Church restates its stand on Freemasonry

Originally posted by FlyersFan
Now THAT is a great conspiracy. Wanna' talk about the Mass of St. Pius V and how he said NEVER NEVER, under penalty of hellfire, change the mass! And then Vatican II ... poof ... the mass is completely changed. The words are NOT the same. The prevatican II mass is completely different even though Pope Paul VI lied and said it was the same. The Novus Ordo is NOT the same as the prevatican II mass.

Oh, so a POPE "lied" but that's OK. Vatican II was a farce (according to what you're saying) but it's still "the church" and the stance against Freemasonry is OK, despite the abovestated FACT that a Supreme Pontiff "lied"

Talk about straddling the fence...

[edit on 9-3-2007 by Appak]

Originally posted by Appak
so a POPE "lied" but that's OK.

No. Its' not okay.

Vatican II was a farce

Yes it was. But the Church has decreed it so we are stuck with it.

the stance against Freemasonry is OK,

I have no opinion as to if the stance against the masons is okay or not.
The fact is that it is in place. Therefore, at this time a person can not
be a mason and a catholic. A few hundred years from now that could
change (or not). But for now, that is the rule. And as I said, I have no
opinion on if it is right or not. It is what it is.

As I said in another post, I'm a non practicing Catholic, who is a mason. I personally believe that most people who attend church, both Catholic and Protestan simply go through the motions and could care less about actual church teachings. Call it more of a social club mentality.

As I said in another post, I'm a non practicing Catholic, who is a mason. I personally believe that most people who attend church, both Catholic and Protestan simply go through the motions and could care less about actual church teachings. Call it more of a social club mentality.

mikedw

posted on 9-3-2007 at 09:16 PM (post id: 3016346) - single - this post

As I said in another post, I'm a non practicing Catholic, who is a mason. I personally believe that most people who attend church, both Catholic and Protestan simply go through the motions and could care less about actual church teachings. Call it more of a social club mentality.


I am a freemason and a protestant.I find this debate illogical on several fronts.First off, brother mike dw (if you acually are a brother), you are missing the whole point of church attendance, the point of attendance is twofold, to increase in your knowledge of the word (which in my case would be the bible) and also to FELLOWSHIP with other christians, surly someone who proports to be a freemason would know the importanc of having a social network that holds people to accord for their actions, and tries to relieve them with wise council, and through monetary means if one were close to becoming destitute, or just to help with labor if needed,repairs etc.Also the role of the church is to reflect Christ in their daily walk in life.People should be able to see my life, my morals, my ethics, the fact that I choose to do what is right,just,and correct, even when noone will know and noone is watching me because it is what is right, just, and correct, and because any deviation of such is directly analagous to moral suicide insomuch as it would cast a negative view on both the fraternity that I serve and the Lord and savior of my life, Jesus Christ.

I just don't see how you can knock the role of church in the lives of others as a "social club mentality" and belong to a "social fraternity".If you find no meaning in church service brother, that is your perogative,even if I do not agree, however freemasonry does teach that man's choice of religion/belief systems is a personal decision and his alone to make, so for you to come down on the religiosity of another is frankly offensive and unmasonic.

It has been said that going to church doesn't make one a christian more than walking into a garage makes one a car.I find all of this infighting tedious.If you are a christian, THE BLOOD OF CHRIST is what saves you.Not a pope, not a protestant church, not a priest,not a pastor,staying strong in the word and accepting Jesus perfect sacrafice for your sin.

At the end of the day Christian is Christian. my church observes the ordinace of feetwashing (not as a means to salvation, but because it is a lowly, meek, humbal way of showing servatude towards others, as evidenced by christ doing one of the lowliest societal jobs in his day), many other churchs do not, I do not believe in purgation while others do, I confess my sins directly to God through Jesus Christ, and as such feel no need to go to a priest for a confession, as I feel that the tearing of the veil in the holy of holies upon Christ's crucifixion signified the direct access to the one true god, through his son, and that we did not need sacrafices/or a clergical class to access God....HOWEVER, just because I believe these things does not make another Christian who follows the Lord differently than I do wrong. At the end of the day a christian who lives his/her life the way Christ would, and makes decisons based upon what he would do is a Christian regardless of theological disputes. Do you really think Christ cares about nitpicking over mans interpretation of Gods law? Last I checked he was AGAINST man scrutinizing so much over the letter of the law that the message of it was lost.

And to the above poster in this thread that talked about the evil done throughout the ages by the catholic church, the deaths etc, what would you advocate? That is such a loaded charge.How many people through the ages died as a result of polytheistic sacrafices to fertility gods and goddesses?How many people died so that there would be crops next season?When you get down to it, taking a life PERIOD is an offence to God who alone has the right to end life

I wasn't bashing everyone about the church social club mentality, but I have encountered a lot of churches where the members were more concerned about how they looked and how others perceived them, then what the actual teachings are. That has always annoyed me.

Take care,

Michael

brotherforchrist my man, do not talk down to your brother for his beliefs, it is arrogant and puts you in line with some of the other bigots in this thread.

I to see many Catholics and people from other religions going to Church on Sunday because they have 1. been conditioned to, 2. are forced to, 3. habit. I would also hazard a guess that 75% of Catholics especially only attend once a month or so, and many only on holidays. Ever go to Church on Sunday and you can get a front row seat, but on Easter your luck if you can stand by the back door while little kids scream they want to go back to their candy and toys.

Mike never mentioned the purpose of Church, nor why people should go, nor did he say anything on the benefits of Church.

You assumed that he was ignorant in the matter, and assumed he lacked knowledge in the going ons of Church.

I think it was rather rude and abrasive to come in and talk like that, Masons are not required to be Christian, practicing or not, I do not see it as your right to input how, when nor why he should worship.

I find your reasoning rather sad quite honestly.. you justify the murder of hundreds of thousands of Women, millions of Men in the name of God because Pagan religions (And judaism ........) sacrificed?

Please man, get over your self, try treating your brothers with respect and accept that the Church has an destructive past.

Thank you Rockpuck. I agree with everything you said. I always thought it was funny when I was growing up that at every mass during the year, most people were dressed casually, but on holidays, you could always tell the people who hardly ever went. They were dressed to the nines. Well, I have guest coming over and won't be on probably for the rest of the day, so everyone have a great day.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
brotherforchrist my man, do not talk down to your brother for his beliefs, it is arrogant and puts you in line with some of the other bigots in this thread.

I to see many Catholics and people from other religions going to Church on Sunday because they have 1. been conditioned to, 2. are forced to, 3. habit. I would also hazard a guess that 75% of Catholics especially only attend once a month or so, and many only on holidays. Ever go to Church on Sunday and you can get a front row seat, but on Easter your luck if you can stand by the back door while little kids scream they want to go back to their candy and toys.

Mike never mentioned the purpose of Church, nor why people should go, nor did he say anything on the benefits of Church.

You assumed that he was ignorant in the matter, and assumed he lacked knowledge in the going ons of Church.

I think it was rather rude and abrasive to come in and talk like that, Masons are not required to be Christian, practicing or not, I do not see it as your right to input how, when nor why he should worship.

I find your reasoning rather sad quite honestly.. you justify the murder of hundreds of thousands of Women, millions of Men in the name of God because Pagan religions (And judaism ........) sacrificed?

Please man, get over your self, try treating your brothers with respect and accept that the Church has an destructive past.

I never said that a mason was required to be a Christian, why don't you try posting something of relevance instead of flame baiting for once in your posting career?

Use mor estraw man defenses please, I find it equally abohorrant to sacrafice someone for fertility as I do to burn a witch, as I do to kill someone for their land or natural resources, maybe you should stop being condescending and trying to put your words into other peoples mouths for them.

Get over myself? I am not the one that is acting as though their opinion is the ONLY opinon here, and pretty much EVERY religion has a destructive past.It seems to me that you are the one who needs to learn lessons in respect Mr boardtroll.

Wait-a-go Rockpuck, the old and wise! I see you've already won over some new supporters here.

Now that's how you run for elections.

Brother, if you are, which I very much so doubt that you are.

Re-read your own post and see the arrogance in which you called him out on. It was unfounded and only proved your point that you completely went off topic, rambling on about something you thought he said when he didn't.

First off, brother mike dw (if you acually are a brother), you are missing the whole point of church attendance, the point of attendance is twofold, to increase in your knowledge of the word (which in my case would be the bible) and also to FELLOWSHIP with other christians, surly someone who proports to be a freemason would know the importanc of having a social network that holds people to accord for their actions, and tries to relieve them with wise council, and through monetary means if one were close to becoming destitute, or just to help with labor if needed,repairs etc.

Right, where to start.

Did he ever state any where his stance on why people go to Church? No .. as that is not the topic of discussion and merrily the product of you incoherent rambling.

Did her ever bring up fellow ship or anything in the regards to fellowship and the Church of which ever denomination .. NO .. another product of you putting your own words in his mouth to argue, apparently, with your self.

You can call me a troll all you want friend, I call you an imposter, just another fool to come in and oppress your own views of religion on others.

Churches and Masonry have little in relation to each other, while the fundamental underlaying of both organizations is essentially a social network, every human organization in some way is related to the networking ideas, communication, support and innovation.

The structure of the Church is not the topic here my Christian troll It is the Churches bigoted stance on Masonry out of ignorant fear.

If you have further problems with me feel free to u2u me, though I highly doubt I have much to say to someone ...... of your nature.

And Sweft.... I'm the old and wise now? Lol..

The Church exists for Man not Man for the Church.
The Church needs to obey its own laws before expecting the faithful to adhere to them. The Church needs to stop changing its mind every couple of decades to increase membership. The Church of Rome does not have a monopoly on Christ.

Originally posted by RWPBR
The Church needs to stop changing its mind every couple of decades to increase membership.

Give me an example of when the church has changed it's mind on something. It's stand on birth control, homosexuality, euthanisia, pre-marital sex, abortion, gay marriage..have always remained the same.

The church does not change it's mind every couple decades, but remains firm in its teachings.

The stance on Freemasonry has remained the same for over 100 years.

The Catholic Church is quite possibly one of the most fascist and evil institutions on the planet. Its evil persecution of those with free thought, playing God with nations... I can go on and on, but nothing matches the way it skewered the Christian faith and mistranslated the Bible.

Let those sheep that follow such an organization continue to do so. I, for one, won't have anything to do with something that has only survived through fear and brainwashing.

Originally posted by chief_counsellor

Originally posted by RWPBR
The Church needs to stop changing its mind every couple of decades to increase membership.

Give me an example of when the church has changed it's mind on something. It's stand on birth control, homosexuality, euthanisia, pre-marital sex, abortion, gay marriage..have always remained the same.

The church does not change it's mind every couple decades, but remains firm in its teachings.

The stance on Freemasonry has remained the same for over 100 years.

en.wikipedia.org...

Galileo was ordered to Rome to stand trial on suspicion of heresy in 1633. The sentence of the Inquisition was in three essential parts:

* Galileo was required to recant his heliocentric ideas, declaring the immobility of the sun to be "absurd in philosophy and formally heretical", and the mobility of the earth "to be at least erroneous in faith";.
* He was ordered imprisoned; the sentence was later commuted to house arrest.
* His offending Dialogue was banned; and in an action not announced at the trial, publication of any of his works was forbidden, including any he might write in the future.

The Church tried to censor his works and research because they thought it threatened their mass brainwashing.

But wait!

In 1992, it was much lauded in the news that the Catholic Church had apparently "vindicated" Galileo.

"Whoops! Never mind!"

Originally posted by chief_counsellor

Originally posted by RWPBR
The Church needs to stop changing its mind every couple of decades to increase membership.

Give me an example of when the church has changed it's mind on something. It's stand on birth control, homosexuality, euthanisia, pre-marital sex, abortion, gay marriage..have always remained the same.

The church does not change it's mind every couple decades, but remains firm in its teachings.

Vatican II, Novus Ordo, The 1983 Code of Canon Law and the quick coverup and retraction by Ratzinger...

Originally posted by RWPBR

Vatican II, Novus Ordo, The 1983 Code of Canon Law and the quick coverup and retraction by Ratzinger...

Vatican II was a return to the roots of the Church, there is nothing wrong with the Novus Ordo mass, and Pope Benedict never retracted his statement, he was taken out of context, he was quoting a Christian emporer when he made that statement, they were not his own words. The news totally blew that one out of proportion.

Also, these things do not have anything to do with the dogmatic teachings of the church, and it's stance on matters of faith and morals. An example is Freemasonry, which has been condemned by several Popes, going on 200 years now.

[edit on 15-3-2007 by chief_counsellor]

Hi Chief,

I realise you don't speak for the church an all, but... is there a chance that modern Freemasonry could be pardoned for supposed plots that went on 200 years ago?

I mean, the church hasn't offered apologies for events that have happened much more recently than that...

It's like the Bush Administration's view on enemy combatants. THEY are automatically "illegal", but the US can apparently romp around invading whomever they like.

Likewise, the Catholic Church has plotted, schemed, and taken stances against other groups, but they are happy to ban Freemasons from the flock to this day because of apparent scheming against the Church 200 years ago.

I'm not trying to pick a fight... I just think it's a bit rough.

Originally posted by Roark
Hi Chief,
I realise you don't speak for the church an all, but... is there a chance that modern Freemasonry could be pardoned for supposed plots that went on 200 years ago?

Well, an example mentioned earlier in this thread is Galilleo, and the church "apoligizing" for its dealings with him from hundreds of years ago.

However, I don't believe it is just the "plots against the church" that may or may have not been going on 200 years ago. There are witnesses in Rome that directly were impacted by masonic protests at the vatican and the like. It's the whole underlying "religiousity" of Freemasonry that is incompatible with the church's teaching. It's a whole debate in itself, and there are books written on this subject..here is one of them

Freemasonry Unmasked

Everyone should work against the Catholic Church, the fact that it continues to exist is an insult to Christianity and all of humanity.