment - he puts off entrance into "Ultimate Nirvana" in order to Enlighten/Save other Sentient Beings. THIS is Mahayana Buddhism.

Mahayana teaches us that Ultimately: Samsara IS Nirvana & Nirvana IS Samsara. The Buddha would agree & if you were Enlightened - so would you.

Do not interpret that to mean that Luxurious Living in Samsara = Nirvana - it does not - that would merely be Attachment to the things that Bind us to this world. All that is meant is that Ultimately everything is Empty (Sunyata). THIS is Zen.


[edit on 14-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 14-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 14-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

[edit on 14-9-2007 by Seraphim_Serpente]

Zen is like a heady wine.
Everyone reads the label on the bottle.
Hardly anyone tastes the wine.

I'm sorry, I just find it funny when white people talks about being buddhist. This 50yrold guy at my work is a buddhist and he prays and meditate every week, every year he goes on a zen sabbaital and I never take him seriously. it's a trend for them, like schlumming.

Zen is a cultural consciousness, not a philosophy, sorry.

Originally posted by chickeneater.

Zen is a cultural consciousness, not a philosophy, sorry.

Zen is what ever you want it to be. That's why they call it Zen. Sorry.

Originally posted by whaaa

Originally posted by chickeneater.

Zen is a cultural consciousness, not a philosophy, sorry.

Zen is what ever you want it to be. That's why they call it Zen. Sorry.

I recently read a book by Alan Watts, who begins the book on Buddhism by describing the historical and cultural setting for Hinduism. The long and the short of it is that Hinduism is tied to the culture and Buddhism is not tied to anything.

Alan Watts, Buddhism The Religion of No-Religion
In India this worldview is tied up with a whole culture involving every circumstance of everyday life ... Hinduism ... is a religious culture. Being a Hindu really involves living in India. Because of the differences of climate, of arts, crafts, and technology, you cannot be a Hindu in the full sense in Japan or in the United States.

Buddhism is Hinduism stripped for export. The Buddha was a reformer in the highest sense: someone who wants to go the original form, or to re-form it for the needs of a certain time.
...
From the Buddhist standpoint all concepts are wrong, in the same way that nothing is really what you say it is. Is this a stool? When I turn it over - now it's a waste basket. When I beat on it, it's a drum. So this thing is what it does. Anything you can use it for is what it is. If you have a rigid idea that it is a stool then you can only sit on it, you're kind of stuck. But if you see all these other things as well, then you suddenly see that anything can be everything.

Buddhism is not a cultural consciousness, and it is not a philosophy. Now disregard what I just said and you will have it.