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Church restates its stand on Freemasonry

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posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 12:19 PM
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Regent Restates Vatican's Anti-Masonry Position


ROME, MARCH 2, 2007 (Zenit.org).- The Church has not changed its ruling on Catholic membership in the Masons, said the regent of the Apostolic Penitentiary.

Bishop Gianfranco Girotti made this statement Thursday at a conference on the topic of Freemasonry held at the St. Bonaventure Pontifical Theological Faculty.
..................................................................................................


This article clearly shows that the church still has a negative stance on Freemasonry. While some will claim that the Catholic church does not ban it's members from membership, this reiterates that this is not so.




posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 12:32 PM
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Interestingly enough:



Bishop Girotti made reference to the statements of some priests who have declared publicly their membership in Masonry and called for the intervention of "their direct superiors," not excluding the possibility that "measures of a canonical character might come from the Holy See."


I would argue that the 'Church', therefore, does not have a single stance on the issue. The Vatican does.

Not surprising that Ratzinger's take on it would be carried forward while he is Pope... it's not intended to be a democratic organization.

Good find, chief_counsellor. I give this about five minutes before someone in here claims this as 'proof' that Masonry is evil.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 12:37 PM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor
some will claim that the Catholic church does not ban it's members from membership, this reiterates that this is not so.


Absolutely true.

I can't tell you how many Catholics I have run into who say that they are a Mason, and that the Church now allows. it. This is simply not true. The Church does not allow it. If a Catholic isn't officially excommunicated it's either because the priest doesn't know, doesn't care, or doesn't believe in the Church anymore.

Catholics are not allowed to be masons while still remaining Catholics in good standing. Period. Nothing has changed.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 01:24 PM
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The church fears anything that does not fall in line with its doctrines.

[edit on 8-3-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
I can't tell you how many Catholics I have run into who say that they are a Mason, and that the Church now allows. it.


It depends on what you consider 'the Church'.

Is the Church the priest and local community that you deal with, or the Vatican which you don't?

I think most Catholics would find they aren't living by 'Vatican' standards, but are more or less fine by local decree.

It begs the question... does the Vatican determine if you are a good Catholic, or not? Or is that between you and God?

In this day and age there are many that look at the Holy See as some sort of stain, some ancient relic, that has nothing to do with them.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 01:30 PM
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Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The church fears anything that does not fall in line with its brain washing doctrines.


That's a bit harsh, but has accuracy to it.

The church prospered by grabbing control and holding it... let's face it, you don't win an argument by offering alternatives. Your way is the only way, period.

But the world is a much bigger place, these days. It's much more open to different ideas. Cultures mix.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 02:16 PM
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The Holy See, the Vatican, the Pope....The Pope is the head of the Catholic church, and with the Bishops of the World guides the entire church through issues of morality and faith. You can't seperate "The Vatican" from "The Church". That's like seperating a head from the body. The Pope sits in the Vatican, and guides the church through the Cardinals and Bishops he appoints. The Catholic church is for the most part united (though some bishops and priests may try to do things on their own). The 4 marks of the Catholic Church are One, Holy, Catholic (Universal), Apostolic. We are stronger as a united body, with it's head, than seperated into thousands like the protestant churches.

That's what makes a big difference between the Catholic church and it's Protestant bretheren. We are united, as One...where protestant churches have no visible head, and have divided into thousands of churches across the globe, all with different doctrines and decrees.

There is some disunity in the church though, I can't fully state that it is One, in an ideal world it would be, however there are dissenters and schiasmatics that are trying to destroy the unity of the Catholic church.

So to reiterate, the Pope is the head of the church guided and advised by his emissaries in the Vatican, and bishops of the world...and we the people are the body of the church.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by Hobbes

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
The church fears anything that does not fall in line with its brain washing doctrines.


That's a bit harsh, but has accuracy to it.

The church prospered by grabbing control and holding it... let's face it, you don't win an argument by offering alternatives. Your way is the only way, period.

But the world is a much bigger place, these days. It's much more open to different ideas. Cultures mix.


That comment was a bit harsh wasn't it? I guess I could have said doctrines and left the "brain washing" bit out of it. Ok... I took the whole "brain washing" statement out of it.

However, you summed up what I meant pretty nicely.


you don't win an argument by offering alternatives. Your way is the only way, period.


The whole "my way is the correct and only way" attitude is why I label it a form of "brain washing."



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 02:21 PM
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Originally posted by Hobbes
Is the Church the priest and local community that you deal with, or the Vatican which you don't?


Oh ... That is soooooooooo protestant!
The Church in Rome, the Vatican, runs the Catholic Church. Period.


I think most Catholics would find they aren't living by 'Vatican' standards, but are more or less fine by local decree.


That's protestant.


does the Vatican determine if you are a good Catholic,


The Vatican sets the rules. If you don't follow them then YOU have determined that you are not a Catholic in good standing.


In this day and age there are many that look at the Holy See as some sort of stain, some ancient relic, that has nothing to do with them.


And again ... that's protestant. If anyone claims to be Catholic yet views the Vatican as a 'stain' and doesn't bother with it .. then they are protestant. Their claim to be Catholic is pathetic.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 03:20 PM
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I'm a non practicing Catholic who is a mason. There are lots of Catholic mason, most quite openly, I was even told of a priest who was a brother at one of the lodges in the state. It's like the church's position on birth control, most people only follow what they want. Excommunication is an empty threat now a days. Who really cares, you can just start going to the other church down the street. Back in the old days when you thought that if you were kicked out you wanted get to heaven, I can see why people would be worried, but who really believes that now. I personally believe that as long as the money rolls in, most parish priest aren't going to rock the boat and tick off people to the point where they'll stop going.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 04:34 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by chief_counsellor
some will claim that the Catholic church does not ban it's members from membership, this reiterates that this is not so.


Absolutely true.

I can't tell you how many Catholics I have run into who say that they are a Mason, and that the Church now allows. it. This is simply not true. The Church does not allow it. If a Catholic isn't officially excommunicated it's either because the priest doesn't know, doesn't care, or doesn't believe in the Church anymore.

Catholics are not allowed to be masons while still remaining Catholics in good standing. Period. Nothing has changed.


I believe I was one of those Masons FF
.. Do you love me anyless for it?


I have talked to priest... and bishops... id like to talk to the Cardnal..

They have all said "Catholic leaders in America will not excomunicate a Mason."



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 04:41 PM
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By the way FF ... why should the Church have the right to ban people from anything? ..... and why ban Masons? I would say "what have I done" .. but I am a bad Catholic regardless of where I go on Saturdays...
Its that whole freethinking thing.. keeps holding me back.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 05:08 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
By the way FF ... why should the Church have the right to ban people from anything? ..... and why ban Masons? I would say "what have I done" .. but I am a bad Catholic regardless of where I go on Saturdays...
Its that whole freethinking thing.. keeps holding me back.


I agree that the church shouldnt ban anyone from anything, let alone joining a brotherhood. Does this mean that Catholic college students are banned from joining a fraternity? This is more or less the equivalent of being a Mason.

Also, how would the church know if you ARE a Mason? IS is when you run into your priest at a lodge or are you supposed to mention that one in the confessional.

Given the fact, or lack thereof, that former high ranking officials within the catholic church were members of super secret lodges of Freemasonry, I dont see how the actions of one person deserve any sort of punishment.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 06:16 PM
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Catholics / KoC:

Is the Pope still widely considered to be infallible?

eg: What happens when a priest / number of priests / high-ranking officer (Cardinal etc) disagrees with the Pope's edict, or an edict of His Office?

Is it up for discussion at all, or is it generally not an issue because of the Holy See's established authority and/or His Holiness's infallibility in matters such as these?



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 06:30 PM
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Originally posted by Roark
Is the Pope still widely considered to be infallible?


The pope himself is not infallible. He has never HIMSELF been considered to be. What is infallible is doctrine that he speaks from the Chair of Peter and declares it ex-cathreda. THAT is infallible. The pope has always been just like us, a fallible sinner, and he has always turned to confessing his sins ... just as the rest of us do.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 06:31 PM
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Originally posted by Roark
Catholics / KoC:

Is the Pope still widely considered to be infallible?

eg: What happens when a priest / number of priests / high-ranking officer (Cardinal etc) disagrees with the Pope's edict, or an edict of His Office?

Is it up for discussion at all, or is it generally not an issue because of the Holy See's established authority and/or His Holiness's infallibility in matters such as these?


The Pope is said only to be infallible when he speaks "ex Cathedra" and declares something on the matters of faith and morals. The Popes throughout the ages have only spoke "ex Cathedra" on a couple occasions, and those occasions have been specific teachings concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The Infallibility of the Pope is ONLY when he proclaims something "ex Cathedra" (from the chair of Peter), and only pertaining to dogmatic teachings on subjects of faith and morals. The Popes throughout the centuries have rarely used this.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 06:46 PM
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Originally posted by Rockpuck
why should the Church have the right to ban people from anything?


The Catholic church has a full right to declare what it thinks best for it's members. Matthew 16:18 If you don’t like what the Catholic Church believes … get out.


and why ban Masons?

www.ewtn.com...


Its that whole freethinking thing..


If you wish to 'protest' then join the 'protesters' - aka protestants. Otherwise, folllow the rules of the church or get out.


Originally posted by Rockpuck
I have talked to priest... and bishops.. They have all said "Catholic leaders in America will not excomunicate a Mason."


It doesn’t matter what they say. They are wrong. They know it. They are nothing more than protestants in Catholic clothing.


They find the entire idea "silly"


It doesn’t matter what they think. They are priests and they are supposed to follow the rules of the church. If they can’t, they should get out.


we see no reason why they are baned in Rome"..


It doesn’t matter. The Catholic Church is not a democracy. It works from the top down, not the bottom up. They know better than to behave like this. They are LOUSY priests. Their souls are in danger of hellfire for making vows in God’s house and now not following them.

Rockpuck .. If you want to be a Mason, then go be a Mason. But the fact is that you KNOW it is against the rules of the church, no matter what the local idiot priest tells you. Be a Mason, or be a Catholic. You can’t be both. Not really.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 07:47 PM
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Well if the Nazi style Catholics don't want me because I think for my self, I will stop going to Church, and the biggoted Pope can loose but yet another member. I will not let my kids touch foot in a Catholic Church as well, biggoted organizations like that have no place in this world, and it will die accordingly.

And you can say you "don't care" all you want, I take it personally. Any one who blindly supports the cowardly laws in such a way upholds them personally, in my eyes you are no better then the King you serve.



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by chief_counsellor
The Pope is said only to be infallible when he speaks "ex Cathedra" and declares something on the matters of faith and morals. The Popes throughout the ages have only spoke "ex Cathedra" on a couple occasions, and those occasions have been specific teachings concerning the Blessed Virgin Mary.

The Infallibility of the Pope is ONLY when he proclaims something "ex Cathedra" (from the chair of Peter), and only pertaining to dogmatic teachings on subjects of faith and morals. The Popes throughout the centuries have rarely used this.


Thanks Chief. Much appreciated.

Is the Church's current opposition to Catholic-Masonic membership based on the historical squabbles between Freemasonry and the Church, or is it more of a doctrinal issue, in which the Church consideres Freemasonry an alternate religion?

Zbigniew Suchecki (from the article) seems to think that is it the former, and says that: "Whoever is inscribed in an association that plots against the Church must be punished with a just penalty; whoever promotes or directs that association, must be banned."

I must say, considering that these "plots" happened so long ago, I find the Church's unforgiving nature a little... rough... especially considering what the world has had to forgive the Church for over the centuries. (I know you don't speak for the whole Church here, and I'm not trying to bait you into a fight. My girlfriend's family is Catholic, and I'm trying to learn more from "the horse's mouth, so to speak...)

Are the strictures so tough purely because of history, or is there a doctrinal issue at play in the contemporary Church's policies on Freemasonry?



posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:15 PM
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Roark:

It is over past feuds.. the Church outlawed Masons because they despise anything different then them selves.. in current day they suffer a complex with their pride and superiority apparently, and refuse to "forgive" so to speak the Masons. Masons however have no problems with Catholics in general, except with people like FlyersFan.
As I said earlier, Catholics in America (Clergy) are much more humane then those in Rome and do not "punish" Masons.

By the way, the only punishment is not being allowed to take bread on Sundays, other then that you can go to Church and all that.. not like they ask you at the door and do random searches for Masonic rings or something.
Just people like FF who are old school don't like us because the Pope said she shouldn't.


Jesus would be proud.



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