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Who owns the U.S Debt

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posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 04:44 AM
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Just quickly, getting late but....


Why would I want to go long in gold when gold is already at a high price? You hope it'll go to $1,200 USD just so you can make an 80% gain? Fat chance. Mines are closing, operations are becomming to expensive, and exploration is winding down, Gold is heading for a decline here in a few years because the mining industry is burning out. Analysts won't tell you that, exploration geologists will.


Just to cover for inflation, Gold would reach 2000. And that is only the end of stage 1. We got 3 more stages to go and when there is higher inflation; people will run for a flight to quality. Every day, I see the same old Working Financial Group (JP Morgan, Chase, Sacs etc) come into the market early and use the derivatives market and paper shorting to # Gold and Silver. Why are there so many short positions on gold and silver unless we have a manipulated market? These bog boys have a deal with the US gov to cover them for their losses. SO we do what they do and lose but they still win. Wanna great job after working in the SEC with Chase-Manhattan? Then just keep looking in the other direction and a big fat retirement job is waiting for you. You know the drill, they are all involved and that's why all these charts, waves and graphs are useless. In a rigged marked companies and businesses are getting screwed all without knowing how much money and credit (M3) is being issued.

We are in the biggest Bull market in history, are you not going to take advantage of it?


It still has a good market but not for much longer.


Gold has risen against inflation more than all the currency's in the last 5 years or more. I bought Crystallex and Gold Corp and Silver Standard for pennies on the dollar and now check em out. Protect yourself against inflation. Hopefully you’re not too highly leveraged considering that most American families are living off consuming their mortgages via refinancing. That is about to end.


I give gold maybe 3 years of continued mediocre gain and I doubt it'll push $1,000 USD. London's Boullion Market Association's Market Makers' analysts seem to agree that Gold won't really breach anything like the "buy gold" buffoons are claiming.


Very few of those so-called experts are old enough to remember the expression “saving up for a rainy day" which originated in the Depression. Few people are old enough to follow all the up's and down's in the markets and even fewer people today on WS understand the Gold and Silver markets. In the 80's we almost had a crisis and we saw Gold rise to 850. That was going to be a Depression but the working financial Group decided to attack the real estate industry, which saved the US dollar. This time around, they cannot raise real estate interest rates much higher because the public are too highly leveraged and at the same time they cannot continue with inflation - as it will create the condition - PUSHING ON STRING.


I think the high non conservative estimate was about $900... JP Morgan puts it at less than that for the following year. I tend to like what those guys think.


It is people like JP Morgan that are buying up all the Gold secretly. They are also leasing the European's Gold and they call it cheap melt. They are running out of physical gold that can use to sell, or are not willing to sell any more. Do you see the enormous amount of shorting going on? Who can buy all that unless it is the same people selling it? They are using it to drive down the price of Gold and Silver etc. You know that customary thing in India where those entire crazy women are buying up all the Gold? It's hurting Morgan and pals -that's where physical buyers are gonna win out in the end. Like a spring, fundamental always win over fiat.
Take your gold and bury it with your guns – as the old expression goes. Our government is our greatest enemy. If you buy gold, hold onto stock, and numismatic coins while we are in hyper inflation. Sell the silver and the numismatic and stocks and keep bullion on the way down.


[edit on 5-3-2007 by sweftl337]




posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 04:48 AM
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Originally posted by FreiMaurer
I have a better article (by my standards) from the London Boullion Market Association entitled something like "Why not the Gold Bricked Road?" and it argues against the Gold Standard because it holds back growing economies etc...good article.

I'll have to find it for you later I hear blackhawks thumping around so I better check this out.


It's been a pleasure to have your input and the others also.

You make a solid point but issuing money and credit (M3) needs to be controlled also. The inflation for emergencies is one thing but they have been inflating for a while now and lying about the actual numbers. Thus, the reason they hide the M3.

Sweft



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 05:17 AM
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My calculations on M3:

M2 money increased $12.3 billion to a record $7.111 trillion.

Thus M3: M2*75%

= 5.333 trillon.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 05:18 AM
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Well though I don't believe your conspiracies about JPM buying gold up "secretly" - I wouldn't care I own enough of them anyway more power to them.

I'll be brief so in short - it's the Gold Standard that caused the depression.

Why do you think the US economy has grown almost every year out of the last 70?

That's not a normal trend...the US economy went through cyclical depressions and inflations before the Gold Standard, now we only go through inflation.

Someday the world will stop growing so "rapidly" (when the 3rd world catches up) and then the gold standard would probably be useful again...but until then...no.

And no, Gold won't break 2,000 any more than it'll break 660 tomorrow ( what i mean is that IS adjusted for inflation then it'll be 20 years before it reaches 2,000 just by keeping with inflation).

To break a profit you'd have had to have bought Gold about 20 years ago.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 06:35 AM
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Bull#. Read your bible. United States on it's way up before it goes down.

www.golden-lamp.com

Roman Usury. Check eye of the needle. Your government, that ensures that the things that we want are illegalized so a profit can be made. Check Roman Destruction of Jerusalem 70AD. Check your puppet government. Here's a diagram (scroll to the bottom).

www.golden-lamp.com/_21.htm



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 07:54 AM
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Freemaurer, what is your opinion of economists Murray Rothbard and Ludwig von Mises?

Why can’t the US Government Issue interest-free money? Why does it need the Federal Reserve at all? - they don’t. (surely not in its current form) Check out the video from the Ludwig von Mises Institute.


Google Video Link


video.google.com...
---

Here’s another source (US treas., 1998) regarding who owes the debt...


Q: To whom do we owe all this money? Who owns the Debt?

A: Here is a pie chart showing the makeup, or ownership, of the National Debt as of December 1998.

www.brillig.com..." border=0>


As you can see, the largest slice of the pie, over 40%, is owed to the Federal Reserve Bank and to other government accounts; that is, this part of the Debt is owed by one part of the government to another. The remaining 60% of the Debt, roughly $3.3 trillion, is privately held.

www.brillig.com...


I disagree with the line I bolded - Obviously the Federal Reserve is not “part of the government”.


[edit on 5/3/07 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 04:42 PM
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Um the reason there needs to be interest on the money is it is a break on the economy, if money costs more then the economy grows less - essentially. It's better and more controllable than sell-offs like what's happening right now thanks to China.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 06:32 PM
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Couldn’t they just print less money to achieve the same effect? (restrict money supply to make the economy grow less)

Why the Fed?



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by FreiMaurer
Um the reason there needs to be interest on the money is it is a break on the economy, if money costs more then the economy grows less - essentially. It's better and more controllable than sell-offs like what's happening right now thanks to China.


FreiMaurer,

Every decent man deserves to work on his golf backhand and thus every decent man deserves to buy some better clubs. They steal our purchasing power by the issuing of money and credit without the public or Congresses approval. Some points to keep in mind:

Money is a means of exchange and no-one has the right to charge interest on it.

Money is the promise to pay, but not the payment itself.

Money need not be 100% backed but needs some backing (cannot be fiat)

Money need not be backed by Gold. It can be Talley sticks, silver, or even stones, but it must have some backing to track money and credit.

The Depression was caused by bad banking practice, and not by having a gold standard. We had a gold standard for many years after the Depression but it was not until the time of Nixon that they removed it. People's quality of life was essentially cut into a quarter via the income tax and another quarter after the Gold standard was removed. It was caused by hyper inflation (money in wheelbarrows) followed by a period of deflation. Green backs are not a cause of the Depression and neither is having a gold-backed currency.

The Gold Smith’s of yesterday are the money lenders of today. Thus they know that, which you do not.

We operate in a system of equity and thus we own nothing. The bad guys want to own nothing! They want control over the assets, see? Buying with gold gives you true ownership -under tender and not "legal" tender.

The government can take anything they want from us. They can take your money, your Gold (recall Nixon?), your home, your kids and even your life. So buy lots of guns or pray whichever you most prefer so that you and I can play a game of golf together in peace.

The FED lends money to Bush, for wars but the debt is rolled over to the people. Thus bad government spending is not capped and Congress had no real control over the issuing of money on behalf of the people.

Income tax goes to the shareholders of the FED - not one penny goes toward infrastructure. They give you a little back during tax time, if you invest it back into their banks - thus they thank you for helping to keep their spinning top from toppling over and collapsing.

The crappy value Rupees is the future of America, not the past. Ha, I just had to throw that in :-)

The system of legal tender is fiat. Tender is Gold and fiat dollars are not worth the paper, the ink is it written on.

The FED is a cartel and every day the call up the firms, banks and government officials and goes about paper shirting Gold and Silver.

The Communists caused the latest drop in the Dow to send a message to the Illuminist’s that they don't give a hoot about their threats to place tariffs on the crap coming into America from China.

Can you compete against slave labor?

Tariffs are the correct thing to do. Communism likes free trade and so they also ensure that the Yen is undervalued and this makes it better for them and worse for us.

When the middle class is gone in America, who will buy all that crap coming in from China? The Chinese wont'!



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 09:17 PM
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Originally posted by sweftl337
When the middle class is gone in America, who will buy all that crap coming in from China? The Chinese wont'!


Chinese Factory Worker Can't Believe The # He Makes For Americans (the Onion)


and FreiMaurer, I'm not sure why interest on every US dollar (in the form of bond or other financial instrument) makes it more controllable. Could you expand on that? Smells like a scam to me, a world-wide one at that.

[edit on 5/3/07 by ConspiracyNut23]



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 10:05 PM
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Originally posted by sweftl337
When the middle class is gone in America, who will buy all that crap coming in from China?


Middle class mexicans, of course they won't be called mexicans anymore, we'll all be called North American Unioners.

Just one big happy family.


[edit on 5-3-2007 by In nothing we trust]



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 05:30 AM
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This is the best thread that I have read since joining ATS, just had to say it. Between Frei and Sweft, as well as others, some very interesting arguments and points have been raised. I wish I had time right now to join in, but sadly I haven't, I've spent the last hour reading and digesting.

It is refreshing to find debating that has not degraded into name calling which so many seem to do. I have learnt a lot. Cheers.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 04:36 PM
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I see a lot of misconceptions here still - for instance "Gold is real money" what a load of crap. Do you know who made that system? The Venetians through years of using the mongolian "Golden Horde" to plunder other countries for their gold in exchange for European Silver.

Money is what people make it into - Venetians gave us the Gold Standard (and cost Europe dearly in the 1200s) and it stuck for a few hundred years before Europeans got tired of it.

Simple as that.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 08:36 PM
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Originally posted by FreiMaurer
I see a lot of misconceptions here still - for instance "Gold is real money" what a load of crap. Do you know who made that system? The Venetians through years of using the mongolian "Golden Horde" to plunder other countries for their gold in exchange for European Silver.

Money is what people make it into


I suppose you would be in favor of a mark based economic system?

Perhaps a bar coded chip could be implaneted under the skin of everyone on the planet which acts like a debit card.

And then we wouldn't have to worry about what money is based upon. It either is, or it is not.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by FreiMaurer
I see a lot of misconceptions here still -


If they are any misconceptions in the Ludwig von Mises Institute video, I'd love to hear what you have to say on that.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 09:20 PM
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Originally posted by In nothing we trust

Originally posted by FreiMaurer
I see a lot of misconceptions here still - for instance "Gold is real money" what a load of crap. Do you know who made that system? The Venetians through years of using the mongolian "Golden Horde" to plunder other countries for their gold in exchange for European Silver.

Money is what people make it into


I suppose you would be in favor of a mark based economic system?

Perhaps a bar coded chip could be implaneted under the skin of everyone on the planet which acts like a debit card.

And then we wouldn't have to worry about what money is based upon. It either is, or it is not.


Money is a simple concept in principle complicated only by manipulation.

Basically it is a payment in exchange for a good or service, it could be seeds, feathers, metals, paper, cotton-linen as is the US's.

So what does it matter if it's just "fiat" you'd have to have the entire US government collapse to have its worth become "worthless". As it stands, rejection of US money in payment for anything can result in arrest.

Say you are selling lemonade, and you reject someone's dollar saying you only accept Gold coins, you do NOT have the right as the "seller" to refuse service based on types of currency. US currency MUST be accepted at an exchange rate not deemed "price gouging" and is enforced by imprisonment.

Simple as that.



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 09:47 PM
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That's see,

Current Foreign Investment increased from 14.5% in '95 to 25% in '06.

Current US Gov't holdings increased from 33% in '95 to 52% in '06.

In other words, if the debt is forgiven by the US (SS is destroyed) than Foreign holdings sky rocket from 25% to 52% in '06. Hmmm . . . I think we will just print money and screw the world?

Not that there is anything wrong with that!

Buy Gold and Silver now!



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by mel1962
That's see,

Current Foreign Investment increased from 14.5% in '95 to 25% in '06.

Current US Gov't holdings increased from 33% in '95 to 52% in '06.

In other words, if the debt is forgiven by the US (SS is destroyed) than Foreign holdings sky rocket from 25% to 52% in '06. Hmmm . . . I think we will just print money and screw the world?

Not that there is anything wrong with that!

Buy Gold and Silver now!


I keep saying but no one seems to listen? Gold and Silver are projected to grow less than 1% and negatively grow in value per ounce over the next year.

So ... why buy these they aren't really even considered investments at that point?



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by FreiMaurer

Originally posted by mel1962
That's see,

Current Foreign Investment increased from 14.5% in '95 to 25% in '06.

Current US Gov't holdings increased from 33% in '95 to 52% in '06.

In other words, if the debt is forgiven by the US (SS is destroyed) than Foreign holdings sky rocket from 25% to 52% in '06. Hmmm . . . I think we will just print money and screw the world?

Not that there is anything wrong with that!

Buy Gold and Silver now!


I keep saying but no one seems to listen? Gold and Silver are projected to grow less than 1% and negatively grow in value per ounce over the next year.

So ... why buy these they aren't really even considered investments at that point?


Gold and Silver are finite commodities, mining of these minerals have dimished or peaked. Plus the fact they are used in industry and people of China and India can now own. Than add the fact the US government is no longer reporting M3 and the only way to erase the debt is to print money and cheapen it! That makes most commodities great hedges against inflation!



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 10:18 PM
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Originally posted by FreiMaurer
Say you are selling lemonade, and you reject someone's dollar saying you only accept Gold coins, you do NOT have the right as the "seller" to refuse service based on types of currency. US currency MUST be accepted at an exchange rate not deemed "price gouging" and is enforced by imprisonment.

Simple as that.


And that would be why we are about to invade Iran, if they do indeed stop trading oil for dollars in the next few weeks or months.



[edit on 6-3-2007 by In nothing we trust]



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