Zapruder frames show driver killed JFK

Originally posted by jblaze
Witness statements regarding what they saw:



1. Mary Moorman - school teacher standing next to Jean Hill. She said she saw Greer shooting back but thought he was shooting back at the assassin. SOURCE: Warren Commission and taped interview by Fred Newcomb.

2. Jean Hill - Jean Hill saw what happened too, but when she tried to bring up the subject of a gun being fired in the car, Senator Arlen Spector (a 33rd degree Mason) would change the subject or say "it's time for a cup of coffee."

3. Austin P. Miller - Texas Louisiana Freight Bureau, who stood on the railway overpass overlooking Elm Street was asked by Arlen Spector where the shots came from: His reply was "from right there in the car." Senator Spector just went on to the next question, never asking Miller any specifics. From: Warren Report, New York Times edition, p. 82.

4. Clinton J. Hill. Jacqueline Kennedy's bodyguard reports in Vol. II, pp 138-139 of the Warren Commission Volumes: "I jumped from the car, realizing that something was wrong, and ran to the presidential limousine. Just as I reached it, there was another sound. I think I described it in my statement as though someone was shooting a revolver into a hard object...it seemed to have some type of echo."

5. Hugh Betzner - Had picture published in Life magazine and was standing right next to the drivers side of the motorcade: He saw a gun in the hand of one of the secret service agents and heard a sound "like firecrackers going off in the car."Link to Betzner’s official statement: www.jfk-online.com... Source: taped interview with Fred Newcomb.

6. Senator Ralph Yarborough - 3rd car back "Smelled gunpowder in the car." (statement made to press but not to Warren Commission) He was challenged by Newcomb on the phone and he then said "I must have smelled it coming down from the book depository".





Where did you get this information? I live in Dallas and have been to the site of the assassination many times but have not known about all these witness statements. The only thing I knew was that there were some witness reports of 'puffs of smoke inside the car'.

reply to post by Sicul2012


Why is it so hard for people to accept that one lonely little coward, was able to take down a giant? Oswald did it. Period.

For every argument you can put forth saying he couldn't/didn't, there is an equally compelling argument saying he did. Once you can accept it and wrap your head around the idea that evil actually prevailed this time, it becomes easier to accept the rest of the world.

You're all lying to yourselves and you need to stop. Spit happens, sad, lonely, evil men can and will change the world. If we let them. And it will continue until we stop lying to ourselves.

Originally posted by Focus
The limo has stopped in the zappruder film it doesn't show that, meaning it had been removed, why would the driver stop the car if it weren't for shooting the president himself?

If he was that good, he wouldn't have to stop to shoot anybody. You could just put the gun in your left hand and fire back over your right shoulder using the mirror to aim, just like Annie Oakley.

reply to post by Rising Against


What I find strange in the video you posted is that something flys upwards from Kennedy's head.
It looks like he may have been shot from below the head.
Okay...bit far fetched but could the seat he was sitting on have been rigged up to fire a bullet up through his upper back continuing to his head ?

Just a thought.....

well after all, it was you and me

poppycock.

the other folks in the car would have seen muzzleflash, and there would be powder residue left behind from a PBR shot

reply to post by syrinx high priest


he told Connelly too duck.

reply to post by BobAthome

the driver didnt shoot him in the head. the guy next too the driver.
turned gun out, used drivers shoulder,, pulled trigger,,

I'm confused, used his (and his, the driver's, name is William Greer btw) shoulder in what way? To hide behind in some way, to use as a decoy, to create an illusion?

So he’s supposed to anticipate the actual exact position of a man with a camera by the name of Abraham Zapruder now? Hm.

Also, what possible reason, what possible motive would Roy Kellerman (that's the guy sat next to Greer in case you was wondering) have for murdering the United States President right out in the open like that? It makes absolutely no sense. The secret service weren't anywhere near distant from the Kennedy family you know, they were incredibly close, they were friends with them. And even if they were not, I don't see why a man in Kellerman's position would be a chosen assassin, the SS aren't just randomly chosen individuals right off the street here..

And to then think he could get away with it too - after all, why not try to escape, he didn’t know if anyone saw and since there was hundreds of witnesses, the only assumption can be is he was seen, especially by those inside the limousine.

The SS aren't just randomly chosen individuals right off the street here..

Anyway, how do you plan on proving in any way, shape or form that Kellerman was/could have been responsible for the attack? I'm sure we'd all like to see what you can come up with.

Mrs Kennedy thinks she is next,, try too get away,,,,drivers buddy,,pivot back into seat,,
driver accelerates away.

If that is the case, and she's not just trying to get the hell out of there because a man's brain, hell, her actual husband’s brain had literally just exploded inches away from her, escaping being something we would all do, why didn't she react in any way to Kellerman when they arrived at Parkland? Why not at a later time after that? Why didn't she release anything in anyway, no matter how subtle, years later? Why didn't anyone in the follow up cars point towards Kellerman, perhaps those in the lead car looking back at the Presidential Limousine as well? Why did the hundreds of witnesses fail to spot him grab a gun, turn around and murder their president? And on and on a...

...Sorry, this theory makes very, very little sense. There’s no motive from him and there’s no true reason to believe for a second he could have been able to do it, let alone want to.

reply to post by Rising Against


Kellerman
thank you,,
ya research his background,, i asume all relative as well as Kellerman, has since passed.
If they have not, i retract my statement ,based upon the best available evidence.
and geometry.

reply to post by Chickensalad

Why is it so hard for people to accept that one lonely little coward, was able to take down a giant? Oswald did it. Period.

We can accept that a lone gunman could be responsible for such a thing. But whether Oswald was responsible in this case is actually quite doubtful once you get down to the facts of the case, particularly the movements of a certain police officer by the name of Marrion Baker with-in the TSDB in the minutes after the assassination, and of course the actually quite interesting well known known past of Oswald.

There's not much time for me to write it all out, and my connection is sketchy to say the least but I did post everything related to this a while ago in this thread here: www.abovetopsecret.com...

Spit happens, sad, lonely, evil men can and will change the world.

I agree that they can. But, again in this example, It's actually quite plausible that Oswald wasn't solely responsible whether responsible at all.

The fatal shot took place on Zapruder frame 313. The Warren Commission exhibit 902 matched up the same moment from the Zapruder, Nix, and Muchmore films, with images of a Secret Service re-enactment photographed from the same vantage points.

No the driver had not turned around. In the Zapruder film the driver (the entire car) is blurred but there a bright spot behind the driver, which is evidently what this guy thinks is evidence of a gun held by the driver. However, the re-enactment photo makes it pretty obvious that the bright spot is light reflected from the chrome frame where the convertible's removable bubble top would attach.

The driver had a name, William R. Greer, of the Secret Service.

en.wikipedia.org...

There were plenty of people watching and Greer would have to be seen not only by hundreds of onlookers and a shot from the driver's seat would be encumbered by the presence of both Connallys. Additionally, there would be the evidence of a bullet that would be traced to a handgun rather than a rifle. Would Greer, apart from his clean background, have agreed to participate in a conspiracy which would involve someone shooting at the car from directly behind Greer, a position that raised intolerable risks that Greer himself could be hit by one of the sniper's shots??

That this theory has surfaced nearly 50 years late suggests that - like Holocaust Denial - it is silliness that hopes to succeed only when eyewitnesses are mostly gone and memories are faded.

reply to post by Shoonra


now replace William R. Greer, with Kellerman.

Here i figured this may help it becomes obvious the bullet was not from with in the car.

Originally posted by billybob
you know what i see on the frames mentioned in the first post?
someone standing on the lawn filming the car as it passes.
wonder where that film went?

It may be found a hundred years from now in an old foot locker is some old house. I think people that know of anysuch footage are too afraid to every say anything.

Originally posted by Smack
The driver's behavior is at least suspicious. There can be no doubt that the murder of JFK was a conspiracy involving criminal elements of the U.S. Government. Regardless of who fired the shot, he was killed because he became a threat to the shadow Government.

Not just the drivers behavior, but all the secret service that are supposed to be following/surrounding the car also. I'm not going to post the video because this is ATS and I'm going to assume most of you have already seen it posted more than enough times. Secret service whose job it is to protect the president are clearly called away from the vehicle, and are confused about it, which is demonstrated by shrugging of shoulders among other things...

Originally posted by BobAthome
reply to post by Shoonra

 

now replace William R. Greer, with Kellerman.

Secret service Agent Roy H. Kellerman was sitting in the front righthand seat, next to the driver SS Agent Wm. R. Greer.

The same reasons that Greer could not have shot JFK also apply to Kellerman.

He was surrounded by hundreds of witnesses, including a number of cameras, shooting from the front seat would definitely have been noticed - and impeded - by the Connallys, the bullet and its effect would have been distinctive. And, of course, BOTH of the Secret Service agents in the front would have to have been part of the conspiracy for either of them to have gotten away with that shot.

reply to post by Shoonra


thank you,,
i did,,


He was surrounded by hundreds of witnesses, including a number of cameras, shooting from the front seat would definitely have been noticed

"shooting from the front seat would definitely have been noticed"

i noticed.

reply to post by Shoonra


the brake lights come on,,,then the shot is heard,,more than one,,
THEN
the car accelerates away.after a 5-7 sec delay.

Originally posted by BobAthome
reply to post by Shoonra

 

the brake lights come on,,,then the shot is heard,,more than one,,
THEN
the car accelerates away.after a 5-7 sec delay.

Hey Bob, what film did you see the brake lights come on?

Greer and Kellerman's secondary role was to keep JFK in the crossfire until the deed was accomplished. While doing so, Greer may have seen the bullet from the front penetrate the windshield causing him to slow the vehicle. It may have been "cover" for him as he brought the limo to a momentary stop.

Greer and Kellerman's primary role was accomplished while LBJ was being sworn in as President, and because of this there is no way theses two agents would have done ANYTHING in Dealey Plaza to jeopardized their primary role.

I believe one of the 2 main reasons for the editing done to the Zapruder film was to remove the "stop" to shift any thoughts away from Greer and Kellerman. The " 5-7 sec delay" had to be removed. It was the most damning piece of evidence on the unedited version of the film.

reply to post by Oldnslo

Hey Bob, what film did you see the brake lights come on?

Since doubts have been cast on the Z film with regards to alterations, here's a screen grab from the Muchmore film.

It does look like the brake lights came on:



Some have suggested Greer slowed down to allow the secret service agents in the car behind to run up to and assist. Hindsight suggests Greer should have accelerated and taken evasive action, even leaving the road if necessary.

What I don't understand, and never will, is why Kellerman, sitting in the passenger seat next to Greer, just sat there throughout the whole assassination. He should have immediately jumped up and moved back to protect the president. But he just sat there...

Here's a youtube link showing progressive frames of the brake light coming on from the Muchmore film. Warning, contains graphic images:

www.youtube.com...

have these theories been debunked and what are present day thoughts regarding the jfk assassination? found this thread because a friend of mine has been watching youtube videos about a doctored zapruder film and the possibility of the ss shooting kennedy from within the limo. i would think that someone in the car would have noticed if a gun was shot within the vehicle at kennedy. has it been proven that a ss agent shot a gun in the limo?