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BBC: Israel and Iran share most negative ratings in global poll

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posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 09:53 AM
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Originally posted by 11Bravo

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
I know how Israelis, Americans and Arabs think.


You sound like God.


No only sound like God . . . at least his God . . . but kind of arrogant to said that he knows what I think . . . as an American . . .

Judah . . .you have no idea what is going on my mind after reading your posts.

It seems that is you the one that have no idea how the rest of the world thinks, including Israelis that are against their own Government . . .




posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 03:03 PM
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Well it looks like that the American Public also has doubts about their own governments foreign and domestic policies:


BBC

he American public also seems to have serious doubts about US foreign policy.

Majorities disapprove of how the US is handling the war in Iraq (57%) and global warming or climate change (54%), while numerous respondents disapprove of US treatment of detainees in Guantanamo and other prisons (50%) and its handling of Iran's nuclear programme (50%).

Views are divided on US handling of the war in Lebanon.

The one area that receives plurality endorsement is the US handling of North Korea's nuclear weapons programme (50%).

A majority of 53% of Americans say that the US military presence in the Middle East "provokes more conflict than it prevents," with just 33% saying that it is a stabilising force.

More broadly, a majority of Americans (57%) say that the US is having a mainly positive influence in the world. This is down from 63% a year ago and 71% two years ago.

Looks like the MAJORITY of Americans do thin, that US military presence in Middle East is actually provoking further conflict, rather then spreading Peace and Democracy. Only one third thinks, that US military is actually helping to stabilise Iraq and Afganistan.

And also it is interesting, that last year 63% of Americans thought that US is having a mainly positive influence in the World - but this year it has dropped by 6% to 57% - which means that it shall be soon under 50% if the current situation in Middle East is going as it is going - which is kind of an uncontrolled drive down the endless spiral of Violence, Death and Destruction.

Looks like American People have spoken too.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Tell me Souljah,
when you say 1% are extremists, from what study did you pick-up that statistic? Is it based on something or just a hunch.

Honestly - it is a Hunch, and usually my Hunch is 99% right.

And that is not just my opinion.


It is too bad that you deceive yourself. I tried to explain to you that there is a difference between the citizens of a totalitarian state and a democratic state. The media in democratic state provides various views (although not always balanced) but totalitarian (and theocratic) states give only their own views. I provided evidence that there is much support for OBL and his extremism in the Arab/Muslim world but you refuse to SEE it. too bad.



The numbers are actually much higher.

Funny how you try to put the higher numbers on Muslims only.

Why?

Are they some kind different then the rest of the World?

Idiots can be found ANYWHERE.


Muslims are only different because their leadership holds them back from acquiring a spiritual level of modern times. In the eyes of a Muslim in the Arab states it is OK to blow up a bus full of children. That is unacceptable.
For example, a soccer championship for children in Tul Karem was named after a terrorist who blew himself up in a hotel where 30 senior citizens held a religious passover feast (source).
This is what the government of the Palestinian portrays as a positive thing and the people just flock and support it even through it is obviously a heinous crime - Source - See the relevant section related to this..


Of course all mainstream media are manipulating one way or another, but I can honestly say, that I have an entirely different picture of the situation in Israel then an American - and so do most of the countries in Europe.

That is your view. Fact is that you do not know. You do not live here, you do not live the situation. I do not express my opinion about Yugoslavia, Bosnia or Serbia since I cannot know the complexities of the conflict. It is funny how people sit in their home, feel all high and mighty and from a distance post their views and opinions based on a very narrow prospective that they base on a biased media source. It really is quite pathetic.



Either brainwashed by Religion (which is the PERFECT weapon against the masses) - or brainwashed by Governments and their techniques of making the people afraid of something, they should not be.

It is a blessing to think with You own mind these days.

That is why you have Free Mind.

It is a Blessing and also a Curse.

Just as it is anything in this Life.

Agreed. Lets agree that we will make an attempt to base our opinions on the same criteria. For example you say that their are many political action committees in the US that basically controls the US. I say that the Europeans and the US have vested interest in the Arabs in the form of Oil and their riches which, of course, is a source of economic strength that Israel does not have. Arab states wholeheartedly support the extremist Palestinian side of the conflict (right to return into Israel, compensation for Palestinians only + 1967 borders devoid of Jews - Which means 2 Palestinian states, the destruction of a Jewish state and the probably the continuation of sectarian violence) with all their financial and political might. Europeans tend to support this view as well (in their own 'nose-up-Ahmed's-ass' sort of way) and then Europeans (such as yourself) parrot Palestinian arguments against Israel even though it is the worst kind of solution available from the slew of choices. It is based on lies, inaccuracies and one-sided arguments.
Quite sad - Free mind - I think not!


[edit on 10/3/07 by JudahMaccabbi]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 02:06 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043

Originally posted by 11Bravo

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
I know how Israelis, Americans and Arabs think.


You sound like God.


No only sound like God . . . at least his God . . . but kind of arrogant to said that he knows what I think . . . as an American . . .

Judah . . .you have no idea what is going on my mind after reading your posts.

It seems that is you the one that have no idea how the rest of the world thinks, including Israelis that are against their own Government . . .


I was referring to how the people think. In Israel , I understand the arguments of those who come from the left side of the political spectrum or the right side. I know their motivations (more or less). The Arab side of the argument I know from discussions with Arabs from more than one walk of life (Muslim, Christians, pro-peace and anti-peace).
I do not base my opinion of the media only. I have Arab family members, work associates. Hell even in my daughters kindergarden there are Arab children.
I do not agree with all of Israel's policies. I think that Israeli-Arabs need to be integrated better into Israeli society so that they feel part of the country. For example - I know that many want to serve in the Military yet Israel doesn't allow them (for security reasons) - Israel should provide them with the capability to serve in a civilian framework -As an example.
Being an American, I also understand American society and the arguments of the Democrats, Republicans, blacks whites, Hispanics, blah blah blah.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 03:37 AM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
It is too bad that you deceive yourself. I tried to explain to you that there is a difference between the citizens of a totalitarian state and a democratic state. The media in democratic state provides various views (although not always balanced) but totalitarian (and theocratic) states give only their own views. I provided evidence that there is much support for OBL and his extremism in the Arab/Muslim world but you refuse to SEE it. too bad.

So what exactly is the difference? So the people of Democratic Iraq are living in Peace today? They are not dying anymore, like in totalitarian regime of Saddam? And also people of Afganistan? They live in peace? Shall we go back a litlte bit and remember how "Democratic" regimes in South America were established - usually by bloody coups, militarya interventions and assassinations; which are all by the way definitions of terrorism. And frankly I do not think OBL even exists. But that is MY opinion.



Muslims are only different because their leadership holds them back from acquiring a spiritual level of modern times. In the eyes of a Muslim in the Arab states it is OK to blow up a bus full of children. That is unacceptable.
For example, a soccer championship for children in Tul Karem was named after a terrorist who blew himself up in a hotel where 30 senior citizens held a religious passover feast (source).
This is what the government of the Palestinian portrays as a positive thing and the people just flock and support it even through it is obviously a heinous crime - Source - See the relevant section related to this..

Shall we go back a few pages and read a few paragraphs of mister Sharon's words? I know exactly what you think of People of Palestine and how you want to portray them here. But sadly your bag of tricks is not working on me. Kids with stones against tanks - that is Palestine against Israel. And people that decide to commit suicide on basis of their belifs, on basis of their anger and despair are a clear sign that something is terribly wrong in the country they are living don't you think? And I do not think that in the eyes of majority of Muslims it is OK to blow up buses - that is what YOU think of Muslims and Arabs. Which is kind of Sad. So what is the difference between a suicide bomber blowing up a bus, and an apache helicopter blowing up a bus? In the end, there are still dead innocent civilians.



That is your view. Fact is that you do not know. You do not live here, you do not live the situation. I do not express my opinion about Yugoslavia, Bosnia or Serbia since I cannot know the complexities of the conflict. It is funny how people sit in their home, feel all high and mighty and from a distance post their views and opinions based on a very narrow prospective that they base on a biased media source. It really is quite pathetic.

If I understood correctly you are living in United States? So how do you know so much about Isreal if you are not there? How do you know so much about Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon - when you sit at your home in America and base your view and opibion on narrow perspective given to you by biased media sources? Oh, yes - that is only my problem, not yours. You seem to know everything, and as one member realized, you must be God. Moses right?



Agreed. Lets agree that we will make an attempt to base our opinions on the same criteria. For example you say that their are many political action committees in the US that basically controls the US. I say that the Europeans and the US have vested interest in the Arabs in the form of Oil and their riches which, of course, is a source of economic strength that Israel does not have. Arab states wholeheartedly support the extremist Palestinian side of the conflict (right to return into Israel, compensation for Palestinians only + 1967 borders devoid of Jews - Which means 2 Palestinian states, the destruction of a Jewish state and the probably the continuation of sectarian violence) with all their financial and political might. Europeans tend to support this view as well (in their own 'nose-up-Ahmed's-ass' sort of way) and then Europeans (such as yourself) parrot Palestinian arguments against Israel even though it is the worst kind of solution available from the slew of choices. It is based on lies, inaccuracies and one-sided arguments.
Quite sad - Free mind - I think not!

Israel gets so much support in billions of USD a year that they do not need any oil. How many billions were transferred from the States to Israel in all those years? How many tanks? How many apache helicopters? How many bombs, missiles? And yes, there are 1% extremists who actually want the destruction of Jewish state, but I do not think they speak for every Muslim living there. Most of them just want what every man wants = PEACE, WATER, FOOD, SHELTER. Do you now want that? If you would have one of those basic needs taken away, would you not get angry? Just as your extremly hateful view of Muslim People does not represent every Jew living in America. Probably just that extreme 1% of fundamenlaists and/or zionists, who always supported Israel and complete and utter destruction of every Arab or Muslim around it. Yet this kind of people are still in power in Israel, in America and they do control foreign policies of these two nations and they are responsible for military actions and they are responsible for breaking international laws and treaties and conventions. But they are also above the law, since money makes this world go around - and I am going to be very rude right now, but we all know who has most money...

[edit on 10/3/07 by Souljah]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 05:33 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah

I love it how you always present your informaton in a manner, which makes anything Islamic or Muslim extremly BAD, in order to make a better picture of Israel.


Humm...well since the staff haven't complained about Souljah derailing the thread once more and started his lies about the United States, there are a few things that must be said....

Souljah...you actually do worse when you try to blame everything on the United States. Even in cases where the United States has nothing to do with your claims, or in some cases when the United States has done mistakes, but other European countries made worse mistakes, if you can call them mistakes....

In fact you lie in all of your claims about the United States providing wmd to Iraq, when you have been present in these discussions before and should know better by now.....

BTW, those sites you gave?.... Obviously they need to follow their own advice and read up on history.

I find it very interesting that you don't mention that during the 70s and 80s and up to the first gulf war the main providers of chemical weapons to Saddam were Germany, alongside some other european countries, while the U.S.S.R. provided the ..

How nice that like always you try to blame the United States...but lets check some facts from one of the main favorite sites a lot of people in here like...

Let's see the truth about Iraq's wmd programs...


1959 — 17 August USSR and Iraq wrote agreement about building atomic power station.

1968 — a Russian supplied IRT-2000 research reactor atomic power station together with a number of other facilities that could be used for radioisotope production was built nearby Baghdad. [2] [3]

1975 — Saddam Hussein arrived in Moscow in April. He asked about building advanced model of atomic power station. Moscow said Ok but under control International Atomic Energy Agency only. Iraq refused.

[www.fas.org... After 6 months Paris agreed to sell 72 kg of 93% Uranium and built the atomic power station without International Atomic Energy Agency control at a price of $3 billion.

In the early 1970s, Saddam Hussein ordered the creation of a clandestine nuclear weapons program.[4] Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction programs were assisted by a wide variety of firms and governments in the 1970s and 1980s. [5][6][7][8][9] As part of Project 922, German firms such as Karl Kobe helped build Iraqi chemical weapons facilities such as laboratories, bunkers, an administrative building, and first production buildings in the early 1980s under the cover of a pesticide plant. Other German firms sent 1,027 tons of precursors of mustard gas, sarin, tabun, and tear gasses in all. This work allowed Iraq to produce 150 tons of mustard agent and 60 tons of Tabun in 1983 and 1984 respectively, continuing throughout the decade. Five other German firms supplied equipment to manfacture botulin toxin and mycotoxin for germ warfare. In 1988, German engineers presented centrifuge data that helped Iraq expand its nuclear weapons program. Laboratory equipment and other information was provided, involving many German engineers. All told, 52% of Iraq's international chemical weapon equipment was of German origin. The State Establishment for Pesticide Production (SEPP) ordered culture media and incubators from Germany's Water Engineering Trading.[

France built Iraq’s Osirak nuclear reactor in the late 1970s. Israel claimed that Iraq was getting close to building nuclear weapons, and so bombed it in 1981. Later, a French company built a turnkey factory which helped make nuclear fuel. France also provided glass-lined reactors, tanks, vessels, and columns used for the production of chemical weapons. Around 21% of Iraq’s international chemical weapon equipment was French. Strains of dual-use biological material also helped advance Iraq’s biological warfare program.

en.wikipedia.org...

The united states did sell advanced computers and biological "samples" which the regime claimed were for medical research, whether the United States believed the claim of Saddam is another story, but the truth is that it was Russia, China, France, Italy, and Germany, among other European countries the ones who provided Iraq with tons uppon tons of chemical gases, and including the nuclear program for weapons development....

BTW, before you start with your lies again...the country that provided Israel with it's nuclear weapons program was FRANCE...and thanks to FRANCE Israel has nuclear weapons....

So keep trying to come up with your lies Souljah....

BTW, Al Qaeda supposedly means "The base", and it was created by Osama Bin Laden after the Russian troops left Afghanistan...

The U.S. only provided training and helped the Afghan rebels meanwhile the Russians were in Afghanistan to fight Communism...

Osama Bin Laden himself said in later interviews that meanwhile the United States was helping the Afghan rebels fight the Russians, the Afghani rebels and himself were thinking on ways to attack the United States after the Russians were out of Afghanistan...

He was already making plans on stabbing the U.S. in the back.


[edit on 10-3-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 05:36 AM
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Originally posted by marg6043
...............
It seems that is you the one that have no idea how the rest of the world thinks, including Israelis that are against their own Government . . .


There are a lot of people who are against their governments these days, yet I am pretty sure you are not trying to claim all Israelis, or a mayority of them are against their government, because i am sure you can't read minds...



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 05:51 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
.............
But sadly your bag of tricks is not working on me. Kids with stones against tanks - that is Palestine against Israel. And people that decide to commit suicide on basis of their belifs, on basis of their anger and despair are a clear sign that something is terribly wrong in the country they are living don't you think? And I do not think that in the eyes of majority of Muslims it is OK to blow up buses - that is what YOU think of Muslims and Arabs. Which is kind of Sad. So what is the difference between a suicide bomber blowing up a bus, and an apache helicopter blowing up a bus? In the end, there are still dead innocent civilians.


Souljah...like always it is you who keeps coming up with "bags of tricks and lies"...

First of all, Palestinian children, and in fact all fundamentalist Islamic countries teach their people from childhood to hate Israel, and the west. There are some among these children that as they grow up, they slowly realize what was done to them, and see the lies they have been fed since childhood, while for others it is too late because they are sent with bombs strapped to their chests to kill infidels and jewish people...

You asked what is the difference between Israeli apaches attacking Palestinians, and suicide bombers killing Israelis.

The main difference is that the Palestinian fundamentalists teach their children that strapping a bomb to their chest, and running towards israeli civilians or soldiers to kill them so they can become martyrs, is the ultimate goal they can accomplish,. and only in this way they will show that they love Allah and their family...

That's the main difference... The Palestinian fundamentalists, and in fact all Muslim extremists don't care about their children, and are willing to strap bombs on their children to kill infidels... Meanwhile the Israelis don't strap their children with bombs...

Sorry to tell you that whichever way you try to paint the "Palestinian suicide bombers" as "freedom fighters", they are just ...messed up [fill in swear word] in their heads.....

No father or mother who really cares for their children will want their children to strap a fricken bomb to their chest...nomatter how bad things are....

The thing is that you also try to claim, like always, that the Muslim Extremists only exist because of Israel and the U.S.... but you always ignore the fact that Islamic extremism has existed ever since the Muslims converted to Islam and decided to bring Islam to teh world by the sword....

You see, if Jesus Christ went around with a sword, beheading Muslims in caravans after they surrendered, took slave/wives which included little girls, and even broke the same laws that supposedly were dictated to him by divine forces..., and in the overall dictated to his followers that they have to kill Muslims if they love God, I would be saying the same thing of the Christian religion....

But in fact there is only one prophet who did these things and worse, and that was Mohammed...which accounts why so many Islamic extremists exist in the world today....

Islamic extremism has existed even before the United States or the present state of israel existed...

It is true that there are Moderate Muslims who do not follow that path...but those Moderate Muslims die at the hands of the extremist Muslims too because they are not following the mandates of Mohammed to the letter...

[edit on 10-3-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 06:22 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
Souljah...like always it is you who keeps coming up with "bags of tricks and lies"...

First of all, Palestinian children, and in fact all fundamentalist Islamic countries teach their people from childhood to hate Israel, and the west.





OK Muaddib you are the expert and of course you know exactly whats going on...sure you do. Its all those evil Palestinian Muslims that teach their kids how to hate. You have been fooled.




UN: Israel must stop discrimination against Arabs, Palestinians

By Reuters

The UN Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination said Israel's security measures to ward off suicide bombings and other attacks must be re-calibrated to avoid discrimination against Arab Israelis or Palestinians living in Israeli-occupied lands such as the West Bank.

The committee specified that Israel should ease roadblocks and other restrictions on Palestinians and put a stop to settler violence and hate speech.

Its 18 independent experts, who examined the records of 13 countries at a four-week meeting in Geneva, also said Israel should cease building a barrier in and around the West Bank and ensure its various checkpoints and road closures do not reinforce segregation.

Source



This is just more stuff that Israel and its supporters will of course ignore as Muaddib exhibits. If ignorance is bliss, you must be in heaven.












Edit: Fixed tags

[edit on 10-3-2007 by ThePieMaN]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 07:28 AM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

Muslims are only different because their leadership holds them back from acquiring a spiritual level of modern times. In the eyes of a Muslim in the Arab states it is OK to blow up a bus full of children. That is unacceptable.

[edit on 10/3/07 by JudahMaccabbi]


I wasn't going to add anything else to this thread but I cannot let this statement pass by unchallenged. Let me put this as clearly as possible:

HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO KNOW ANYONE'S SPIRITUAL LEVEL? ... THAT IS ONE OF THE MOST PRESUMPTIVE AND ARROGANT STATEMENTS I HAVE READ ON HERE IN A LONG TIME. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT, NO KNOWLEDGE TO PASS ANY JUDGEMENT ON ANYONE'S SPIRITUAL LEVEL EXCEPT YOUR OWN AND EVEN THEN GOD HAS THE FINAL WORD.


You also group all Muslims together with the terrorists as if there is no difference and that they are one and the same.

That is the equivalent of me saying that all Jews are bullheaded idiots simply because you are.

[edit on 10-3-2007 by grover]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 07:38 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib

The thing is that you also try to claim, like always, that the Muslim Extremists only exist because of Israel and the U.S.... but you always ignore the fact that Islamic extremism has existed ever since the Muslims converted to Islam and decided to bring Islam to teh world by the sword....

You see, if Jesus Christ went around with a sword, beheading Muslims in caravans after they surrendered, took slave/wives which included little girls, and even broke the same laws that supposedly were dictated to him by divine forces..., and in the overall dictated to his followers that they have to kill Muslims if they love God, I would be saying the same thing of the Christian religion....

But in fact there is only one prophet who did these things and worse, and that was Mohammed...which accounts why so many Islamic extremists exist in the world today....

[edit on 10-3-2007 by Muaddib]


Despite the fact that you like to act like you know and are right about everything Muaddib, you don't know what the hell you are talking about. First of Muslim means a follower of Muhammad or Islam, not a people. If you had wrote (since the Arabs converted to Islam) you would be correct.

Second of all and more importantly have you ever read an intelligent and not a religiously politically slanted history of Islam? I doubt it. It is a matter of history that Muhammad was involved in a life or death struggle with the pagans of Mecca and it was war. Also that Islam converted people by the sword is a lie. For the first 100 years non-Arabs were forbidden to convert because they were taxed. In fact the only one's who were ever offered the choice of convert or die were the pagans.

[edit on 10-3-2007 by grover]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 08:36 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
The united states did sell advanced computers and biological "samples" which the regime claimed were for medical research, whether the United States believed the claim of Saddam is another story, but the truth is that it was Russia, China, France, Italy, and Germany, among other European countries the ones who provided Iraq with tons uppon tons of chemical gases, and including the nuclear program for weapons development....

Actually you should also read sources you use - and funny how yet again, you quoted everything written except that part about USA - which in your opinion sold "samples"; let us read:


Iraq got seeds for bioweapons from U.S.

The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention sent samples directly to several Iraqi sites that United Nations weapons inspectors determined were part of Saddam Hussein's biological weapons program, CDC and congressional records from the early 1990s show.

The CDC and a biological sample company, American Type Culture Collection, sent strains of all the germs Iraq used to make weapons, including anthrax, the bacteria that make botulinum toxin and the germs that cause gas gangrene, the records show. Iraq also got samples of other deadly pathogens, including West Nile virus.

"I don't think it would be accurate to say the United States government deliberately provided seed stocks to the Iraqis' biological weapons programs," said Jonathan Tucker, a former U.N. biological weapons inspector. "But they did deliver samples that Iraq said had a legitimate public health purpose, which I think was naive to believe, even at the time."

Interesting no?

Very smooth using that term "medical research", when you are buying anthrax and other bio-chemical weapons. Sure they wanted to make a new vaccine, right?

Furthermore;


Made in the USA (Part II)

Iraq would never have developed its chemical-, biological- and nuclear-weapons program — or even its conventional missiles — without technology and material support supplied by a phalanx of American and international corporations. It also helped mightily that officials in the first Bush presidency – many of whom now work for George W. Bush – were willing to look the other way or directly assist Saddam Hussein’s regime.

Between 1985 and 1990, the U.S. government approved 771 licenses for exports of biological agents, high-tech equipment and military items to Iraq, reported Representative Sam Gejdenson (D-Connecticut) in 1991. Those exports were valued at $1.5 billion, said Gejdenson, who was the chairman of the House Subcommittee of the Foreign Affairs Committee at the time.

"The United States spent virtually an entire decade making sure that Saddam Hussein had almost whatever he wanted . . . We continued to approve this equipment until just weeks before Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait," declared, according to a Congressional transcript.

Gejdenson also told his subcommittee that the State Department refused to impose controls on the export of biological toxins to Iraq until 1989, even though it knew Hussein used chemical weapons against Iranian troops during the Iran-Iraq war as well as Kurdish civilians.

And, he added, the administration of the elder George Bush had lobbied, right up to "July 27, 1990 — six days before Saddam Hussein invaded Kuwait," against a proposed House amendment that would have restricted agricultural credits to Iraq.

Wonderful.

So until 1989, before Saddam invaded Kuwait and after he used chemical/biological weapons in Iraq-Iran war and on Kurdish civilians, he was still provided with chemical agents. All togather 711 licences for chemical and biological agents, worth 1.5 billion dollars. Funny how that does not bother you at all - still defending right? France is the one to blame - and Germany! Not USA - nope! But let us ignore that, and keep blaming everyone else, so that Souljah can be wrong and so that you can say, how he is lying. I have a feeling you just write posts to counter mine, not to actually proove a point; just to be on the other side.




BTW, Al Qaeda supposedly means "The base", and it was created by Osama Bin Laden after the Russian troops left Afghanistan...

Yeah?

Bin Laden did not create anything.

He just had money and he was a student of Zawahiri.

He wanted to fight evil Russian "Infidels" in Afganistan.

Saudi had the money - CIA had the weapons and the connections between Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Afganistan. And later Ronnie also said to the CIA chief, that he can have anything he wants (money, weapons etc), as long as he defeats Russians in Afganistan. I suggest you watch BBC documentary The Power on Nightmares - but I guess BBC is too "liberal" for you.


The struggle against terrorism cannot be won by military means

Bin Laden was, though, a product of a monumental miscalculation by western security agencies. Throughout the 80s he was armed by the CIA and funded by the Saudis to wage jihad against the Russian occupation of Afghanistan. Al-Qaida, literally "the database", was originally the computer file of the thousands of mujahideen who were recruited and trained with help from the CIA to defeat the Russians.

Yet there are of couse many theories about the creation of the name, and many theories about who really is Al-Qaeda. I already know what is your theory and I think you already know what is mine. And it is also completly meaningless, since we shall never know for real anyway.

But I love this story anyway:


'Al-Qaeda' is a Manufactured Intelligence Front

During the second Palestinian Intifada, the Israeli intelligence tried to create an "Al-Qaeda" organization in the West Bank and and Gaza using the American know-how and experience gained creating Al-Qaeda and Mr. Osama bin Ladin. The Israeli Intelligence services were using the damaged Palestinians economy to lure in unaware Palestinian youths. They provided several Palestinians with machine guns and thousands of dollars to kill Israelis under the name of Al-Qaeda. When the game was discovered by the Palestinians intelligence, the Israelis scurried away and stopped their disgusting "Al-Qaeda" game with Palestinians. Only last week the media carried news of an Israeli (not Palestinian) arrested in the Phillipines for being a member of "Al-Qaeda".



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 08:55 AM
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Originally posted by Muaddib
First of all, Palestinian children, and in fact all fundamentalist Islamic countries teach their people from childhood to hate Israel, and the west. There are some among these children that as they grow up, they slowly realize what was done to them, and see the lies they have been fed since childhood, while for others it is too late because they are sent with bombs strapped to their chests to kill infidels and jewish people...

Besides being a Commie Expert, you are also an Expert of Islam?

WoW!

You must be one great student!



But have you ever seen where Palestinian children LIVE? Have you seen where they grow up (IF they grow up)? How many Palestinian children have you seen dying? How many have you seen crying, because their parents have been blown away? You think they enjoy where they are living right now?



The main difference is that the Palestinian fundamentalists teach their children that strapping a bomb to their chest, and running towards israeli civilians or soldiers to kill them so they can become martyrs, is the ultimate goal they can accomplish,. and only in this way they will show that they love Allah and their family...

How Ignorant and Idiotic answer.

You have my WAY ABOVE IGNORANT AWARD for this month.

How about Jewish Fundamentalists - do you know anything about them, since you are an all knowing, all seeing student?

I have a few quotes for you - I hope you shall enjoy them:


Truth about the Talmud

Rabbi Yitzhak Ginsburg declared, "We have to recognize that Jewish blood and the blood of a goy are not the same thing." (NY Times, June 6, 1989, p.5).

Rabbi Yaacov Perrin said, "One million Arabs are not worth a Jewish fingernail." (NY Daily News, Feb. 28, 1994, p.6).

On Purim, Feb. 25, 1994, Israeli army officer Baruch Goldstein, an orthodox Jew from Brooklyn, massacred 40 Palestinian civilians, including children, while they knelt in prayer in a mosque. Goldstein was a disciple of the late Brooklyn Rabbi Meir Kahane, who told CBS News that his teaching that Arabs are "dogs" is derived "from the Talmud." (CBS 60 Minutes, "Kahane").

Wonderful neighbours don't you think?

Just give them tanks, artillery, helicopters, bulldozers, state of the art military equipment and let them do what they want to all the "Evil Terrorists" - ooops, I mean Muslims, who live in and around Israel.



Meanwhile the Israelis don't strap their children with bombs...

They just teach them to Hate the Arabs.

(Equally Ignorant Answer to Yours)



The thing is that you also try to claim, like always, that the Muslim Extremists only exist because of Israel and the U.S.... but you always ignore the fact that Islamic extremism has existed ever since the Muslims converted to Islam and decided to bring Islam to teh world by the sword....

And history of Christianity is, like PEACEFUL, right?

You forget Holy Crusades, demonizing the Women, Spanish Inqusition, GENOCIDE of 20 million Indians, GENOCIDE and SLAVERY of Africans. Actually Christianity is no better then Islam - for me they are both the same manipulative Religions, which are designed to control the masses, and they are doing that very well. Extremism has existed before Islam, Christianity or Judaism - but you just want to paint all Muslim with the same lable of being Extreme and Terrorists. Talk about Ignorant and maybe even Racist (only we are talking about a religion not a race). Remember when PAGANS were converted to Christianity by SWORD? When the CHURCH burned arund 2 million women? What does that tell you about a religion? A bunch of sadistic-genocidal-pedophile-power-hungry-lambs-of-god? There is the taste of your own medicine - not my opinion; just so that you know, how Muslims feel when they read your posts.



Islamic extremism has existed even before the United States or the present state of israel existed...

Again you try to point out ISLAMIC extremism, when we both know that Extremism has no home religion, race, nation or color - everywhere there are extremists; but the question is, if you are going to be THAT IGNORANT in your thinking and that narrow minded, that you shall project the acts of few idiots to the entire Nation, Religion or Race? That is Ignorance, and I thought we were here to deny it. I at least blame the Governments, which are responsible for their actions - not entire Races or Nations. That is what you are good at, not me. And you are also good at putting labels on people. I just wonder how much are they paying you.

[edit on 10/3/07 by Souljah]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by Souljah
So what exactly is the difference? So the people of Democratic Iraq are living in Peace today? They are not dying anymore, like in totalitarian regime of Saddam? And also people of Afganistan? They live in peace? Shall we go back a litlte bit and remember how "Democratic" regimes in South America were established - usually by bloody coups, militarya interventions and assassinations; which are all by the way definitions of terrorism. And frankly I do not think OBL even exists. But that is MY opinion.
Souljah,
I have heard your arguments long enough to know that you are an extremist. You don't believe in OBL, that's your prerogative. You can live in an Alice-In-Wonderland world. Even if we assume you are right there is a tremendous following of this make believe entity in the Muslim world which says something about these people.


Shall we go back a few pages and read a few paragraphs of mister Sharon's words? I know exactly what you think of People of Palestine and how you want to portray them here.

Were you referring to those fraudulent quotes posted in Anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sites? Any idiot can see right through the fact that NO Israeli politician would ever say such a thing even if he means it because it would mean his immediate dismissal from Israeli politics. Meir Kahane's political party was outlawed from Israeli parliament for saying things much tamer. You really are doing your intelligence a disservice by believing this crap and even worst using it in your arguments. Incidentally CAMERA already clarified the story - here
(I know you do not like CAMERA. They serve the other side of the argument and your agenda doesn't concur.


But sadly your bag of tricks is not working on me. Kids with stones against tanks - that is Palestine against Israel. And people that decide to commit suicide on basis of their belifs, on basis of their anger and despair are a clear sign that something is terribly wrong in the country they are living don't you think?

Lets try to wake you up from that slumber you are in. You are viewing life through a culture that believes that suicide is bad. Religions martyrize someone who kills himself for G-d. In Islam today, Dying to kill Jews is killing for G-d therefore acceptable. Mujhadeen fighters go to war hoping they will die for Allah. If they do not they feel they have not served their task. Suicidal tendencies of the Palesintians have less to do with their anger and despair and more to do with the the teachings of their leadership. And here is where we agree - something is terribly wrong in the country they are living.


And I do not think that in the eyes of majority of Muslims it is OK to blow up buses - that is what YOU think of Muslims and Arabs. Which is kind of Sad.

It is not what I believe in - It is the cold hard FACTS that Palestinian Muslims think this way. I think that Muslims in general think that it is NOT OK but if it happens in Israel it is justified because of what "Israel does to the Palestinians". That is a load of crock!!!!

So what is the difference between a suicide bomber blowing up a bus, and an apache helicopter blowing up a bus? In the end, there are still dead innocent civilians.

That is where you are wrong. The Palestinians target the Jewish civilians because they are Jewish! The Israeli's target the militants and on occasion kill, by mistake, civilians in close proximity. The intent is what makes the difference. It is sad that you do not comprehend (or choose to ignore) this simple notion.
You miss (or rather ignore) another critical issue. When Hezbullah, Hamas or Islamic Jihad hide weapons, explosives and fire at Jewish neighborhoods from Palestinian residential areas any collateral damage as a result of an attack or counter terror operation is the responsibility of Hezbullah, Hamas or Islamic Jihad - This is in accordance with international law.

If I understood correctly you are living in United States? So how do you know so much about Isreal if you are not there? How do you know so much about Iraq, Iran, Afganistan, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon - when you sit at your home in America and base your view and opibion on narrow perspective given to you by biased media sources? Oh, yes - that is only my problem, not yours. You seem to know everything, and as one member realized, you must be God. Moses right?
I live in Israel for the last 14 years I was raised in the States though, educated in the states up to my bachelor's degree. Graduate school I completed in Israel. Does that clarify things? Moreover, when I was in the states I used to listen to NEWS from Israel on whatever media was available (Shortwave, local programming and later cable).

Israel gets so much support in billions of USD a year that they do not need any oil. How many billions were transferred from the States to Israel in all those years? How many tanks? How many apache helicopters? How many bombs, missiles? And yes, there are 1% extremists who actually want the destruction of Jewish state, but I do not think they speak for every Muslim living there. Most of them just want what every man wants = PEACE, WATER, FOOD, SHELTER. Do you now want that? If you would have one of those basic needs taken away, would you not get angry? Just as your extremly hateful view of Muslim People does not represent every Jew living in America. Probably just that extreme 1% of fundamenlaists and/or zionists, who always supported Israel and complete and utter destruction of every Arab or Muslim around it. Yet this kind of people are still in power in Israel, in America and they do control foreign policies of these two nations and they are responsible for military actions and they are responsible for breaking international laws and treaties and conventions. But they are also above the law, since money makes this world go around - and I am going to be very rude right now, but we all know who has most money...

Ohh yeah I forgot . . . I am barking up the wrong tree here - This is a conspiracy forum - The JEWS control the world. The Rothschilds own the world with their banking enterprises. 9/11 was orchestrated by Israel. Jews each pastries made of Gentile blood. When you look in the mirror does your eyes twitch?? Every once in a while do you mumble KILL THE JEW!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ?????????

Joking aside. The wealth of the Gulf states is more than Israel can hope for. Come visit Israel and you will see the relative modest of life here. I live in a 68 square meter apartment in a Tel-Aviv suburb.
Israel does not OWN Washington but does have influence. Jews have always served their respective countries in a (more or less) loyal manner. This stems from our religious teaching that tell us that during Sabbath morning prayers, when the Torah is read from the congregation blesses the President of the country they reside in. Meaning the Iranian Jews pray for and bless Ahmedinejad, in Iraq they blessed Sadaam Hussein and in Syria they bless Bashar Assad.
You seem to think I hate Muslims (a kind of label you wish to place on me). I do not hate Islam. I read the Koran, I have a teacher who teaches me SUFI philosophies. I take bits and pieces of many religions and incorporate it into my system of beliefs (this includes Wahabi beliefs, Buddhist beliefs and Hindu beliefs). Islam is a tolerant religion but is far from being perfect. Judaism is also a great religion but not perfect.
Problem with religions is that they cannot be rigid. Times change, and like times religions need to change as well (as much as I do not like the term I shall use evolve).
Fundamentalist Islam (as with fundamentalist Christianity and Judaism) holds people in an old set of beliefs that is obsolete. Killing in the name of G-d is Bad.

[edit on 10/3/07 by JudahMaccabbi]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 01:28 PM
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Soujah,
BTW, Extremists are not in Power in Israel. They are in power in Iran, the Palestinian territory, in Syria and within Hezbullah. That you need to understand to pull yourself out of the burrow you are in.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Soujah,
BTW, Extremists are not in Power in Israel.


LMFAO

'wipes away a tear' Oh man, I needed a good laugh... And I suppose like most zionists you believe that you have some kind of divine right over all other natives of that land to rule unconditionally?

Behave yourself.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 04:15 PM
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Souljah....The U.S. gave biological "samples".... Meanwhile European countries gave Saddam tons, and tons of chemical gas, and other wmd, provided Iraq with nuclear weapons development... Yet like always you keep trying to put all the blame on the U.S.....

Oh and lets not forget...you still try to derail the topic when the fact that "France gave Israel it's nuclear weapon program and the nuclear weapons they have".... Everytime you keep trying to ignore this and instead want to keep trying to blame the U.S....



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 04:46 PM
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Originally posted by grover
......................
Second of all and more importantly have you ever read an intelligent and not a religiously politically slanted history of Islam? I doubt it. It is a matter of history that Muhammad was involved in a life or death struggle with the pagans of Mecca and it was war. Also that Islam converted people by the sword is a lie. For the first 100 years non-Arabs were forbidden to convert because they were taxed. In fact the only one's who were ever offered the choice of convert or die were the pagans.


I was raised in Spain and got what is called in the states my high school education there.... A lot of the history of Spain has to do with the Muslims invading Spain, so I can guess that i know a bit more than most Americans because in the U.S. they don't teach you much, or at all, about the Muslim invasion in Europe.

BTW grover...keep trying to sugar coat it... We have been over this several times already....

At first Mohammed tried to convince the Jewish tribes and the Christians of the time that he was a prophet... In fact at the beginning the Muslims prayed towards Jerusalem... but since neither the Christians nor the hebrew tribes accepted him as a prophet, he ordered his people to pray towards Mecca...and he became more violent and belligerent towards Christians and more so towards the Jewish Tribes....

Mohammed "made a living by raiding not only Meccan merchant caravans, but he also led raids and drove out Jewish tribes. In a ten year period Mohammed himself planned 65 campaigns to raid caravans, and he led 27 of those raids.

Mohammed's mercy was well known among the peoples of the time. Even the Meccans, Arabs who were not Muslims, hated him, and even the very well known poetess of Medina Asma criticized him in her poetry.

Mohammed in turn sent one of his lieutenants, Omeir, who killed the poetess during her sleep... But she was not the only poet to die by order of Mohammed because he was criticized. Afak, and Kab ibn al-Ashraf criticized Mohammed for the forced conversion of the city's jews to Islam, and Mohammed justified their murders, and many others under what you now know and are trying to defend as well and call like Mohammed did "legitimate selfdefense"....

Whenever Mohammed raided, or attacked Jewish tribes and took prisoners, he gave the surviving soldiers the option to convert to Islam. the women and children were taken as slaves, the women were slave/wives for the raiders. When Jewish soldiers refused they were put to dead by beheading.... remind anyone of anything happening these days?....

Anyways, nice try grover...

[edit on 10-3-2007 by Muaddib]



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 04:51 PM
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Originally posted by grover
..............
First of Muslim means a follower of Muhammad or Islam, not a people. If you had wrote (since the Arabs converted to Islam) you would be correct.
...........


Actually you are the one wrong grover.... Muslims were all the Arabs who had converted to Islam, there were Meccans who were also Arabs but did not convert to Islam, they were forced later on... Since the Meccans, who were also Arabs, did not want to convert to Islam and since they were not fighting for Mohammed my statement was right.



posted on Mar, 10 2007 @ 05:40 PM
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Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
I have heard your arguments long enough to know that you are an extremist.

Extremist?



Dude - you do not know me at all!

But very well - you are entitled to your opinion anyway.



You don't believe in OBL, that's your prerogative.

I also do not belive in Santa - but since they both are having a big white beard, I must be on to something here; call it a Hunch...





Were you referring to those fraudulent quotes posted in Anti-Israel and anti-Jewish sites?

So are you saying that the teaching of Talmud are not as they are written to be? Are the words of those Rabbis just that 1% of Jewish extremists talking too loud? Anyway, I would just love to hear you opinion of a passage from Talmud, which goes kind of like this:

"Yebamoth 98a. All gentile children are animals."

So is that like good or bad? Tell me, I am not Jewish and I want to learn.



Any idiot can see right through the fact that NO Israeli politician would ever say such a thing even if he means it because it would mean his immediate dismissal from Israeli politics.

Again, I say to you - did you read the quotes of your former primet minister Ariel Sharon, posted by kleverone? Shall I post them again?


"I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do." Ariel Sharon

“Even today I am willing to volunteer to do the dirty work for Israel, to kill as many Arabs as necessary, to deport them, to expel and burn them, to have everyone hate us, to pull the rug from underneath the feet of the Diaspora Jews, so that they will be forced to run to us crying. Even if it means blowing up one or two synagogues here and there, I don't care.” -Ariel Sharon

I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger." -Ariel Sharon

"I don't mind if after the job is done you put me in front of a Nuremberg Trial and then jail me for life. Hang me if you want, as a war criminal. What you don't understand is that the dirty work of Zionism is not finished yet, far from it." -Ariel Sharon

How very "innocent" statements for an Israeli politician - and a former Prime Minister, also a Defense Minister during the SAbra and Shatila Massarce. But I guess you do not have a problem with him at all...



Incidentally CAMERA already clarified the story - here
(I know you do not like CAMERA. They serve the other side of the argument and your agenda doesn't concur.

CAMERA?



CAMERA is a member of the Israel Campus Roundtable, which includes the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC), Anti-Defamation League, The David Project Center for Jewish Leadership, and other pro-Israel organizations.

Yeah what a wonderful bunch of people! Especially AIPAC and ADL! I just love those Zionist guys! CAMERA must be such a source of NON-Biased information then! Let's belive them!



Suicidal tendencies of the Palesintians have less to do with their anger and despair and more to do with the the teachings of their leadership.

Yeah? You sure? How many Palestinians do you know? Have you seen where they live? Have you ever been to Palestine? Have you seen the Ghetto of Gaza Strip or West Bank? Do you think they are living in good conditions? Are their basic Human Rights granted? Are they not living under MILITARY occupation? As far as I know, more than 2704 houses in the Gaza strip has been completely demolished by the Israeli occupying forces since the outbreak of the intifada, rendering thousands of Palestinian civilians homeless. 2187 houses have been damaged and/or rendered completely uninhabitable by indiscriminate shelling, shooting, and bombardment by Israeli forces using heavy machine guns, tanks, helicopter gunships, and F-16 fighter planes. Approximately 31.503 dunums/31.5 million square meters of land in the Gaza strip, most of it agricultural, has been razed by the Israelis. This represents at least 10% of the total arable land base of the Gaza strip, much of which has been seized for use by Israeli settlers. Approximately 656 businesses, factories, or schools have been destroyed or damaged in the Gaza strip.

Yeah such a nice "Home" they have...



It is not what I believe in - It is the cold hard FACTS that Palestinian Muslims think this way.

I wonder why they do...



The Israeli's target the militants and on occasion kill, by mistake, civilians in close proximity.

But of course. Tell me - do you live in Wonderland? I mean, who exactly are you fooling here? Yourself?

So when Palestinian kids throw stones, you have to SHOOT THEM? Is that the proper way to deal with Muslims, Jewish style?

And why did Israeli Sniper Shoot a British Officla in the BACK?

Or perhaps Shooting 15-year old kids for FUN is the name of their game?

Or perhaps shooting A US Citizen as She Holds Her 9-Month-Old Baby in Her Lap is a "Mistake" as you say?

Or maybe an Israeli soldier who ADMITS he shot and Killed a UN Official in the Jenin Refugee Camp?

How about shooint and killing Two Peace Activits from Australia and Denmark ith rubber-coated steel bullets at close range?

Does that tell you anything about the Israeli Defence Forces? Shall I go on? And what about that SHOOT AND KILL POLICY, policy of inflicting indiscriminate murders and reprisals against the Palestinian people? A certain "pressure to get kills"? As IDF troops were also ordered to wait for any children or teenagers to climb onto Israeli military vehicles before killing them? In one incident a boy he thought to be aged between 8 and 12 was killed by an Israeli sniper!

Or maybe Killing a 13-year old boy IN COLD BLOOD? Plenty where that came from...



Ohh yeah I forgot . . . I am barking up the wrong tree here - This is a conspiracy forum - The JEWS control the world. The Rothschilds own the world with their banking enterprises.

Of course they do. Alongside with Bilderbergs and others. And YES - this IS a CONSPIRACY forum. That is the only thing I can agree on with you.



The wealth of the Gulf states is more than Israel can hope for.

Of course if all the money goes for the ARMY.



Israel does not OWN Washington but does have influence.

Delusions...



I do not hate Islam.

You sure about that?



Killing in the name of G-d is Bad.

Whoa!

Second thing we agree on.



Is the world still turning right?



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