USAF bombing Chinese Navy

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by google_abcd
China just need to shoot down or blind the US satellites above China's territory by using anti-satellite missiles and laser, then the whole US carrier group will become useless.

In short.. No..

You've got to do a lot more than that..
And once you take out space assets then you take the confrontation to a whole new level..

Yes indeed, because if you destroy satalites at our operating levels the field of debris would destroy almost every single satalite in space... including Chinas.. and all the worlds... including Russias... I can't see the world taking that lightly.

Originally posted by BlackWidow23
I think that we would retaliate navally, but since thats not the question:

The air launched version of the sea sparrow missile would be very effective.

PRC goes into taiwan straight.
USA moves a CVBG towards them.
USA CVN launches aircraft with sea sparrow missiles.
PRC takes a blow and deployes its land based air force.
USA moves raptors in from japan.
USA raptors quell most if not all enemy air force.
USA starts losing naval air units to ship based SAMS.
PRC begins to lose ships to CVBG and air units.
PRC subs attack CVBG.
USA DESRON arrives to fight off subs.
USA CVBG under intense fire
USA CVBG launches a finishing blow and than backs off.
USA moves additional CVBG into the area and PRC backs off.

What defense would their navy have against B2's?

B-52 can carry as many as 8 AGM-84D Harpoon ASM on wing pylons. Im not sure if they can carry the weapon on internal rotary launchers but that would increase the amount by quite a bit.

It would not just be the USAF trying to defend the straight, but rather a combined approach using submarines, USAF aircraft and naval aviation.

The Buff can also carry a range of mines as well

[edit on 3/9/07 by FredT]

The war between China and America in Taiwan Strait is hardly a sea war. Anything inside Taiwan Strait is subject ot massive Chinese land missiles and rockets' attack. The same applies to the small islands of Guam, Okinawa and American carrier ships. Also, China can constantly make lots of missiles and can fully sustain itself and drag America into long wars in Taiwan Strait.

Apart from the Su27 and J10s, China has thousands of outdated planes, and are changing them into unmanned suicidal planes. Ships and submarines can also impose great threats to Amrican carrier ships. Also, China can use boat waves to cross the strait under the cover of massive land missiles. America might have air advantage, but China is of course fully prepared for the casualities.

In case of nuclear weapons, Chinese land based and submarine based ICBMs have multiple warheads and can change their orbits and penetrate American national defense system. Of course America can still eliminate China as long as American middle class are willing to sacrifice American big cities for Taiwan.

If Taiwan declares independence and triggers the war, neither democratic government nor republican government will really go to war for Taiwan. If China starts the war first, then there might be a big argument. American government are required by TRA to supply weapons to Taiwan, but not explicitly war for Taiwan. America is, however, required to war for Japan and South Korea.

You are assuming that USA has one total CVBG in the area, and for some reason decides not to attack things like air bases and rocket sites.

The USA also has subs, and they can also launch ICBMs.

Suicidal aircraft can only work if they can take off, and china will run out of airbases before the drones can really take effect.

Suicidal drone aircraft would be decimated by CIWS and multiple sams.

In case of nuclear weapons: China would also have to deal with the destruction of huge cities. Is the most densly populated county in the world prepared for the billions dead from nuclear war? Im sure the chineese citizens will be DELIGHTED to hear that. On top of that, the sub screen would wipe out chineese subs before they could launch their missiles and any that did get launched would be decimated by THAAD.

Oh, china can make lots of missiles? The military industrial power of the US is huge as well.

And as for overwhelming rockets and missiles: Tomohawks, F-18s and bombers of all types. A B-2 can run around wreaking havoc with a collosal payload of SDBs. With ten or more in the area, completely invisible to the current SAMS of china, they can take out upwards of a thousand weapon sites or air bases a single wave.

Let me revise:

US moves several CVBG into area, just out of range of chineese missiles.
US moves B-2 bombers and F-22s to nearby islands.
US launches a massive B-2 raid nocking out runways and weapon sites.
US launches a massive strike of tomohawk cruise missiles.
PRC retaliates and launches its "suicide planes".
US CIWS and SAMS knock out most drones, but some get through, probably taking a few cruisers and destroyers with it.
PRC subs knock out the rest of the CVBG.
US attack subs take on PRC subs.
US CVBG is now free to move about. Launches tomohawks on numerous ground targets.
Any attempt by the PRC surface fleet would be totally crushed by harpoon missiles.

EDIT: OR, if you want nuclear war:

PRC launches missiles.
US intercepts some missiles but some get through. Millions die.
US retaliates. Billions die.
Russian Federation steps in just for the heck of it. More people die.
The world goes to H.E. Double hockey sticks. Everyone dies.




[edit on 10-3-2007 by BlackWidow23]

He Black the Chinese are known for their cunning how about they know your plans and nuke the US before you have time to do anything.

And more to the point the American Military have never been tested in a real war so it would be a big mistake to think it would be like Iraq.

US moves B-2 bombers and F-22s to nearby islands.

Which are in range of 1000+ ballistic missiles with a combination of HE, FAE and cluster munitions

US launches a massive B-2 raid nocking out runways and weapon sites.

How much sites can 20< B-2s "knock out".

There are layers of air defenses in china, first the sea based systems, coastal based lands and the interior SAMs, some are mobile and some are on stationary launch pads. The chinese have also been working on their Anti-LO technology in the form of passive radars, multiple recievers devices to track such aircraft


Chinese weapon depots are mainly located underground in tunnels and are dotted all over the country. Not to mention the mobile forces





Please use the word "tomahawk" sparingly, you sound as if the US has more than the 2000 in current stock. Now what about Chinese defenses against tomahawks?, are we going to factor that in

China White you do realize the US policy against China is Nuclear First Strike.

China has maybe 30 warheads that can reach the US...at most...China can be obliterated by the US...China can't even destroy the greater Dallas Texas region.

US wins.

China will never push the US to war.

Originally posted by BlackWidow23
they can take out upwards of a thousand weapon sites or air bases a single wave.

20 B-2 taking out "a thousand weapon sites or air bases a single wave"?






And whats this talk of THAAD??, has it even been tested and deployed yet??????

Originally posted by The_Investor
China has maybe 30 warheads that can reach the US...at most

China has upwards of 60 missiles that can reach the US, each missile for a major American city with a 1-3 megaton payload quite possibly laced with highly reactive cobalt to make living in the US impossible

Everyone wins dont they

30 DF-5A missiles

Range - 12,000km-14,000km


It was formerly hidden inside caves inside the PRC but now are located inside one the of three PLA Ballistic missile complexes. Some are silo based and some are stored inside the tunnels ready to be launched, preparation time is around two hours for the older DF-5 missiles but the newer DF-5A might be shortened by the use of a new booaster fuel which might have also increase reliability. It has also been seen on mobile platforms after being split into its separate stages which might have been abandoned since the purpose built mobile DF-31 enter service


15-30 DF-31/A



Range - 8,000km~10,000km (depending on version)


The DF-31 was first seen in 1999 at the parade marking the 50th anniversary of the PRC. Since then there have been a number of these systems entering service, the numbers range from 15-30 systems and considering their production rate, there might be more to come. Extremely mobile and extremely if impossible to detect. These will form the backbone of chinas nuclear force and be include the longer ranged DF-31A version in its current arsenal

??? JL-2

Range - 8,000

The Submarine version of the DF-31, these are supposed to be based on the New Type-094 SSBN which have been rumored to have entered service already. There have been claimed pictures of it, some of which are extremely clear but nothing is for certain. They might also be placed on the modified Type-092 SSBN after its latest update


To destroy chinas first ICBM complex, you would need a total of roughly 300 warheads to damage chinas first ICBM tunnel complex since it is hidden by a mountain as well as its length. There are at least 30,000 miles of underground silo bases, under three mountain ranges in china for the DF-5 and DF-5. This gives Chinese forces enough time to re-fuel and launch

Mobile missiles are another story and are virtually impossible to destroy. A example of this was the Iraqi SCUD launchers. The Americans had complete air superiority and special forces in iraq as well as drones and spy satellites yet they found it impossible to locate and destroy iraqi SCUD launchers.

Now imagine the worlds third biggest country with one of the worlds most diverse landscapes full of mountains and man-made tunnels. Try finding a ICBM launcher in the interior of china epically Tibet and Chengdu with all those mountains. China does have enough missiles to do justice in a nuclear exchange with America whilst America will do more than enough justice to china. But America also has the Russians to worry about and wont use all its nuclear weapons on china. Chinas nuclear force is enough to make a deterrent against the Americans and thus cause a parity between the two countries

Like other known mountain ranges housing underground tunnel networks for China's strategic missiles, the Tai-Hei Mountain Range has many steep cliffs and canyons with large big elevation changes over a short distance between 1,000 and 2,000 meters. So yo u can easily dig tunnel networks with over one kilometer thick earth-cover in mountain ranges.

A typical 500-kiloton nuclear warhead in U.S. or Russian arsenals can `dig' a big hole 70m deep and 300m wide on the ground, and that is more than enough to destroy a missile silo or even an airport. If specially hardened for the earth-penetration purpos e, it may create a huge crater sphere 200 meters in diameter underground. Taken into account of the rupture zone around the crater and the likely penetration depth of warheads, at least three 500-kiloton warheads will have to land on the same spot sequen tially in order to penetrate the 1-kilometer thick earth cover and destroy the tunnel underneath. Even with the monster 20-megeton warhead on Russia's single-warhead SS-18, at least two warheads have to land on the same spot.

Moreover, one would destroy less than 300 meters of a tunnel using three warheads. Assuming the underground tunnel network under the Tai-Hei Mountain Range is only 1,000 kilometer long, one would need to use 10,000 (ten thousand) 500-kiloton warheads in order to make sure the tunnel network is completely destroyed. This is the VERY unlikely case in which you know the exact layout of the entire tunnel network. AND this is just one of several missile sites in China.
Kimsoft.com

In conclusion, china has the capability to make the America or anyone elses use of nuclear weapons un-pleasant if they choose to bomb china. Much has been made on the state of chinas ICBM force of "twenty ageing silo based missiles" without much concern for the deployment of other missiles in the service. Quote and re-quoting FAS has been done and dusted and new accurate figures should be composed.

I should probably have clarified:

The B-2s can carry over 100 250lb small diameter bombs. If you send all 20 B-2s in, they can probably drop half before being shot down or running out of fuel. These bombs can penetrate 25 feet of concrete.

Ok, I completely agree that the B-2s cant run wild all over china, but were just trying to bomb the rocket sites within range of the Taiwan straight, right? Thats not that many.

LO tech is harder to defeat than what you think. Sure, you can probably detect it, but at a highly reduced range. The B-2 has a frontal RCS "around the size of a mosqito". I assume that the bottom RCS is higher, more like a bird. Can China shoot its SAMS at small birds?

Alright, I have to be more direct about this nuclear war. If two nuclear superpowers go to war, they both die. Thats bottom line. One nuclear weapon is enough to kill millions and millions of people, and one on every major city in the US and China is enough to get the people to say "stop nuking or we are going to topple and than kill you."

And one more thing: If all your launchers are under mountains, how are they going to shoot out? By the time they move out, fuel a rocket, prepare to fire and fire, we will have spotted it via sattelite and SDB'd it.

If china nuked the US, russia wouldnt say "dont nuke back or else, got it? China can nuke you, but you cant nuke them back." Oh come on, what do you think the world would think of THAT? If russia stepped in, THEY would have all of NATO to worry about. Than you are talking about WWIII.

Also, probably effective, is the YAL-1 ABL. Two or three of them could knock out a helluva lot of ICBMs during boost phase. This is after, of course, B-2s hold of the SAMS.

I feel that I have to clarify this again: There will NEVER EVER EVER be a full blown nuclear war. Three words: Mutually...Assured...Destruction. Even if one superpower dosent get hit by a SINGLE nuke, and they nuke the hell out of the other country, everyone STILL dies.

Even if there was no radiation, millions would still die. Hiroshima and Nagasaki are an ugly scar on this country, what do you think the world would say if nuclear war erupted?

[edit on 10-3-2007 by BlackWidow23]

lol

do you guys know that B-2 is not stealthed while bombing?

beside, bombing china is not like iraq

when local ppl or anyone sees B-2s flying over, they'll just make a cell phone call to the PLA office, then im sure there will be big loads of anti-air bullets flying toward B-2

PS. B-2 flys quite low to avoid powerful ground radars

[edit on 3/10/2007 by warset]

I'm sorry, but that post is just dead wrong.

The B-2 is ALWAYS stealthed. It loses stealth when its bomb bay doors open. That happens for a few seconds. If you launched a missile at it, the doors would close and the missile would lose lock.

And BS the B-2s fly low to avoid ground radar. Thats the B-1. The B-2 releases its payload from 30,000 feet.

B-2s do fly low to avoid ground radars

and the few second unstealth might means the end to the aircraft

a superb air defence team can use compter to compute the path of the aircraft, and calculate the position of the plane according to its direction and speed, and shoot it down even when radar no longer sees it

that's how that F-117 got shoot down back then in yogoslovia, the radar only picked it up for a few seconds, and the next thing you know, it's rest in pieces

but so far, i think the best way to counter stealth in today's technology is still by anti-air guns, even though it still wouldn't be very effective..

another way to counter stealth is by those camera like radars, they work like cameras but can tell the distance and speed of the air-craft, and which act basically like radars
you can put those small hidden cameras to almost everywhere in the country.
one big problem with that is it doesn't work very well during night time or cloudy days

[edit on 3/11/2007 by warset]

Oh you cant be serious.

If the B-2 flies so low, why was the original project named "High altitude penetrating bomber"? Yeah, they named it that so it could fly really low. Low level bombing us useless for a slow aircraft like the B-2, thats a job for the B-1.

The F-117 was shot down, yes. Stealth is not invincible. But:

1. It was flying a repeated flight path, so easy to track
2. It was using 1st generation stealth
3. It was an incredibly lucky shot; the missile wasnt even being guided. Some serbs were just ripple firing their SAMS and one of them hit...its just like how bombers were shot down in WWII...they heard the aircraft so they just shot upwards and hoped.

The B-2 has much better stealth than F-117.

Even if you locked onto the B-2 and fired a missile while its doors were open, as soon as the doors close you will lose lock.

Wow, the Chineese have developed a new type of optical radar? How about a link for that?

camera/optical radar isn't some thing high tech, it's not working very well during night time or cloudy days this is only a theory;
i didn't say PLA has the ability to effectively take down stealth aircraft namingly the B2 and F22

no one really has that ability for now, not even the US air defence can effective take down B2 and F22

and ya, unguilded missiles/rockets are probably better at hitting those things

[edit on 3/11/2007 by warset]

Guys. Tens of thousands of Chinese military bases or airports are largely hidden all over the places. There are plenty of Southern Chinese mountains that can easily reach Taiwan. Of course, America can destroy some, but can hardly destroy most of it. In the mean time, American military bases in the region are only a few. South Korea, Philipine, Singapore and Australia have already explicitly said America cannot use their bases for Taiwan. Japanese and Guam bases are the only that you can use, which are in small islands that any map can show. American logistic across the Pacific is difficult and easily subject to attacks.

In quality, China has very good ballistic missiles and cruise missiles. Planes and ships are just so so. Submarines are better. You have to also consider the quantity that China is able to produce, since China can produce most of them by itself. Back in Korea War, compared to America, China has nothing but manpower; now China is much more capable

Anti-Taiwan independence is the number one task of the Chinese ruling elites, followed by economic development and social harmony. China will definitely use all its national resources. Of course, if America spend all its national power warring for Taiwan, America might still win ultimately after 5 to 10 years. It all depends on how much American voters are willing to sacrifice.

[edit on 11-3-2007 by Luketao]

(this is not an attack) I am very curious about the quality of chineese subs. Do you have a link? (not an attack, I actually want to learn)

For the sake of discussion, lets assume that what you are saying is accurate. Supposing China does have hundreds of air bases and rocket sites in the area, does china have the aircraft to fill them?

Also, if what you are saying is true (that china would throw its entire self into the war effort) Than there is no way a CVBG would survive.

Power projection is one thing. We can only move so many airfields into Chineese waters. Its true though, not having a hundreth of the number of airbases in china in the area would put the US at a huge strategic dissadvantage.

I would like to restate, that the Industrial power of the US is enormous as well.

I thought that Japan was willing to let use of their airfields though...that would definately help.

Also, if Taiwan declares independence, that could mean China fighting a war on two fronts - taiwan on one side, the USA on the other. Thinking about it now though, China probably has the manpower to walk over Taiwan.




[edit on 11-3-2007 by BlackWidow23]

[edit on 11-3-2007 by BlackWidow23]

China isn't that stone aged when it comes to air defense. After all, they have the new S-300PMU russian air defense that can take down every US planes i'm pretty sure. So you don't have anymore air superiority if you enter China air space.