Evolve a Messiah? Evolve a Savior? Evolve a Christ?

A Hale and Hearty Hello to All!

Lately, I've been wondering about the human potential.

What is the ultimate potential of evolving life in a Universe as vast and as wondrous as our own?

Is it possible that the potential exists to evolve a "Savior"? And what does Science say about the evolutionary potential of life?

Think about it. Does Science now provide substantial evidence to support the belief that the existence of a "Savior," such as the one symbolized by the word "Messiah" or "Christ," is within the realm of life's evolutionary potential? I believe it does, and have evidence to prove it.

What are the scientific facts and theories, if any, that supports such a hypothesis? Is it even possible to have a religion based on science?

Also, are some of the established archaic religions and/or insidiously covert ‘secret societies’ involved in any kind of "CONSPIRACY" to suppress or support scientific knowledge of humanity's tremendous evolutionary potential? Are they suppressing scientific proof that mankind can evolve a 'Messiah'?

Perhaps you might have uncovered a secret conspiracy involving the intentional suppression of knowledge about mankind's tremendous evolutionary potential? About the potential for the evolution of a 'Christ'? If so, please let us know about it.

I've always suspected that there were dark and terrible forces at work to stunt human progress, dumming down the people, and seeking to bring us back into dark ages of ignorance and fear. Why else have some religions been so vehemently anti-science for the past 2 thousand years?

Does mankind possess an unlimited evolutionary potential? Can mankind contribute to the evolution of a 'Christ'? And who are those individuals or institutions involved in the grand conspiracy to keep hidden the truth about this potential from mankind? Isn't it time we shed some light on this topic?

Which of these options do you believe could be true?

1.) Jesus is the Christ.
2.) Mankind will evolve a Messiah.
3.) Aliens elsewhere in the Universe already evolved a Savior.
4.) Intelligent machines will eventually evolve a 'Cybernetic Christ'?
5.) Some other system for 'salvation' exists.
6.) None of the above.

Are there other options?

Thanks for your comments.

PS: Learn more here: Scientific Salvation?




[edit on 3/2/2007 by Rudolph_X]

The most obvious way to suppress any taboo subject is simply by not talking about it.

I suppose we can call it ‘the conspiracy of silence’.

Then there is also the fear of blasphemy. No one wants to blaspheme any other religion, so it probably is difficult to talk about subject matter, like this, when it touches upon the deeply held beliefs of others. This very rational fear of the scientific potential could be one of the main reasons why religious folks become involved in a conspiracy of silence?

Perhaps it is better to just simply ignore this topic and not mention a word about it to anyone ever again. This way we can all be co-conspirators… We can all be involved in ‘the conspiracy of silence’.

Thanks again.

If your saying that the conspiracy of silence has to do with no one responding...give it time. Some threads just arent replied to.

Not sure anyone is worried about stating their opinions...though some may be.
(Read my ATS blog and you will see that I dont beat around the bush about my thoughts of the Bible...or any of my threads here such as You dont have a soul

So, if I am understanding you correctly, again, I dont think its a case of people being afraid to express themselves. - especially here at ATS where everyone seems to have an opinion and more.

About Messiah...why try so hard to even fit a messiah into the picture?
It seems that the whole concept of 'needing' any kind of savior would fall under what you call the 'conspriacy of silence'.

But, maybe to try to follow your line of thinking, the closest would be that of 'messianic consciousness'...where you do self evlove and realize you dont need something outside of yourself to 'save' you.

Not that this is bad, we are like babes...we have to learn to walk, so we crawl first.
Religion has its purpose, and then you move on.

Peace

dAlen

Which of these options do you believe could be true?

1.) Jesus is the Christ.
2.) Mankind will evolve a Messiah.
3.) Aliens elsewhere in the Universe already evolved a Savior.
4.) Intelligent machines will eventually evolve a 'Cybernetic Christ'?
5.) Some other system for 'salvation' exists.
6.) None of the above.

I'm going with #1 for $5000.
And I'd like to buy a vowel.

Sounds like Dune, or 40K.

When you say messiah do mean an actual saviour, or do you mean a person with saviour-like abilities? The second one is something I consider to be highly possible at some point in the future.

I was actually considering writing a novel using the evolution of a saviour-like individual, but I doubt any will come from the idea.

For an individual to grow/mature/evolve to its best ability, s/he realizes that s/he is not the only one of prime importance in the universe, that there are others with which to interact for continuing to evolve. A totally dependent infant must learn to develop into an independent being, working dependently with everyone else in the world. We all are individuals at the same time acting in everyone else's karma/Life.

Society's also must "suffer" this evolution. Humanity must suffer this evolution. Growing up is not painfree, is it?

More people are realizing right now, at this point in the evolving process, that we need to grow beyond a need for a "God" to worship as our ancestors did, a God to blame for everything that humans/nature cause. WE are responsible, WE have to act responsibly.

So, no, we don't need any more "saviors". We just need to wake up and realize that we all need to be Saviors. WE are the Saviors, of ourselves and others.

There is no place for fear in Love. If someone or some group/nation says "be afraid" because you love someone/group/nation, then that is not acting out of Love. Being afraid keeps individuals/groups/nations victims, thus being able to be controlled.

Hello dAlen.

Thanks for your comments.

Originally posted by dAlen
If your saying that the conspiracy of silence has to do with no one responding...give it time. Some threads just arent replied to.

Not sure anyone is worried about stating their opinions...though some may be.
(Read my ATS blog and you will see that I dont beat around the bush about my thoughts of the Bible...or any of my threads here such as You dont have a soul

So, if I am understanding you correctly, again, I dont think its a case of people being afraid to express themselves. - especially here at ATS where everyone seems to have an opinion and more.

It takes a certain level of courage to point out conspiracies in religion. Throughout our history many various Christian religions have conspired against the advancement of science, and in particular, in more recent times, against concepts of human evolution.

Prince Albert, the prince consort to Queen Victoria of England, was a strong advocate of Evolution and a great patron of the Sciences. He was active in organizing the scientific epochal Great Exhibition in 1851 at the Crystal Palace, in London, to highlight the scientific wonders of his day, including dinosaur fossil exhibits. I always suspected that a conspiracy in the Anglican Church was involved in his untimely death, and in the propaganda used against him that caused many Britons to regard Albert as a meddling foreigner before his death. I even suspect that they were also involved in burning down the Crystal Palace many years later after the exhibition closed.

I also suspect that the Anglican Church was also involved in the conspiracy to eliminate Princess Diana, because she apparently was going to marry a Muslim and possibly convert to Islam.

I’ve even heard of a contract with the Anglican Church where the British Monarch must swear allegiance to be ‘defender of the faith’ of the Anglican Church before being crowned, and so in essence must be anti-science. (Prince Charles is the only member of the Royal Family ever to have said that he was considering forswearing such an oath.)

Then one has to wonder why the House of Lords is packed with Anglican Bishops, and what influence, what kind of stranglehold they have over the Britons, Great Britain and its Royal Family.

It certainly takes a great deal of courage to speak about religious conspiracies, even in these modern times. So, I don’t begrudge those who, out of fear for their very lives, choose the ‘conspiracy of silence’.

About Messiah...why try so hard to even fit a messiah into the picture?
It seems that the whole concept of 'needing' any kind of savior would fall under what you call the 'conspriacy of silence'..

I suspect mankind already has the scientific technology, although it is being kept secret, to achieve virtual immortality for everyone on earth today. However, most people who have lived on this earth are already dead, so even if we can achieve virtual immortality through scientific means for ourselves, this does not solve the problem of the resurrection. It might take mankind much longer to solve the resurrection problem. Because achieving virtual immortality for ourselves is not enough, we also want to ‘raise the dead’ as well. A long term plan to evolve a Savior, such as the one symbolized by the word 'Messiah' or 'Christ', through scientific means, seems to me to be the right way to go about it.

But, maybe to try to follow your line of thinking, the closest would be that of 'messianic consciousness'...where you do self evlove and realize you dont need something outside of yourself to 'save' you.

Some of the Hindu and Tibetan religions, and some Theosophical philosophies, seem to indicate that individuals can raise their own individual level of consciousness to such an extent where they can freely travel around the cosmos in some sort of 'astral body', and while fully conscious they can discard an old worn out body and enter into a new baby's body, while fully conscious, and thereby have no need of any sort of salvation. They also claim that only one out of a billion persons can do such a thing, and only after having reincarnated innumerable times, in a process of spiritual 'soul' evolution. I suppose there can be many paths which eventually all lead to the same place, so I wouldn't say that such a thing is impossible.

Not that this is bad, we are like babes...we have to learn to walk, so we crawl first.
Religion has its purpose, and then you move on.

I suppose Science might also be a sort of religion.

Thanks again.



[edit on 3/3/2007 by Rudolph_X]

Hello Eyes2see.

Thanks for your comment.

Originally posted by eyes2see

Which of these options do you believe could be true?

1.) Jesus is the Christ.
2.) Mankind will evolve a Messiah.
3.) Aliens elsewhere in the Universe already evolved a Savior.
4.) Intelligent machines will eventually evolve a 'Cybernetic Christ'?
5.) Some other system for 'salvation' exists.
6.) None of the above.

I'm going with #1 for $5000.
And I'd like to buy a vowel.

Good choice!

However, after looking at the list I realized that I forgot to include the following catchall category (option #7):

7.) All of the above (1 to 5).

Now you might be wondering how someone could choose option #7, since it would include all the other options 1 to 5 inclusively? These other options might at first seem to contradict one another, but in a Universe of infinite possibilities it just might be possible?

For example, hypothetically, maybe God created his only "Son" who originaly sat at the right hand of God in heaven? Exactly how God created Him is still be a mystery to most of us, whether by spontaneous generation or through a gradual process of evolution is still a subject of debate to researchers (evolution vs. creationism etc.).

Nevertheless, again hypothetically, having come into existence the 'Son of God' is said to have sat at the right hand of God in heaven. Then when mankind had fallen from grace, and become mortal, the need for 'Salvation' arose. Here the traditional Christian story tells us that God's Son volunteered to pay the price for man's sin, to become the redeemer and incarnate in the body of a man named Jesus, and Jesus became Christ the redeemer of mankind, etc., by paying the price for mankind's salvation.

Similarly, again hypothetically, could it be possible that the soul of an evolved futuristic 'Christ' could somehow go back in time and be reincarnated into a past life, perhaps to become incarnated in Jesus? So, could options 2, 3, and/or 4, theoretically be combined with option #1 - making option #7 another possiblity?

For the sake of clarity I think I should redo the list.

1.) Jesus is the Christ.
2.) Mankind will evolve a Messiah.
3.) Aliens elsewhere in the Universe already evolved a Savior.
4.) Intelligent machines will eventually evolve a 'Cybernetic Christ'?
5.) Some other system for 'salvation' exists.
6.) All of the above.
7.) None of the above.


(The new list swithes item #6 with #7.)

Thanks again.


[edit on 3/4/2007 by Rudolph_X]

Hello Perturabo.

Thanks for your comments.

Originally posted by Perturabo
Sounds like Dune, or 40K.

I have no joke here. I just like saying, "Kwisatz Haderach".

When you say messiah do mean an actual saviour, or do you mean a person with saviour-like abilities? The second one is something I consider to be highly possible at some point in the future..

It takes more than just one individual to accomplish big goals, like building a space shuttle, and maybe going to the moon or mars. It requires teamwork, of like minded individuals working together, each doing what he can in his own way, to accomplish that goal.

My idea would be something like going from 'homo-sapiens' to 'homo-christus', a transformation of the entire species of man, up to the next level. Mankind wouldn't need to evolve any new physical appendage, like a new claw or set of fangs. The new appendage could simply be an abstract idea or common belief in the promise and evolutionary potential of mankind. Once everyone realizes that they have the potential to contribute to the evolution of a "Savior" that idea alone can be the new appendage that makes the individual a new creature, 'homo-christus'. The transformation of our species is now already in progress. It is just a matter of time that folks will wake up to the reality of their own tremendous evolutionary potential. Each of us can help by spreading the word, and by being decent upright folks contributing to the improvement and stability of society.

I was actually considering writing a novel using the evolution of a saviour-like individual, but I doubt any will come from the idea.

Sounds like an interesting idea. But, people really don't need to write books or novels anymore to get their ideas out. Today we have the internet, blogs, and Bboards like ATS.

Thanks again.


[edit on 3/5/2007 by Rudolph_X]

1,
2,
3,
5,
and
6.

respectively,

runetang

Rudolph_X, I rather like the use of "homo-christus". What a great thought. The name truly would imply homosapien potential. I'm ready to start using it now

Someday, someday...

Hello Desert.

Thanks for your comments.

Originally posted by desert

... We just need to wake up and realize that we all need to be Saviors. WE are the Saviors, of ourselves and others.

Philip Handler, President of the National Academy of Sciences, reporting
for the Survey Committee on the Life Sciences, which was appointed by
the Committee on Science and Public Policy, clearly stated:

"Althoughman arose out of an evolutionary process that he didn't understand and over which he had no control, he must realize that he is unique in the known living world in the realization that the responsibility for the continuance of this process is his. ... The evolutionary view gives man not only a sense of humility but also a sense of responsibility. The question is not whether man is to influence evolution or not; he is already doing so, and indeed changing things more rapidly now than at any other time in recent history. He now has not only the opportunity to influence the other species, as he has done in the past with domestic plants and animals, but also the opportunity - perhaps the obligation - to influence his own future evolution. The capacity of biologists to develop ways by which man can determine his future evolution is undoubted. The more difficult question is whether he will choose to make such decisions, and with what wisdom." [1]

The whole nobility of man is derived from this freedom of choice, and that man will freely decide to choose to pursue human advancement and scientific progress.

However, we cannot forget that dark and terrible forces of evil are even now still conspiring against us, and with 'bloody tooth and claw' will hang on to their powers that they use to degrade and degenerate mankind for their own heinous purposes. Mankind must first break the yoke of these hideous powers and principalities before we can truly be free to move ahead.


Thanks again.

__________________

1. Philip Handler, ed., "Biology and the Future of Man," Oxford
University Press, New York, 1970, p. 492.



[edit on 3/8/2007 by Rudolph_X]

Originally posted by runetang
1,
2,
3,
5,
and
6.

respectively,

runetang

Hello Runetang.

Thanks for your comments.

I see you left option #4 out of your selections.

4.) Intelligent machines will eventually evolve a 'Cybernetic’ Christ.

Speaking in a purely hypothetical manner, I don’t think this option should be discounted too quickly, without a fair hearing. It does have a high probability of becoming an actualized reality, since at present rates the machines are evolving far quicker than the humans are. Some reputable scientists are even claiming that sentient machines are not as far off as most people would imagine.

It is very likely that humans will continue to integrated machines into their way of being. The temptations of having the benefits derived from machines to help correct human flaws and shortcomings, and add new capabilities to humans, are too great.

Mankind might even transition into a human/machine hybrid type being until he becomes more machine than human, and eventually the machines may continue to evolve until they reach a state of pure engineered multi-dimensional highly organized energy patterns? (UFO fans see these types of seemingly intelligent highly organized energy patterns materializing in the skies almost on a daily basis.)

Who knows how far these machines could evolve once they become sentient and capable of replicating and improving themselves? What kind of God or Religion would sentient evolving machines have? Wouldn’t they owe us a debt of gratitude for having created them?

Is it possible, also, that in some far-flung future the ‘God of the Machines’ will wage war against the ‘God of Man’ for ultimate dominion of the universe? Or, if there really is only one God is that God of both Man and Machines the same God? And that brings us to the unsettling question: Is God a machine?

Thanks again.


[edit on 3/17/2007 by Rudolph_X]

Earlier on I made some real dumb statements that I've come to regret, and I heartily appologize for having made such idiotic and unfounded comments. I apologize to the Anglican Church of England the Royal Family and to all the British people and pray for forgiveness for my comments regarding Prince Albert's untimely death. Please forgive me.

The closest I can get to an answer is "all of the above". Meher Baba says:

THE AVATAR
Meher Baba

Consciously or unconsciously, every living creature seeks one thing. In the lower forms of life and in less advanced human beings, the quest is unconscious: in advanced human beings, it is conscious. The object of the quest is called by many names — happiness, peace, freedom, truth, love, perfection, Self-realization, God-realization, union with God. Essentially, it is a search for all of these, but in a special way. Everyone has moments of happiness, glimpses of truth, fleeting experiences of union with God; what they want is to make them permanent. They want to establish an abiding reality in the midst of constant change.

This is a natural desire, based fundamentally on a memory — dim or clear as the evolution of the individual soul may be low or high — of its essential unity with God. For every living thing is a partial manifestation of God, conditioned only by its lack of knowledge of its own true nature. The whole of evolution, in fact, is an evolution from unconscious divinity to conscious divinity, in which God Himself, essentially eternal and unchangeable, assumes an infinite variety of forms, enjoys an infinite variety of experiences, and transcends an infinite variety of self-imposed limitations.

Evolution from the standpoint of the Creator is a divine sport, in which the Unconditioned tests the infinitude of His absolute knowledge, power and bliss in the midst of all conditions. But evolution from the standpoint of the creature, with its limited knowledge, limited power, limited capacity for enjoying bliss, is an epic of alternating rest and struggle, joy and sorrow, love and hate — until in the perfected person, God balances the pairs of opposites, and duality is transcended.

www.avatarmeherbaba.org...

-------------------------------------
Mod edit

Added 'ex' tags and a link

Pklease read Posting work written by others

www.abovetopsecret.com...


[edit on 7/8/07 by masqua]

reply to post by Rudolph_X


For the record, I picked option 5. My explanation for this is detailed below after reviewing the link further explaining Rudolph-X’s information.

Maybe I don’t quite understand entirely what you are saying, and really have no interest in buying and or reading your book full of mathematics, arcane or otherwise, – simply because I am more a philosopher than a mathematician - but it seems what you propose - summarized to simplicity - is the elimination and replacement of Homo Sapiens on this planet by means of scientific (cybernetic - biological – genetic?) manipulation guised in the form of the advancement of mankind.

While I can’t really argue that that might not be a bad place to start for a better tomorrow, (i.e. – eliminate man from tomorrow) I can’t help but be reminded of so many science fiction stories where similar ideas had backfired on the original planner’s intents ... (The entire Dune series, Star Trek’s Eugenics programs that produced Kahn, the AI of Orion’s Arm, The Island of Doctor Moreau ...). On a more serious note, I am also concerned by scientific failings such as the inability to understand the entirety of human DNA, which would seem key to developing any spontaneous mutagenic evolution of the human species. If one would seek cybernetic assistance in this leap, I must confess some ignorance on as to how that might be accomplished. That’s not to say that in the near future, we might not understand such procedures better, I’m sure we will eventually, but probably not for some time and not without a lot of growth on the socio-political front as well as the ethical one.

You are quite correct in quoting the ancient Greeks, that to "know thyself," is the foundation of all wisdom; however I don’t agree that you are being completely honest with your assessment of human beings in general. Where you see nobility of man, I see an aberration of the human condition. There is nothing inherently noble about man. The term is nothing more than a safety net and a good guy badge to pat himself on the back for what he sees as great accomplishments in himself in regards to his environment.
Man is, quite simply, a definitively evil creature, having invented and perfect the concept since he first picked up a stick and ushered in society, religion and politics by force of a tool.

At his core, Man is a trinity of three base truths: selfishness, fearfulness, and manipulative. These traits are the only traits he is born with, and serve him quite well in a savage world ... but with community and society, he has learned other traits, some more advantageous than others.

While this assessment may sound bleak for a ‘self image’ of Man, one must keep in mind that such traits as love, compassion and understanding, though only supplemental to his nature, are not impossible for him to achieve, but involve a conscious decision to override his baser personality. Unfortunately, because of variables to selfish and/or fearful natures, and to some degree, his past experiences and the expectations of his given society, this is hardly a common act, and becomes increasingly less common the wider the scope of his manipulations of his environment becomes.

To put it simply, people suck.

I submit that no outside savior is required of mankind, except for himself, if we can make the effort, each and every one of us, one at a time. We can overcome our base instincts, but it’s a difficult thing to face, and most folks would rather look the other way and feed their own selfish egos. Honesty may get lip service as the best policy, but when it comes to critical self analysis, we all fall a little short there.

It must occur on a personal basis, the usage of honesty, and not as a part of some adopted credo. Religion is really nothing more than socio-political control, and has been since its first conception ... with an emphasis on manipulation of personal will and belief upon others rather than an honest creed to live by in practice, especially concerning Judaism, Muslimism, Christianity and more recently, Scientific Theory and Humanism. While none of these philosophies are wrong, in and of themselves, the usage of such credos to further ideals, such as, say, the genocide/forced extinction of an entire species, seems like a skewing of the original tenants of any of them to me.

Homo Christus could not live along side Homo Sapien no more than Neanderthals could among modern men ... disregarding the Flintstones and Gieco commercials, of course ... Simply because of our current natures ... now, if a widespread elevation of consciousness and honest self analysis occurred, which is possible, while improbable, then perhaps it could work out.

I am very intrigued by the implications of your research, your philosophies and ideals, Rudloph-X, and only hope to understand. While my views clearly differ from yours on a few points, as I understand or misunderstand them, I would hope that this does not hinder further communication or clarification in any way, as I am very much looking foreword to this discussion and the evolution of this thread.

Are we Christed beings? We could be. We may have the power as Christ did,
but we will not be able to unleash it. We have too much on our hands to be able
to control such powers. We have work, the media, wars and many different
aspects which control our emotions. Hence we have religions to teach us to
love one another, and not to fall into darkness.
People say that Ascension to the next dimension will give us time to harness
these powers. Some people say that this world is a school to teach us between
good and evil. Once we graduate, then we move to a higher dimension.

Really though, who knows? It is in Gods hands and that is where it will be,
for one day we shall meet with him and understand about this world.

While it does seem likely man has perhaps reached an evolutionary apex when one takes into account his brain size/brain speed ratio, it seems to be more an ethical question as to whether or not we should use technology to further advance into the arena of trans-humanism. On one hand, this seems to be the only way to eliminate the base traits of humanity that plague our existence, such as selfishness, fear, hate, etc.; but on the other hand who will be allowed to benefit from such a step? It might be nice to think we all would, but I don’t see that happening, as such a generous nature is completely unrealistic when one considers the source of such benefits, Homo Sapien himself.

If this capability was within our reach today, or even within 100 years from now, surely man will not be so enlightened as to share such gifts with all his brethren. There will be ‘haves’ and ‘have-nots’, as there always have been throughout our history. Even if these trans-humans are enlightened and benevolent, the ‘have-nots’, which could either not afford such advancement or in some other way not qualify for such advancement, would surely act out of jealousy and greed. As I said before, Homo Sapien and Homo Christus/Superior simply may not be able to coexist harmoniously. I can’t see any utopian existence arising from such a step; only a wider social/economic/racial/political gap that would exist causing more conflict. It’s not that I don’t have faith in the next step, so much; rather, I have little faith in our current form to accept such a step in the first place.