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Anti-Weapons Nuts in the U.K.

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posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 12:59 AM
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I have a question regarding gun ownership in GB. Has it always been the norm? Or was there a point in your history when gun ownership was taken away from you? And, if the latter, was there much opposition to the ban?




posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 02:42 AM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
I know we're all supposed to discount everything those nasty right wing papers like the Mail, Express and Telegraph say and believe everything in the holy books of Guardian and Independant but when I walk my streets and talk to my friends the things I see and am told jibe far more closely with the former than the idealistic picture of the latter.

Bad journalism it may be, innacurate it's not.


I cannot read the Express at all these days. Their insistence on taking tiny snippets and rumours about Princess Diana and then creating front pages of total drivel every monday is bad enough, but their growing inability to report news is even worse. Total crap. The Mail and the Telegraph do have very good rugby correspondents though.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 02:45 AM
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hi, new poster to the board [well, an old one, but i've rejoined for the time being..]

i live in the UK, in a large city in the North, ~40 yrs old..

and i just need to add to this debate my experience:

i have never been threatened by anyone, robbed or mugged... the only guns i've seen are shotguns when i've gone shooting... i don't understand the fear that is displayed in our media, and repeated on this thread, i just see no evidence for it.

there's a need to discuss a government in its final days, crippled by its foreign policies, lead by a man who's about to retire and is more concerned about the 'speakers circuit' than leading a government - an impossible situation that leads to half-wit reactionary attempts at legislation to address problems that only exist in the media..

samurai swords???

the only samurai swords i've ever seen are in museums...



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 03:42 AM
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centurion1211.

It is difficult to know where to start with you, but lets try shall we?


A few years ago, some misguided people in the U.K got together and effectively banned guns in attempt to stop violence. Of course any logical person could and did try to tell them that all they would accomplish with a gun ban would be to make the criminals shift to another weapon.


The "misguided people" were influenced primarily by the massacre of 16 innocent children in a primary school in Dunblane Scotland. The evil piece of # that slaughtered these children owned handguns that were legally registered following the rules of the time. My sister lived two streets away from the school and was one of the first people to offer help to the parents of the victims. If you want to understand the impact that gun ownership has on people maybe you should sit down someday with my sister and listen to what she experienced. I am pretty certain that your blinkered and stubborn belief that weapons solve all problems would only allow you to hear what you wanted to heard though. The screams of anguish and pain as a mother learns that her 5 year old daughter had her head blown open by a 9mm handgun would I am sure add to your belief that gun ownership makes for a polite society.

Of course any logical person could and did try to tell them that all they would accomplish with a gun ban would be to make the criminals shift to another weapon.

Swords and knives have always been a staple part of the armoury of criminals in the UK. Why? No checks or licences were required. Glasgow knife gangs have been a feature of the criminal scene since the mid-19th century. Irish gangs in London were fully tooled up with knives and swords when the Peelers were originally formed and they carried cutlasses to defend themseleves. This is not new.

To quote from your external source;

"Samurai sword crime is low in volume but high in profile and I recognise it can have a devastating impact.

Crimes involving samurai swords is very low, but the press sieze upon any crime involving such weapons. Government is being driven by tabloid pressure and this would be another example of it. It has been a crime for a long time in the UK to carry a knife or sword in public, again nothing new. A ban on sales of samurai swords is going to have little or no impact, but it will allow the government to be "seen to be doing something".


I claim the right to a level playing field. The right to question and comment on the decisions made in their country and by their government.
If this is the best you can do it is not very impressive.


It might help for all to remember how the U.S. came to be as a country. We were armed citizens fighting for our freedom from a government we viewed as tyrannical. I guess the "memory" of that still lives in many of us.
The US came to be because the French bankrupted itself in order to piss off the British government. If it hadn't been for the backing of the French, Spanish and Dutch you would probably still be part of the Commonwealth.


The main difference I see is that their government has stripped the common citizen of the right and means to defend themselves.

Both the modern culture and laws of the UK have never included the "right" to bear arms for self defence. The Elizabethan era Bill of Rights allowed for only Protestants to carry arms to defend themselves against Catholics. The reality was that this law was abused and catholics were rounded up by militias and executed.


Outrageously dumb

I couldn't have put it better myself, centurion.....



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 03:52 AM
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Just to answer jsobecky's question.

Gun ownership in the UK has never been the norm. When handgun ownership was banned there was a some opposition (rightfully) from target shooting sportspeople, but in general the ownership of a handgun in the UK was coloured by the actions of Thomas Hamilton.

As shackleton points out, I too have never felt threatened enough to have to walk around with some form of weapon on me as self defence in the UK. Should anyone feel that need I would suggest it is born of paranoia brought on by reading too many copies of the Daily Mail.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Flypuppy]



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 04:08 AM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
I'm a forty year old man, I carry something now, most of the middle aged men I know now carry some form of protection, be it a hammer, scredriver or knife, sure it's wrong but the govt wont bother to make our streets safe, what are we supposed to do?


Where do you live? I'm forty and I don't carry a weapon. Of course, round here it's not as bad as some parts of England. (don't mention the little problem we had up until 10 years ago).



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 04:43 AM
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I would point out that you can legally own weapons in the UK. If you need them for your job, for instance (farmer) or you like to go hunting/shooting then you can get a licence if you can prove that you need the gun, you know all the safety regulations and you've got a secure place to store it (amongst other things, such as a clean criminal record). Indeed, I have an uncle who owns a gun - he uses it to hunt game. However, there are guns which are banned - most handguns, all automatic weapons and so forth.

This article is quite useful in explaining when, how and why guns were restricted in the UK from the beginning of the 20th century onwards. There's also an interesting comparison between homicide in London and New York, and the proportion of which involved firearms.

As I said before (and other posters have also mentioned), it's a big cultural difference between the UK and the US and both nations have to understand that to be able to comprehend the other's attitude towards guns. You can't simply apply one nation's gun laws to another because it won't solve any problems - it'll just create more.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 05:06 AM
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i think we shoulkd do what we did the first time and ship criminals to australia

but we have to have a screening so no-one good at cricket can go



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 05:12 AM
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Originally posted by shackleton
i live in the UK, in a large city in the North, ~40 yrs old..

i have never been threatened by anyone, robbed or mugged...


Really? Is it a high crime rate area of the North? I've heard that Manchester can be pretty rough. I think that Birmingham and London are the big gun crime areas though.

As people have said, a gun ban and amnesty doesn't work because it ends up the criminals are the only ones left with guns.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 06:04 AM
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Originally posted by malganis

Originally posted by shackleton
i live in the UK, in a large city in the North, ~40 yrs old..

i have never been threatened by anyone, robbed or mugged...


Really? Is it a high crime rate area of the North? I've heard that Manchester can be pretty rough. I think that Birmingham and London are the big gun crime areas though.

As people have said, a gun ban and amnesty doesn't work because it ends up the criminals are the only ones left with guns.


yes, really! its Leeds.. in terms of gun-crime, i'd have thought pretty average.. but i've walked the streets at 4am, in the 'rougher' areas, and never had a problem - even the pimps and hookers will treat you with common courtesy [providing you do the same..]...

i hear about the fear of crime day in day out, but i don't witness it...

i strongly suspect that the rise in gun-crime is predominatly gang on gang violence, not against innocent bystanders [though tragically, this does occur..]

at which point we have to address the rise in 'gangs' and address the social problems that cause young men to join gang culture rather than choose to lead a law-abiding life

one more point [if it can be called that] i feel SAFE in the UK. The chances of having a gun pulled on me is effectively zero [ie low enough so it doesn't effect how i lead my life in any way], and if it does happen the guy with the gun is looking at 5 years.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 06:57 AM
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Originally posted by ubermunche
The reason we have problems with violent and weapon related crime is simply because our justice system is so useless at handing out appropriate sentences to violent offenders so everyone sees the psychos have been given carte blanche to act as they please so everyone goes out and gets tooled up.

I'm a forty year old man, I carry something now, most of the middle aged men I know now carry some form of protection, be it a hammer, scredriver or knife, sure it's wrong but the govt wont bother to make our streets safe, what are we supposed to do?

Yeah some places are bad. I always have a kosh in my car, after having a bad experience in a friends car, we got robbed at knife point in a Leeds city centre car park. I got my phone and a gold chain taken while my friend had is BMW taken. There were only 2 of them, they wasn't even big, they just had a knife each, threatening to "slash" us up. It comes as a shock at the time though some one pointing a knife to your face.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 07:48 AM
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Just how many multiple swording sprees have happened? It doesnt matter if they move onto a knife or something else. Its very easy to go on a shooting spree and kill 20 people If you do that with any hand to hand weapon, you will get taken down easily.

Of course there is gun crime, the fact is any murder makes national news with should tell you how rare it is. Id rather take the .01% chance a criminal has a gun than a 50-50 chance of me ending up dead if we both have guns and confront each other. Of course, gun freaks arent secure enough in themselves to go without a gun.

The US is the world murder capital. Why? Because everyone has access to guns. Duh.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 08:01 AM
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Originally posted by Flyer
Of course there is gun crime, the fact is any murder makes national news with should tell you how rare it is.


That isn't true at all. There have been plenty of murders that haven't gained nationwide coverage.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 08:23 AM
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Originally posted by Flyer
The US is the world murder capital.


while i agree with your sentiment, the USA is not the murder capital of the world..

Murders per capita

this is 1998-2000, but still relevant i guess..

from this site you can also see that the gun murders per capita in the US is 30x that in the UK, which is no surprise..

what is a surprise, also on this site, is that the Murders per Capita is only 3 fold higher in the states than it is in the uk... so we find other ways to murder... still feel safe though



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 08:31 AM
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Guns don't kill people, people kill people!

This saying is true well almost true;

Switzerland has one of the highest percentage of Gun ownership in the world but gun related incidences are dramatically lower that that of the US.

But

Switzerland has the highest percentage of gun crime in Europe.

The fact is guns make it alot easier to kill someone or yourself, you are much more likely to survive a knife attack than a bullet wound and a suicide attempt is more likely to be succesful if you have access to a gun as oppossed to taking an overdose.

It would be great to impose very strict gun controls in the USA but the fact is there are MILLIONS of firearms in the country, it would be too late to force a ban. The only way to make people safer from gun crime in the US's case would be to educate citizens better.

A ban on carrying firarms in public supported by severe consequences for breaking the ban may also work along with the right to bear arms be taken away from citizens with a violent or unstable criminal history.

Life IS NOT cheap!



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 08:38 AM
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all the recent gun crimes in the uk have all been in a few places. mosside,clapham,brixton and that place in liverpool...all these places have always been known for violence and gun crimes, nothing has changed,its just gone through a recent spate.

a solution would be more armed police, to stop incidents like p.c sharon beshinisky's death and a vast reform of out criminal justice system...because lets face it when a 70year old women who wont pay her council tax increase gets a longer jail sentence than an illegal immigrant that can steal a car and run over a little girl...somthing isnt right.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 09:54 AM
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Originally posted by shackleton
while i agree with your sentiment, the USA is not the murder capital of the world..

Murders per capita

this is 1998-2000, but still relevant i guess..

from this site you can also see that the gun murders per capita in the US is 30x that in the UK, which is no surprise..

what is a surprise, also on this site, is that the Murders per Capita is only 3 fold higher in the states than it is in the uk... so we find other ways to murder... still feel safe though
Yes I do, if someone shoots a gun at me, theres no way to defend myself. If someone comes at me with a knife. I can beat them without a weapon myself.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 10:41 AM
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If you are over 17 in the UK you can own a 12 gauge shotgun, providing you have a license, no criminal record, and a place to store it.



However, if you choose to defend your home with it.... You are in BIG trouble.




The problem in the UK is it's drugged up mentaly retarded youth. These are the ones who carry knives and mug you for your mobile phone. The sheer number of these young people that roam the streets in some areas is pretty stupid.


A huge percentage of gun crime in the UK seems to be 'black on black' shooting incidents in and around London involving gang related fallouts. These aren't the types of people to get approval to own a gun license, or get a shooting club membership.




[edit on 6-3-2007 by Spreadthetruth]



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 11:21 AM
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Originally posted by Flypuppy
Just to answer jsobecky's question.

Gun ownership in the UK has never been the norm. When handgun ownership was banned there was a some opposition (rightfully) from target shooting sportspeople, but in general the ownership of a handgun in the UK was coloured by the actions of Thomas Hamilton.

As shackleton points out, I too have never felt threatened enough to have to walk around with some form of weapon on me as self defence in the UK. Should anyone feel that need I would suggest it is born of paranoia brought on by reading too many copies of the Daily Mail.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Flypuppy]


MY paranoia was brought on by being involved in an assualt totally unprovoked by five teeneagers that erupted out of nowhere and could have gone very badly if it weren't for timely intervention, I could also mention any number of incidents ranging from murder to assualt with severe injuries and disfigurement that have occured over the past couple of months in the borough I live in, all having one thing in common gangs of youths randomly attacking innocent people. Sorry I don't live in the borough of Fluffly Bunny where you obviously reside, flicking thru the Gaurdian and feeling smug and oh so better informed than the rest of us plebs.
I'm also sorry my experiences don't help feed YOUR irrational paranoia about a news paper mate but I can only tell it like it is.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 12:13 PM
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hi im a newbie on here and felt like i had to reply.
i think that the problem in this country is the sentences handed out by the courts, they arent hard enough, and on top of that weve got a government who tell judges not to jail people because of overcrowding!
build more jails, make them uncomfortable, give the prisoners hard labour and most of all - long sentences!
young offenders should get harder sentences as well, asbo's and cautions do not work.

regards
flesheater.
now, where are my nearest stocks?



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