Russia Abolishing Elections, Abandoning Democracy

Originally posted by thisguyrighthere
Ha! Where are those who laughed when people said the Cold War isnt over and Russia isnt free now?

Its obvious, out in the open, and youd have to be blind and deaf not to see it but I guarantee people will still deny Russias intent and still ignore things like Russians getting caught trying to sell nuclear material to Iran and Hugo Chavez being buddy buddy with these guys and Cuba hoarding biological weapons.

There isnt anyting funny about any of this. There isnt anything coincidental about this. And there certainly isnt anything that shuld make us feel good about this.

Are democracies free?

Isn't the best way to control the actions and thoughts of the people to make them think their free.

Aside from that, what makes Democracy so "great" and better then any other form? Is it working in France? ... Denmark? ... Mexico is freely elected...

So was Venesualla..



A strong leader is a strong leader. I do not support Putins stances, but I prefer a logical well educated discussion then classifying anyone different then your self to be "evil" ...

Originally posted by bjshobbes
Putin is using Iran as a pawn in his game to get Russia back to it's communist "superpower" status.

There's a lot of people expressing that same sentiment I'm noticing. To be perfectly honest, before I relayed the news story it hadn't even occurred to me, but sounds reasonable. If you or anyone has some good solid links to follow, I'm all ears, but I also don't want to jump the gun on that assumption yet, because I just don't know enough about it.

And I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head.

We aren't paying enough attention to what's happening in the rest of the world. That's how we got into the Iraq and Iran fiasco to begin with. Even now, almost everyone I know is just now rubbing their eyes and saying "Iran? What'd they change the spelling?"

It's enough to make one pull their hair out sometimes.

That said, there's a few things I really feel compelled to disagree with you on. I hope we can discuss them rationally.

Originally posted by bjshobbes
The US is it's own worst enemy.

I have to disagree there. I think we're so smug we just can't conceive of a better one. For the most part, every American I know still loves their country, but is disgusted with it for different reasons, and none of them agree with each other.

I want to point out a few words you said that I'm also hearing a lot of...

Originally posted by bjshobbes
Thanks to the spineless conservative wimps that can't stand up to the overly liberal fringe left and their overbearing, unnecessary-entitlements-for-the-helpless-to-keep-control-over-the-masses-by-keeping-them-needy mentality. Lets not forget the Civil Liberties Union. We'll sue ourselves right out of our freedom.

This is our worst enemy: Division.

The assumption that anyone who thinks differently than you is somehow inherently UnAmerican, less patriotic, or seeks the downfall of what our country really stands for (life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness), is what lead to everyone screaming at everyone else so loudly we stopped listening to anything else.

The same situation is going on in Russia, this very moment.

If you persue this line of thought, all you are doing is sending your fellow countrymen down the same path, and forgetting the point of a Democracy yourself.

If America is going to survive the next century of Bush Afertmath, we must learn to see past partisan bickering. We can no longer afford to splash in the pool of meaningless labels. There's real problems out there, with real people's lives being ruined or ended each passing day.

The minute you assume that someone of an opposite political ideology can't work with you towards the same goal, is the moment you ignore the reality of democracy, which is to throw everything at the wall, and see what sticks, and use that to get the job done.

Originally posted by bjshobbes
China is just sitting back and watching the fun. I mean, how long have they been around? It's not like they're falling by the wayside.

Actually it's not so easy as all that.

China is absolutely a sleeping dragon. I personally believe America and China will learn to play nicer together as time goes on and they realize there's a lot of water between them.

At one point in time, I think China might have had possible goals of overthrowing the United States, but their current reality is that they've got a third of the world's population that is rapidly shifting from 3rd world to 1st world conditions. This will consume enormous resources. Most first world nations waste more in a day than most third world situations waste in years.

Not only must China figure out how to attain those resources, it must do so at an incredible pace that does not destroy their quality of life and culture and government in the process.

One place it may be able to at least obtain the resources from is Russia. The idea of a unified China, Russia, and North Korea would be very, very bad news for us.

I think if we are to avoid another cold war between us, Russia, and Russia's allies, we'll need to start improving relationships with China very quickly, but that's just my opinion. A friendly US/China relationship will remove much, if not all, of Russia's muscle.

Thoughts?

Originally posted by thelibra
That said, there's a few things I really feel compelled to disagree with you on. I hope we can discuss them rationally.

I'm all for the discussion. I'd hate to get away from the original train of thought on this thread, but elaborating on some of these ideas you'd like to discuss were from another thread I started elsewhere. If nobody has any objections, I'll be glad to delve into this stuff a little further here. (Actually I need to get back into my little world for a bit and do the grocery thing. Then I'll be back to mull over what you have and expound on what we've got going on here.)

ps. Bear with me on the quotes. I'm still trying to figure out how to use the site. I apologize for any inconsistancies with the etiquittes and expectations on posting.

Originally posted by bjshobbes
ps. Bear with me on the quotes. I'm still trying to figure out how to use the site. I apologize for any inconsistancies with the etiquittes and expectations on posting.

You're doing fine, actually, and welcome to ATS... the most diverse group of people I know. I look forward to your responses and I'll check out the other thread you linked as well.

Originally posted by thelibra

Originally posted by bjshobbes
Putin is using Iran as a pawn in his game to get Russia back to it's communist "superpower" status.

There's a lot of people expressing that same sentiment I'm noticing. To be perfectly honest, before I relayed the news story it hadn't even occurred to me, but sounds reasonable. If you or anyone has some good solid links to follow, I'm all ears, but I also don't want to jump the gun on that assumption yet, because I just don't know enough about it.

And I think that pretty much hits the nail on the head.

We aren't paying enough attention to what's happening in the rest of the world. That's how we got into the Iraq and Iran fiasco to begin with. Even now, almost everyone I know is just now rubbing their eyes and saying "Iran? What'd they change the spelling?"

It's enough to make one pull their hair out sometimes.

Excellent point. I can't argue with that. I was just merely putting out some thoughts on some observations I've made from various forms of media.

Originally posted by thelibra

Originally posted by bjshobbes
The US is it's own worst enemy.

I have to disagree there. I think we're so smug we just can't conceive of a better one. For the most part, every American I know still loves their country, but is disgusted with it for different reasons, and none of them agree with each other.

I want to point out a few words you said that I'm also hearing a lot of...

Originally posted by bjshobbes
Thanks to the spineless conservative wimps that can't stand up to the overly liberal fringe left and their overbearing, unnecessary-entitlements-for-the-helpless-to-keep-control-over-the-masses-by-keeping-them-needy mentality. Lets not forget the Civil Liberties Union. We'll sue ourselves right out of our freedom.

This is our worst enemy: Division.

The assumption that anyone who thinks differently than you is somehow inherently UnAmerican, less patriotic, or seeks the downfall of what our country really stands for (life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness), is what lead to everyone screaming at everyone else so loudly we stopped listening to anything else.

The same situation is going on in Russia, this very moment.

If you persue this line of thought, all you are doing is sending your fellow countrymen down the same path, and forgetting the point of a Democracy yourself.

If America is going to survive the next century of Bush Afertmath, we must learn to see past partisan bickering. We can no longer afford to splash in the pool of meaningless labels. There's real problems out there, with real people's lives being ruined or ended each passing day.

The minute you assume that someone of an opposite political ideology can't work with you towards the same goal, is the moment you ignore the reality of democracy, which is to throw everything at the wall, and see what sticks, and use that to get the job done.

(I can't seem to figure out how to pull individual paragraphs and quote them, and then comment on each one. This is why I'm making separate replies. I'm not points building. Maybe I should find an ATS mentor to straighten me out.)

Back to our discussion.

I don't have a problem with other people's opinions just because they're different than mine. Yes, I have a mostly conservative bias on alot of issues. That being said, I disagree with alot of other conservative issues. I think Gays should be able to get married. A woman has every right to choose what's best for her body. Stem cell research...let's see where it goes. If you want to do drugs, that's on you. Just as long as nobody else suffers for your poor judgement. I think personal responsibility has gotten lost. There's an excuse for every problem out there. Welfare is totally out of control. Immigration should be a legal process. Not, sneak in and get free healthcare and amnesty. Why should my taxes pay for your illegal entry into this country? I honestly believe this country has gone too far with all of the entitlements. However, I think there are people that honestly need help, and would like to see them get it. I don't feel that it's right that hard working, legal citizens are paying for the lazy people, and the illegal immigrants. I have good friends from Mexico and Honduras that obide by the legal process and work very hard for their money. America was based on immigration. Our country is a melting pot, not a cookie jar to steal from. And as of late, if you stick your hand in the cookie jar and get caught, you don't even get slapped on the wrist any more. You can't argue that things are out of control. We, as a country, are being taken advantage of. That is my problem. I do believe in the Democratic process, and the various beliefs that people are entitled to have. The Civil Liberties Union is not helping. If I want to say "Merry Christmas", and you want to say "Happy Whatever", good, celebrate diversity.

[edit on 3/8/2007 by bjshobbes]

Originally posted by bjshobbes
China is just sitting back and watching the fun. I mean, how long have they been around? It's not like they're falling by the wayside.

Actually it's not so easy as all that.

China is absolutely a sleeping dragon. I personally believe America and China will learn to play nicer together as time goes on and they realize there's a lot of water between them.

At one point in time, I think China might have had possible goals of overthrowing the United States, but their current reality is that they've got a third of the world's population that is rapidly shifting from 3rd world to 1st world conditions. This will consume enormous resources. Most first world nations waste more in a day than most third world situations waste in years.

Not only must China figure out how to attain those resources, it must do so at an incredible pace that does not destroy their quality of life and culture and government in the process.

One place it may be able to at least obtain the resources from is Russia. The idea of a unified China, Russia, and North Korea would be very, very bad news for us.

I think if we are to avoid another cold war between us, Russia, and Russia's allies, we'll need to start improving relationships with China very quickly, but that's just my opinion. A friendly US/China relationship will remove much, if not all, of Russia's muscle.

Thoughts?

Yes, I agree whole heartedly. You just utilized the forum and went a little deeper than I did. I went the more simple route. Thanks.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
This is not the rise of the Soviet Union .. it could be the rise of the Russian Empire / Kingdom, who knows.. but it isn't bad. Putin honestly has the best intentions in heart for HIS PEOPLE.... he should give a rats @!$ about anyone else...

I've just been scanning this thread, but this jumped out:

Putin honestly has the best intentions in heart for HIS PEOPLE.

You can't be serious, Rockpuck. Putin is one of the biggest criminals in the world. Russia is now under control of ex-KGB and criminal elements, and they are raping what is left of the empire that was the USSR. How many more dissidents have to be poisoned, or jump to their "suicide" death from buildings, before that becomes apparent?

You've been softened by the Western "we must be nice to everyone" mentality you see..

Putin does what is best for his people and nation, all leaders act rationaly. Bush does what he thinks is best for the people. Does it always come out right? No. Does it always make things better? No.

Putin has turned Russia around quite well actually.. there is still rampant unemployment and poverty, but considering it is the second most populated post-communist country in the world, it should not be surprising that it will take more then 10 years.. especially since before Putin the leader ship pretty much sat on their rears.

Under Putin oil trade has been moved to the Rubble, the economy has improved, the natural resources nationalized, huge shopping malls are springing up, peoples lives are improving. Will it be like America anytime soon? No. Will it agree with America any time soon? It could be a freely elected government and Russia will never see eye to eye with us. Does Putin have a personal problem with America? Yes, if you watch American-Russian diplomatic ties as closely as I do .. you would see our arrogant leaders speak down to Russia like little kids when they do something "bad" .. Why should any true leader take such insulting remarks?

Why is it... if it is not "democratic" it is presumed evil?

Originally posted by Rockpuck
You've been softened by the Western "we must be nice to everyone" mentality you see..

Rockpuck, you don't know how funny that sounds to me, a man that sanctions certain actions that are considered by most here to be "barbaric", as I've been accused of!

Putin does what is best for his people and nation, all leaders act rationaly.

Putin does what is best for himself and the criminals that allow him to live, as long as he keeps enriching them.

Not all leaders act rationally. It may seem rational in their own minds, but that doesn't make it true.

Why is it... if it is not "democratic" it is presumed evil?

I don't know. I never said that it was. Certain monarchies are very benevolent, for example. But I've never seen a benevolent dictatorship. And socialist societies are dictatorships.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Putin does what is best for his people and nation, all leaders act rationaly. Bush does what he thinks is best for the people. Does it always come out right? No. Does it always make things better? No.

Rockpuck, there are two flaws with your reasoning here.

One, is that you assume Putin (and all leaders) act in the best interests of their people, or what they assume to be the best interests of their people. History, as well as our present, is RIFE with leaders who didn't give a damn about the populace, they cared only for the power that came with leading them. Such leaders do not try to make their countries better places, but instead seek to more fully cement their place in the power structure and ensure it cannot be threatened.

Two, the point of a democracy is that when you have a leader who not only "doesn't make things better", but fouls things up so royally that the people demand a change in government, that the country may maintain some semblence of unity, order, and stability, in a bloodless coup for change of leadership. In Putanism, there is either Putanism, or a bloody coup. Without democracy, Russians cannot hope to improve their situation beyond the narrow scope of one man's opinion, and cannot even freely express the desire to do so.

It's not that I feel a non-democratic government is "evil", I think it's unenlightened, and when ruled by a tyrant criminal who hates us, it is a potential threat. When that threat gives our already too-powerful executive branch even more reason to suspend more of MY liberties, in the name of fighting said tyrant, I consider that a clear and present danger.

Look all I am saying is no one bothers to look at it from the other side. Americans are conditioned to hate Russia no matter what Russia does. What some may call bad, others call it good.. given the situation I see Putin as the best option for Russia right now.. democracies have a tendency to elect frauds, cheats and weak leaders into office that are easily bought, easily manipulated and easily exploited by other countries. Since Putin has proven the outside world will not influence him, he is good.. because there is nothing worse then a weak democracy.

You say Putin works only to make him self rich, and make everyone else rich.

The man is filthy rich already... and he could care less about other rich people (Remember the owner of Russia's largest oil company was arrested and all his money taken from him because he wouldn't agree to Russia nationalizing the industry?) I would like to see Bush try and take Exxon on.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Look all I am saying is no one bothers to look at it from the other side. Americans are conditioned to hate Russia no matter what Russia does.

Really? I wasn't. We were conditioned to hate communists, and communism, but even by the mid-70's when I was born this was losing steam. We were far more afraid of WWIII than filled with any sort of actual hatred. When Gorbachev declared glastnost, we cheered for the advances of people across the sea embracing freedom of speech. When he announced the end of the Soviet Union, we cheered for the birth of a new democracy where the people would decide their own fate. We were completely delighted that the Soviet Union was no more, and that freedom had spread. It actually kind of seemed like a golden time, very briefly.

But we never hated "Russia" or "Russians". Russia was just another state of the CCCP. If anything, we hated France more than Russia...

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Since Putin has proven the outside world will not influence him, he is good.. because there is nothing worse then a weak democracy.

Except perhaps a strong tyranny.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
You say Putin works only to make him self rich, and make everyone else rich.

No, I said he craves the power that comes from ruling his own people. There's a difference.

Originally posted by Rockpuck
Remember the owner of Russia's largest oil company was arrested and all his money taken from him because he wouldn't agree to Russia nationalizing the industry?

You say this like it was a good thing? Nationalizing one of your nations most powerful industries is TERRIBLE economic policy. The best one could hope for is mere incompetence running it. The worst? Nationalization of all industry, the removal of a free market, and the allocation of favoratism only to loyal party members.

I sense another uprising of communism?. Well, atleast if we get into a conflict which we will (democracy angry, democracy smash!) it will be a good old fashion war, not a guerrilla terrorism fight.

How is Russia just another state of the CCCP?

The "Soviet Empire" ruled by Moscow and Russian Racism.

Yes that's right...racism. Russians were racists. The KGB only allowed Russians to be in it...you had to be a Russian - if you were not, you were not in the KGB. These policies have some what changed but Russian nationalism is strongly on the rise and Putin's party the "Union Russia" party is strongly in favor of that nationalist agenda.

Also - the highest KGB Officer to defect to the United States believes that the Yeltsin family of which Putin is closely associated is preparing Russia to become a Tsarist state under the leadership of Yeltsin's family and their associates.

Things seem correct as he predicted.

OP...

Are you suggesting that the US should step in and restore "de-MOC-racy" to Russia? Are you missing what's going on in the last country the US decided to do this in?

Hell, if insurgents in a 3rd world country (which USED to be a 1st world country, not to mention the most westernized country in the ME) are fighting off the US military, IMAGINE what the Russkies would do to a US military already stretched thin...

It's their country, let them chose. Look where democracy got America, an escape for annoying immigrants, 50trillion dollars in debt, and hated by every country on the earth.

Russia, if they turn Communism will flourish, like China, if they stay Democratic, they'll stay poor like now.

Good luck Russia with whatever your plans are!

Originally posted by truthseeka
Are you suggesting that the US should step in and restore "de-MOC-racy" to Russia?

To be perfectly honest, I don't think they'd listen to our words, and we sure as hell don't want to bring guns. The only way anyone is going to listen to and trust the United States again is if we lead by example.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Are you missing what's going on in the last country the US decided to do this in?

We got mired in a hellishly long war that has become the shame of the nation in the eyes of the rest of the world...again?

Originally posted by truthseeka
Hell, if insurgents in a 3rd world country (which USED to be a 1st world country, not to mention the most westernized country in the ME) are fighting off the US military, IMAGINE what the Russkies would do to a US military already stretched thin...

I'm not advocating a land-war in Asia. That'd be madness. Madness, I say! I seriously doubt there is a military solution to this situation, and even if there were, history has repeatedly shown that a land-war in Asia is the single biggest mistake any invader can make.

It doesn't mean I'm not extremely concerned about the implications of this, though.

I think part of the reason for Putin winning elections (or should that be 'elections'?) is because democracy was done badly in Russia. Here was this system which was promising the earth - which Russians knew America and the West were prepared to stand completely at odds with the USSR and its allies/satellite states despite the threat of a major war to defend that system... and when it's introduced, it doesn't do a great deal to help the average Russian. Not compared to the picture that the West painted, anyway. They see all these oligarchs come to the fore under Yeltsin, they see Russia's influence in the world waning, unemployment and poverty are still around... it seems no better than Soviet rule to the average Russian (with a Western perspective, we know this isn't true, but we're not the ones voting in Russian elections).

And perhaps this is partly the West's fault... if we'd have helped with the economy and with democracy more, perhaps there would be a more cordial relationship between Russia and the West compared to what we have today (not to mention a large and potentially powerful democratic ally). He clearly doesn't seem to like democracy... his policies are authoritarian at least, and one of his first acts as President was to extend the remit of several Russian security/intel organisations allowing even the Kremlin to legally intercept and read email/internet traffic. Can you imagine what a huge advantage this gives him in elections? It's very, very scary stuff.

[edit on 13/3/07 by Ste2652]