Papoose Lake- Setting the record straight!

Originally posted by Lexion
Tim said that was the craft they DESCRIBED, not a picture of the actual craft.

And that's exactly what I called it.

And, nice link. You selling books for Amazon, now ?

No, but it's the easiest way to reference a book.

After 60 years, I still think the gov. is holding out on what actually happened at Roswell.
Alien ? Mogul ?
I honestly don't know, but I'd sure like to.

No, you don't. You already said what you want:

I WANT there to be recovered craft.
I WANT there to be back-engineering (sp) going on !!

'nuff said.

Regards
yf

Originally posted by Canada_EH
I like how the book linked has the already proven fake pic of the alien on it.

That's why it's on the cover .

On another note with little less sarcasim. You could write up the little bit of text that proves your point or sumerize key points.

And have you picking about what I didn't say in my summary? No way! But to give you something, this page summarizes one of the central points of the book. However, the greater part of the book is about analyzing the stories and background of the many alleged "witnesses" (many of which actually weren't!) to the event. Briefly said, it tears the pro-UFO "evidence" completely apart.

If you cared about defending your post don't link a book and expect us to go out and buy it just on your so say.

Actually, I don't care, and don't expect anything. Would I walk into a church full of fundamentalist believers trying to "defend" atheism? Of course not! So, would I go to ATS trying to "defend" rational analysis of available evidence? I guess you know the answer !

I gave you leads to non-sensationalist sources on the "Roswell" topic. That's all I can do. If you (like others here) want to believe in crashed saucers, feel free to do so. I'm not on a mission here D.

Regards
yf

Originally posted by yfxxx
No, you don't. You already said what you want:

I WANT there to be recovered craft.
I WANT there to be back-engineering (sp) going on !!

'nuff said.

Regards
yf

Thank you yfxxx,

Your on the attack today! Just because someone wants something to be true, doesn't make it so. Your trying to twist Lex's words so you can throw them at him.

When I first started I wanted S-4 to be real too. However, Years of intesnse research both on ATS and on my own have lead to to the conclusion that it is NOT! I'm a researcher, not a Debunker. However, I can't sit back and let the myths fly just becasue I wish there was something there.

Tim

Originally posted by Ghost01
I'm a researcher, not a Debunker.

Fine. I never said otherwise . But doing good research is not easy, if you already have a preferred outcome of your research (in fact, many, many reseachers, who should have known better, have fallen for this trap in all areas of science). And if your preference is so strong, that you have to state it with "WANT" in all capitals and double exclamation marks, good research becomes impossible.

Probably most researchers, being human, have a more or less preferred result for their work. But for sound and credible research one must try to forget this "desired result" as good as possible. And shouting it loudly all over the place will not help in doing so.

Regards
yf

Originally posted by yfxxx
And if your preference is so strong, that you have to state it with "WANT" in all capitals and double exclamation marks, good research becomes impossible.

In some cases that can be very true!

However, sometimes in research we focus on the idea oppisite proof. The concept being that you start out with the goal of Proving one thing, but wind up with evidence that leeds you to the OPPISITE of what you want to prove.

S-4 only exists based on Bob Lazar and John Lear. No matter what I've done, I can't find a single peice of evidence or an eye witness that isn't tied to one of these two men. If you take these two men out of the S-4 story, there is no story. The other problem is they aren't independant witnesses. John even freely admits Bob is a friend of his.

Can you give me anything to work with besides Bob, John, or someone saying: I believe what I've heard from one of the above people?

I don't care if it's a dark, grainy photo that appears to show an open hanger in the mountain over looking the lake bed, or even Proof of a Restricted Area enclosing Papoose Lake besides the general Nevada Test Site.

Tim

[edit on 3/14/2007 by Ghost01]

Originally posted by Ghost01

This is a whole Website full of proof:
Papoose Lake

Although both pros and cons of an alleged S4 are discussed here this site is biased and does not even pretend to be unbiased! The author clearly says that he doesn't believe S4 exists and claims Lazar is a fraud!

Originally posted by Ghost01
I aslo found this map shwing that Papoose in no different from any other streach of desert in the Nevada Test Site:

Wrong! Papoose Lake is a dry lake bed surrounded by hills!

Originally posted by Ghost01
If Papoose had a secret facility, it shouldn't be open to Anyone who can enter the Nevada Test Site.

Absolutely wrong! A secret base is exactly that...a secret base! Dulce is also a secret base and is underground! People can walk around or directly over it and would not notice any clues what-so-ever!

Originally posted by Ghost01
In the Security Manual for Nellis Range (common Refered to as the Cammo Dude Manual, there is NO refrence to a secure area around Papoose Lake, or a Code Name for the area. If the area had anything even REMOTELY Secret, the security personnel for Nellis range should be aware of it.

Again you seem to be missing the most critical point of all! A secret base is a secret base with no clues what-so-ever! What would be the purpose of listing S4 in a Security Manual if they didn't want anyone(including the Cammo Dudes) to know about it S4 probably has it's own security but rarely uses it!

Originally posted by Ghost01
Here's A quote from UFOMind.com:

One of the more imaginative protest groups was Greenpeace. Not content to simply step across the line near the Mercury entrance, they organized and pulled off forays deep into the NTS. For one of these excursions, they decided to send a small party into the NTS on a multi-day trip from the east side, to come in the back way, so to speak. The group left from the National Desert Wildlife Range and proceeded northwest to the Test Site. In doing so, they crossed Papoose Lake itself. They came across no heavy security, and saw no secret saucer bases. There was nothing there

Off course they didn't see any security! Off course they saw no secret saucer base! It is built inside the hill and the doors are camoflagued with a sand texture and tilted to fit the terrain!!!

Originally posted by Ghost01
The area around the Papoose Lake lack access roads! This would make it tougher for security to intercept someone trying to penetrate the area. Are you Aware that if you look at a map, Papoose in sitting in the middle of the Desert National Wildlife Range? With wild animals constanatly passing throught the area, any security sensors (if they existed) would be constantly set of by chyotoes and other desert animals wandering through the area.

According to Lazar there are several dirt roads that lead to this facility! There must be some type of security sensors or small hidden cameras at some hard-to-find places! I have no clue where they are nor what type they are but common sense says there must be some somewhere! And no I don't think any audible alarms will go off if someone happens to get caught. They probably don't care if anyone is trespassing outside since the facility is "inside" with no access to outsiders!

I imagine the only time they would be concerned would be during ufo testing and/or landings and departures! If you happen to be there at the wrong time(I imagine early morning hours) you probably won't live to tell about it or at the very least you would be taken inside and brainwashed to forget about any unusual experiences!

[edit on 20-3-2007 by SocialistAgenda]

Originally posted by Ghost01
Next, there's you old Friend Bob Lazar:

Educatuion Background- Where is his proof tha he ever went to college?

I know government conspiracy! However, why didn't he keep a copy of his College Degree? Surely Bob had a copy of his own. Why hasn't he ever shown it to anyone?

Then there is Caltech degree in "Electronic Technology", a degree which the school doesn't offer.

What was his Master's Theisis about? doesn't he have a copy of it?

Dose he have any graduation Photos? How did he Major in a Program the school doesn't even have?

Then there's the time Bob got Arrested at Area 51 or S-4 (not sure which). He was up there with friends watching a secret test. Why did they Arrest him and then let him go? Surely, if he was in violation of security rules, and they knew him. They could have Easily Put him in jail just for Being There!

Why didn't they?

Here you are, I leave you to answer these question. Maybe they will shead some light in this mystery!

Tim

I agree with some of the points you are trying to make and I often ask myself the same questions, however, if the American government is not capable of distorting one's credentials, history, and educational background then I guess no one is!

All paper traces, including diplomas, degrees, ID's, birth certificates, driver licenses, etc can easily be confisticated and destroyed if the government chooses to do so! Sure he could have made copies but he probably did not expect such aggressive discrediting tactics nor does one plan on becoming an "enemy of the state" beforehand! Besides, if they threatened him with his life and the life of his family and friends he probably would have turned in everything on his own free will, rather than face a Phil Schneider-style-execution! Under those circumstances, I probably would have done the same! Phil Schneider got executed because he refused to keep his mouth shut!

By the way, have you done any research on MKULTRA and other declassified CIA projects? Take a look...its certainly worthwhile and will give you some insight into what the American government is capable of! I surely would not want to be classified "an enemy of the state" They easily could have manipulated his mind(much like hypnosis experts do) so that he would become confused with disinformation and made to look like a complete fool! I have little doubt this can happen if need-be!

The only theory that tends to discredit him is that no one has any photos of him in any high school or college yearbook! This does seem rather odd at first however people tend to forget the intimidation factor! If I knew him from high school or college and knew that the government was after him I would probably not show my face nor claim to know him! We all care about self-preservation and that is what skeptics forget when they constantly ask for proof/evidence to any far-fetched "stories"!


1+1=2
Where there is smoke there is usually a fire!
Disclosure= Disc low sure

[edit on 20-3-2007 by SocialistAgenda]

Originally posted by yfxxx
Actually, I don't care, and don't expect anything. Would I walk into a church full of fundamentalist believers trying to "defend" atheism? Of course not! So, would I go to ATS trying to "defend" rational analysis of available evidence? I guess you know the answer

!

I gave you leads to non-sensationalist sources on the "Roswell" topic. That's all I can do. If you (like others here) want to believe in crashed saucers, feel free to do so. I'm not on a mission here D.

What exactly do you believe in? It seems the only reason you are here is to defend "your" government!

Frankly, I am getting tired of people like you! If you don't want to believe in any conspiracy theory then find a mainstream site where people will be more appreciative of your mainstream input!

Most of us here detest your kind

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
What exactly do you believe in? It seems the only reason you are here is to defend "your" government!

"My" government is completely irrelevant when talking about any conspiracy theory based on alleged places or events in the U.S. of A.! Unlikely as it may seem, there are people on this forum who are neither American nor extraterrestrial
.

Frankly, I am getting tired of people like you!

Tough! I think, I'll stay a little longer ...

If you don't want to believe in any conspiracy theory then find a mainstream site where people will be more appreciative of your mainstream input!

Again the argument of fundamentalism - "If you don't believe, go away!". I've re-read the ATS FAQs, and it says nowhere that this forum is limited to "believers". And I certainly didn't come here to be "appreciated" by people with, let's say, a somewhat limited talent for critical thinking (a.k.a. "the gullible").

Most of us here detest your kind

Oh, really? "Most"? Do you have any poll results?
Anyway, even if it is true - and it may well be - that "most" ATS members detest (rather string word, isn't it?) my "kind"(*), I don't give a ... well, you know what !

(*)Whatever that is supposed to mean. If it stands for "those, who do not eagerly and without question gobble up every far-fetched, unsubstantiated and highly implausible tale", then I say thank you for the compliment!


Regards
yf

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda

Originally posted by Ghost01
I aslo found this map shwing that Papoose in no different from any other streach of desert in the Nevada Test Site:

Wrong! Papoose Lake is a dry lake bed surrounded by hills!

That's NOT what I Meant, and you know it! Papoose Lake isn't protected by a special security parameter.

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
Absolutely wrong! A secret base is exactly that...a secret base! Dulce is also a secret base and is underground! People can walk around or directly over it and would not notice any clues what-so-ever

Good! Would you care to speculate why Groom Lake is inside R-4808N?

Groom Lake is a Real of a Top Secret military base. That's why the base doesn't appear on public maps. The base has a security parameter to keep people away.

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
Again you seem to be missing the most critical point of all! A secret base is a secret base with no clues what-so-ever! What would be the purpose of listing S4 in a Security Manual if they didn't want anyone(including the Cammo Dudes) to know about it

S4 probably has it's own security but rarely uses it!

Please reread the above section!


I'll leave it at that for now!

Tim

Originally posted by yfxxx

Originally posted by Ghost01
I'm a researcher, not a Debunker.

And if your preference is so strong, that you have to state it with "WANT" in all capitals and double exclamation marks, good research becomes impossible.

For the Record Lexion made the "I WANT" statements, not me! I was replying to the statement in defense of a friend. Please keep your quotes straight!

Tim

Originally posted by Ghost01
For the Record Lexion made the "I WANT" statements, not me! I was replying to the statement in defense of a friend. Please keep your quotes straight!

I know that you didn't say "I WANT ...", and it was never my intention to imply otherwise. In the context, I meant "if you say ..." is a generic reference as in "if one says ...", but I admit it could easily be understood differently. I'm sorry for the confusion!

Regards
yf

yfxxx,

I think I misunderstood the point you were making! Thanks for the correction. No hard feelings!

Tim

Originally posted by yfxxx
Tough!

I think, I'll stay a little longer ...

And continue argueing nonsense? So again I ask the same question I asked last time but didn't get a straight answer: If you don't believe or at least consider it possible that "weird" things are going on in underground bases in USA and elsewhere what is your purpose in this forumn

Nevermind what I think; give me a straight answer this time!

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
And continue argueing nonsense? So again I ask the same question I asked last time but didn't get a straight answer: If you don't believe or at least consider it possible that "weird" things are going on in underground bases in USA and elsewhere what is your purpose in this forumn

Nevermind what I think; give me a straight answer this time!

I don't have a purpose here, I do it primarily for my own entertainment .

Anyway, the straight answer you asked for:

I'm posting in this forum, because I think a skeptical point of view is needed as a counterbalance to the many "hard believers" here.


I don't want to convert any "true believers". But those who don't want to believe all the extraordinary claims (about vast underground bases etc.) at face value deserve a "reality check" from time to time. E.g., there are very plausible arguments against "vast underground bases with aliens in them", not the least of which is the total lack of hard evidence, and I feel free to point this out.

If you seek company of only true believers, join a religion but not a discussion(!) forum.

Regards
yf


[edit on 22.3.2007 by yfxxx]

Originally posted by Ghost01

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda

Originally posted by Ghost01
I aslo found this map shwing that Papoose in no different from any other streach of desert in the Nevada Test Site:

Wrong! Papoose Lake is a dry lake bed surrounded by hills!

That's NOT what I Meant, and you know it! Papoose Lake isn't protected by a special security parameter.

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
Absolutely wrong! A secret base is exactly that...a secret base! Dulce is also a secret base and is underground! People can walk around or directly over it and would not notice any clues what-so-ever

Good! Would you care to speculate why Groom Lake is inside R-4808N?

Groom Lake is a Real of a Top Secret military base. That's why the base doesn't appear on public maps. The base has a security parameter to keep people away.

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
Again you seem to be missing the most critical point of all! A secret base is a secret base with no clues what-so-ever! What would be the purpose of listing S4 in a Security Manual if they didn't want anyone(including the Cammo Dudes) to know about it

S4 probably has it's own security but rarely uses it!

Please reread the above section!


I'll leave it at that for now!

Tim

With incredibly dull-witted "researchers" like you and Stanton Friedman no wonder we never learn anything worthwhile!!!!

Originally posted by yfxxx

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
And continue argueing nonsense? So again I ask the same question I asked last time but didn't get a straight answer: If you don't believe or at least consider it possible that "weird" things are going on in underground bases in USA and elsewhere what is your purpose in this forumn

Nevermind what I think; give me a straight answer this time!

I don't have a purpose here, I do it primarily for my own entertainment

.

Anyway, the straight answer you asked for:

I'm posting in this forum, because I think a skeptical point of view is needed as a counterbalance to the many "hard believers" here.


I don't want to convert any "true believers". But those who don't want to believe all the extraordinary claims (about vast underground bases etc.) at face value deserve a "reality check" from time to time. E.g., there are very plausible arguments against "vast underground bases with aliens in them", not the least of which is the total lack of hard evidence, and I feel free to point this out.

If you seek company of only true believers, join a religion but not a discussion(!) forum.

Regards
yf


[edit on 22.3.2007 by yfxxx]

If I were to say "enjoy your stay" I would be lying to you! Your not welcome by me, but since ATS calls the shots I have no say and will leave it at that!

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
If I were to say "enjoy your stay" I would be lying to you! Your not welcome by me, ...

You know what? I don't give a damn!

Regards
yf

DOUBLE POST!

See Below

[edit on 3/22/2007 by Ghost01]

Originally posted by SocialistAgenda
If I were to say "enjoy your stay" I would be lying to you! Your not welcome by me, but since ATS calls the shots I have no say and will leave it at that!

Gee, I was Just thinking the same about YOU!

When I post my Research and sorces you TRASH them! Then you have the balls to gripe in the same breath that I Don't do any research.

NEWS FLASH: The truth isn't Always what you wish it was, but that doesn't make it any less True!

Tim