Do only the Ignorant and Gullible believe Holocaust Denial Propaganda?

It is interesting, especially if much of it is new to you. You could spend a lot of time researching this and go off in many different directions.

When reading Revelations, one thing maybe worth remembering in the context of researching, It doesn't really matter if you believe what is written in Revelations, what does matter is if you think the people who are influencing much of what is going on, from behind the scenes, do they believe it???
Anyhow, Revelations is an interesting read in itself.
Talking about Israel, Zionism and so on, could jews have been saved by Zionists in WW2 if zionists hadn't intervened with the demand of going to Israel or no deal, you already know about that. Anyhow it seems clear that you feel the Zionists may have been lying to the world about some issues. You have probable heard them claim that they are Gods own chosen people, and it is widely believed that Abraham was the father of the Jews. However the Bible itself tells us that Abraham was in fact a Babylonian and that Gods own chosen people is every human on the planet who accepts his word.
BTW, I should point out that I am not what you would call a religous man, and my reading of the Bible was along time ago (I wouldn't be ashamed to be a religous man or wouldn't hide reading the bible, just want to clear up that my quoting the Bible isn't in any way trying to spread Gods word, just researching what is written and what different people believe).

There is a guy who you might find interesting, not directly related to the subject you are studying now, but still his work can all help to put parts of the jogsaw together. Have you read Texe Marrs or seen any of his documentaries. I myself haven't seen alot of his clips, and this subject isn't so new to me, but I have watched thru some sections of his videos, you need a certain amount of patience, but they are interesing and he did mention Revelations alot - in relation to NASA and government programmes, as I said I didn't watch all of it, but it is interesting how Revelations appears to be a very important book to some people. I would ask you have you read or seen much about Bohemian Grove, I am sure you have heard of it, have you seen what goes on there. I am not saying it is related, but I suspect it would all be interesting to you. You probably would be interested in Texe Marrs, he has a few videos if you search them on google video, and they are probably all interesting in their own way. Texe Marrs seems like a likeable but maybe slighty odd fellow, but it isn't anything about the messanger and all about the message, don't you agree?
Someone titled this video "The Hidden Elite of Israel, America and their Quest for Global Domination", so you see if that title is even slightly accurate then it will be very interesting to you.

video.google.com...

If you do watch his documentary, let me know your thoughts on it. And as I have said I haven't watched all, I am merely suggesting you might be interesting in his work. Of course he is just one that came to mind, there are more. Anyhow you have enough to read at present, let me know your progress, and in the near future the situation might reverse and you will be pointing me in a certain direction!!!
Regards

This is a short clip, about 25 mins, which is related to this thread and the subject you are studying. I mentioned the jesuits earlier. Do you know about the Black Pope, I will assume you do, some of this clip is interesting. If you know anything about the History of the Roman Catholic Church you will know that there is much hypocrisy there (to put it very mildly).

video.google.com...

ps, i watched the Texe Marrs docu again which I posted earlier, I would definitely recommend it to you, it is worth watching and is very relevant to what you are researching, I am sure you will realise why.

[edit on 2-4-2007 by golddragnet]

There are evience to prove the death camps were true. There is also photo evidence to substantiate it, in this link
(viewer discretion is advised) it shows the dead Jews in Auschwitz.

Its possible that the photo's there were actually Typhus Victims as it is well known that it was in plague proportions. Its also possible that the gas chambers were actually used to gas the dead bodies to prevent the spread of infectious diseases.

Golddragnet - thanks for the links. Its the Easter hols and I've a little person under foot, so my time is not my own. I'm working my way through the info but it could take some time. Still on the Ashkenazi, totally out of my realm of knowledge - excellent pointer. I've had a quick look at the clips - good choices, they balance each other. As you say it is not what I believe but understanding what others do.
All the best.

Originally posted by LEO006
There are evience to prove the death camps were true.

LEO006, I don 't see 6 million dead on the picture you posted. Do you?

maybe you should read the thread before posting next time...


[edit on 3/4/07 by ConspiracyNut23]

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout
Golddragnet - thanks for the links.

This is the Texe Marrs clip I was looking for earlier, this one is about NASA and the book of Revelations gets mentioned alot. He suggests Revelations is a very significant book to those who are manipulating certain events. The previous clip of his I posted was related to Israel, so they should both be interesting to you. This clip is off-topic to where you are at, at this time, but it might still be interesting to you.

video.google.com...

[edit on 4-4-2007 by golddragnet]

Thanks for the clips Golddragnet, Texe Marrs seems awfully amused by what he has to say, he's watchable though, amiable...I didn't last too far through the second one, got the jist though. The Nazi/Catholic one was very interesting and made me realise the significance of the Holy Roman Empire - I can't beleive I hadn't made that connection - duh!

The Vatican aside, also explains the reason why Germany was so reluctant to engage Britain in conflict, what with the family ties and all. A lot of things are starting to make a bit more sense. I was looking too late at European history- you made me realise that with the Ashkenazi Jews. Never much help relying only on the abridged histories!

It is apparent that the promotion of conflict and difference is paramount in some minds. Macheivellian, internecine, ideological elements exist. It is fascinating how things just start to fall into place and the patterns start to form. Ideological and economic control of populaces, trade agreements and the economic exploitation of natural resources and raw materials are still the goal, but gone is the notion of direct rule.

Belief systems play a significant part, we all seek to believe in something. It can produce unity and seperateness, commonality and exploit natural xenophobia. Whatever is necessary for the circumstances. Secular, alternative belief systems or anti-belief systems to fill any void. Narcotics service the same need.

Symbology is interesting and is used by Texe Marr in both films to demonstrate his point. The success of the spread of Catholicism was not only due to might but by the absorbtion of the emblems and mystical places of the local traditional beliefs. In western Europe where springs were deemed mystical in the middle-ages the Church would be planted, Lourdes is a famous example. Familiar symbols and connection, aids the transistion. A more contemporary example would be Pope John Paul II saying that animals go to heaven. Innocuous enough until applied to the absorbtion logic.

Capitalism is all about conversion. Its the whole reason for marketing. Beliefs that encourage consumerism win out. Ascetic belief structures become marginalised as.

To get back more directly to the thread.

One of the best books on the subject, is one of the first to be written, The Scourge of the Nazis, by Lord Russell of Liverpool. In the introduction he writes,

"..suppression of free speech including freedom of the press, the control of the judicary, the confiscation of property, the restrictions on the right of peaceful assembly, the censorship of letters...monitoring of telephone conversations..regimentation of labour...denial from religious freedom...the german people did not yeild easily....had they done so there would have been no SS, no SD and no Gestapo. It was only by fear, torture, starvation and death that the Nazis eliminated at home the opponents of their regime."

This is where I've always seen a contradiction or convenient omission in the revisionist argument. The Nuremberg Laws weren't cobbled together until 1935, less than two years after the nazis had come to power. The strong-arm SA killed off in the night of the long knives. Eugenics. Tiergartenstrasse 4, this is what they did to the german people, let alone what they did to those 'other' than themselves.

I'm increasingly struck by what seemed to be conflcting elements and how these translate to the present.

Its starting to make a lot more sense. Much seems to be the ends justifying the means. Slavery is important for any expansion of empire, old world style, in new world order the capitalists take off more than the 'host' nation gets.

Originally posted by golddragnet

I didn't like the title of this thread, but after reading a few of your posts I think I correctly guessed that it was the causes and effects of the holocaust you were as interested in more than questioning whether it really happened or not.

In retrospect I don’t like the title of the thread! I realise that I was being ignorant and I can only repair that by ensuring that I learn from my mistake. I need to temper myself, so I have taken my time in addressing your points. You will see I have little to offer at this stage. Caution being my new by-word, i got a little too over-excited and started skipping over things. Additionally I have no interest in creating offence or raising emotions.

There are certain things we won't know for sure, we will have to research the evidence and try to draw our own conclusions.

It has become highly involved for me. I am finding that I have to review more of what I thought I knew than I ever expected. By going further back in history we can get a clearer picture of its evolution.. There is a need for me to be cautious, to not get carried away and be rash in my judgements. Conclusions are making themselves and I am attempting to apply them hypothetically from history to present. Some things pass to the way-side others stand the test.

About Eichmann, you may already know that the CIA knew his wherabouts long before he was caught?.

Again I am trying not to make leaps. Hans Globke and the connection to the CIA offer very important clues to the issues surrounding the holocaust. The rise of Nazism has always held contradictions for me. By taking it back to the Holy Roman Empire I can see a pattern, go further back and we see a definite trend. This is then reflected in the events in the run-up to the closure of WWII. Motivationally I am struggling to understand it, that there are separate (though potentially symbiotic) spheres is without question.

Why Israel??? All the leaders of the state of Israel are Ashkenazi jews, the original homeland of ashkenazi jews is not Palestine or present day Israel. Obviously they are aware of this. So if their historical homeland isn't Israel, then why do they want to control Israel. Maybe you know their history, but it does raise further questions. What can it be all about and who is orchestrating it?

Well put. I can understand the desire for certain Jews to possess state, but why Israel, why not as you point out the Rhineland. Ashekenazi history offers some insights to the application of racial policy, slavery and selection.

There are those who say much of the answers lie in the Book Of Revelations!!! Might sound crazy but see where it all leads to, and maybe you will also read about the Jesuits on the way, their name will most likely be mentioned in some context or other.

Now this is where I really flounder. This is very hard for me to conceptualise as it requires me to suspend my own beliefs. I can accept that there are people who view the bible as the word of god and that this belief can be used to exert control. Where I struggle is in whether those that exact the control believe it is the word of god. Does that make sense? I’m working on this one. What totally woke me up is the significance of Turkey. I’d seen it strategically but not ideologically (although I learning that the two are often the same thing)

Presumably you already know that Hitler greatly admired the Jesuits, and he wanted to model his Nazi parties organisation on the organisation the Jesuits had. I am sure you have already asked yourself what relationship Nazi Germany had with the Vatican and why it was spared during WW2.

I’m much clearer with this side of things. The Western Roman Empire the first Reich, the Holy Roman Empire the second and then the Third Reich. I hadn’t comprehended the modern ‘marriage’ of the two factions. I’d seen them as co-dependents not as a continuation of an old alliance.

As you can see, I am very much a work in progress. I’m applying a systematic approach and taking stock. You raise the issue of Bohemia Grove among other things in a later post. I’ve read quite a lot about this over the past few years and I have a renewed wariness of what is and isn't the influence of propaganda. I am starting from the bottom and working my way up. In an earlier post I advised someone to start with the assassination of Franz Ferdinand – chastised by my own folly, I’m currently finding answers in the Reformation. Not necessarily when it all started but certainly the manifestation of a new player to the game.

All the best

Originally posted by LEO006
(viewer discretion is advised) it shows the dead Jews in Auschwitz.

How ignorant are you really?

A picure taken in Belsen of tyfus victims proves the existence of Death Camps. Yep. How could I have been so stupid... It was this simple all along!

Golddragnet

This has taken me in an unexpected direction. I have many questions that I seek to answer and I journey slowly forward from the beginning.

From where I now stand the 20th century is a long way in the distance, I realise that I have very much more to learn before I am able to again comment on this thread. My opinion as to what occurred in Nazi germany has not changed. It happened, but the reasons to why it happened have, in my mind, shifted radically. I need to pursue the answers to my questions.

I have made a major leap and with that I can stand in the shoes of others. I have struggled with this, but I now have the perspective that I require. As a job is not worth doing, unless you do it well, I intend to skip nothing in my reappraisal. Thanks for your help in focusing my attention on these issues. All the best.

I'd like to bring up the massacre at Troy back in the year -10 000, I think that anyone who says it didn't happen should actually be put in a jail and any kind of retrospective law we can conjur up be applied to the truth seeker...I mean criminal...I mean Ant-Semite..I mean..well you know what I mean

And do not forget the massacres done under communist regimes:

The introduction, by editor Stéphane Courtois, maintains that "...Communist regimes...turned mass crime into a full-blown system of government". Using unofficial estimates he cites a death toll which totals 94 million. The breakdown of the number of deaths given in the Black Book is as follows: 20 million in the Soviet Union, 65 million in the People's Republic of China, 1 million in Vietnam, 2 million in North Korea, 2 million in Cambodia, 1 million in the Communist states of Eastern Europe, 150,000 in Latin America, 1.7 million in Africa, 1.5 million in Afghanistan and 10,000 deaths "resulting from actions of the international communist movement and communist parties not in power" The authors explicitly claim that Communist regimes are responsible for a greater number of deaths than any other political ideal or movement, including fascism.

Taken from Wikipedia::Black Book of Communism

Silence all deniers by jailing them, and start giving money to the families of those 94 million victims!!!

Insane? So why is the Holocaust any different? Because the victims where Jewish?

Originally posted by KilgoreTrout The rise of Nazism has always held contradictions for me. By taking it back to the Holy Roman Empire I can see a pattern, go further back and we see a definite trend. This is then reflected in the events in the run-up to the closure of WWII. Motivationally I am struggling to understand it,

One thing that we can all suspect, without doing any kind of research is that people who commit real evil and inflict terrible suffering on others, especially on a large scale, are not religious in the sense that we know it, they don't follow the word of Jesus, "love your neighbours as yourself, turn the other cheek", etc, etc. Regardless of what their background is or what religion they are supposed to follow, if they commit real evil they don't follow God, it is a charade if they claim they are religous, or even worse, if they claim their evil acts are on religous grounds. The guys who willingly make wars are obviously not religious. GW Bush & Blair both claimed that God was advising them to go War in Iraq, obviously a disgusting ridiculous hypocritical lie. The people who willingly want war, if they don't follow God, could they be following the word of someone else??? Are they Satanists??? Maybe they believe that Satan or Lucifer is the true God!
Do you think the leaders of the RC Church at the time of the Inquistion followed the word of God??? Or were they following someone elses word. Or to take this thread, what about the Nazi leaders, Hitler claimed to admire the Jesuits greatly, but his actions were certainly not those of a man who followed the word of Jesus.

I am not going to make any claims, and I don't claim to have any answers, I am just pointing in a certain direction that you may or may not find interesting, it is for you to decide where you want to research.
But you ask about motivation, well if they were following the word of Satan would it be a motive???
Have you heard of Thule??? Were Hitler and the Nazis Satanists, Occultists???
www.threeworldwars.com...

Have you studied Skull & Bones, GW Bush and Kerry are both members. Are Skull & Bones satanists???, the title should be a clue and their symbol is inspired by Nazi Germany. What is Bohemian Grove all about? Certainly not about following Jesus. Is it about following somone else? if so who could it be???

The clip I posted earlier on the Jesuits is quite interesting.
Here is a clip from a guy who used to be a Freemason (you probably already know that symbols and geometry is significant to freemasons!), he is very interesting and amusing, and again it is about the message rather than the messanger, worth watching through. On the mention of freemasons, are you aware that masonic symbols are on the american dollar and are in many prominent places.

skip the first 2 mins intro
video.google.com...

[edit on 10-4-2007 by golddragnet]

Now you’ll have to bear with me, it may not seem it but I am still within thread here but this goes round the houses a bit.

Golddragnet you quite rightly state that it doesn’t require any real thought to see that these people are not religious or godly.

The Reformation is interesting for the Epistle Dedicatories which accompany each translation. Genesis itself can be seen as a series of Epistle Dedicatories. Genesis could lead us to believe that ‘revisions’ of the Torah/Bible/Quran have been used to excuse the few and gain the obedience of the many. The Protestant Work Ethic, creates a willing, uncomplaining work force and a middle-class who supports them - slavery even becomes excusable to ‘spread the faith’, justified by “the Curse of Ham”. Did Luther or Calvin foresee such an implementation of their calls for reform in the Church or were they simply the tools of control?

It is easier to see what something has become and forget why it was created and vice versa. The Catholics had a counter- reformation and set forth change – is it possibly that Ignatius’ mysticism renewed the fervour and allowed the Church to retain its place? Education became the new frontier in spreading spirituality. The more people who knew the Bible could be drawn into the Esoteric and Gnostic traditions that can so easily be manipulated to mean devil worship.

Did Hitler admire them for their fervour and mysticism, or for their spiritual struggle and ascetism? Hitler was a simple man, he favoured austerity. Did he hate jews or was he educated to do so? He was imprisoned with Eckhart introduced by him to Rosenberg. The Thule Society, the draw of mysticism, though Hitler was never a member, did gain him membership to the GWP. Gottfried Feder certainly disliked jews. He also hated capitalists or specifically Jewish financiers who prevented, in his belief his own success. Dieter Ekhart’s father was a royal notary. Alfred Rosenberg, from a family of wealthy merchants, supported the counter-revolutionists (White Army) in 1917 Russia. He acclaimed Hitler as a messiah - a volkischer hero, just as all messiahs have been. The man from the wood/field etc. Dictator/Cincinnatus. “My Struggle”.

Was Hitler the secret grand-son of the Rothschilds/Frankenburger? Would this have confirmed his belief in himself as a saviour/anti-christ or could it have been used to control him through blackmail with Feder as threat and illustration?

I doubt the absolute truth of it simply by the fact that it was Hans Frank who it is said, discovered this information. He made the statements close to his execution, which renders them questionable, the lack of evidence to support his claims can be interpreted four ways – it was destroyed, nobodies looked hard enough yet, its not true or its not a whole truth. The Nuremberg Trials offer some insight.

IF the Rothschilds were in on the whole thing they would probably be able to endorse some proof, it could have been very convincing to Hitler, or adversely it could have been used to blackmail the Rothschilds, which raises other possibilities.

The working class revolt (out of the wood/field), influenced by the intelligentsia (the enlightened), faith needs to be restored. I have found great ‘truth’ in Genesis (especially when compared to the Legend of Gilgamesh and the “last tablet”). The man who came out of the field, - the working man. Socialism in this pure expression threatens those that ‘have’. Control socialism and the status quo remains the same. As loathsome as all this is, it is genius.

The Black Pope, SS, Skull and Bones….instinct tells us that these are not godly people, if they are not godly are they satanists? It can be opined that the opposite of god is the worship of the physical world or materialism. Based on this interpretation yes they worship satan.

The symbol of death (Spanish), used to invoke fear or to draw the ‘anti-christians’ to the fold. The Skull and Bones remains what it has always meant in modernity – Pirates or more distinctly Privateers! The SS could actually be described as mercenaries. Hans Frank testified to directing funds for the SS to build industrial units for textile manufacture. These units were for the manufacture and processing of textiles, metal works etc – consumables. These units were supplied via deportation with slave labour. They were owned by private businesses, not state owned. The SS their private army. No matter which nation won the war, the Privateers won.

The Catholics who operated under this emblem were the same. Freelancers if you will, protecting their own interests and those of their friends.

I’ve sweated over this, but these are my opinions. I’ve compared and contrasted and all that guff, but all I have here is circumstantial evidence - it is open to debate.

Ignorance and gullibility - I have denounced myself!!!


[edit on 13-4-2007 by KilgoreTrout]

you are making headway ploughing through much of the information. You can see that in a relatively short time you can learn so much, and it seems you have broadened your mind about the information we get from the media, mainstream books etc. It is a shame that all people don't spend more time learning the truth of how the world is run, and what kind of individuals are running it, what are their motives etc, instead of spending endless hours watching dreadful tv shows and reading tabloid newspapers that tell them lies all the time.

You are correct to say that the SS were really a private army, legalised bullies. Equally you could say the same of almost every army in most countries. Take Iraq for example, the public in both UK and USA are against the war and want the troops home, but it doesn't matter how unpopular the war is, the troops are there, the US and UK armies are merely puppets for the neocons who control the government. They aren't fighting for freedom, or for the american or british people, or for whatever mixed up-brainwashed ideas they have for being in Iraq, they are there because the neocons in control want them there, they are a private army and are not at all controlled by the public, but the public finances it, so it is a great situation for the neocons, they have a private army doing their security and not only is it all paid for by the taxpayer but they also make fortunes from supplying them weapons etc.

WW1 is one of the best examples you will have of a crazy war totally manipulated by those in power. This is another chapter, you could go off in so many directions. It is good to see you making good progress.

[edit on 13-4-2007 by KilgoreTrout]

Golddragnet

I understand much more now, it makes you look at everything differently, there is a glaring reality about things.

Wisdom on the matter from an unlikely source (Ian Brady, The Gates of Janus);

"In effect, the criminal seriously studies the largely unscrupulous moral standards practised by ostensible 'pillars of society', and modifies his values accordingly. He thereby becomes a player. Ableit, by force of circumstances and lack of priviledged upbringing, having to adopt less sophisticated but no less ruthless methods than his social superiors."

Brady offers a unique perspective and one that can be applied to these circumstances. The criminal mentality - success at all costs, the ends justifying the means.

Professor Ludwig von Mises, an Austrian Economist wrote in The Theory of Money and Credit (1912) that periods of inflation and depression were not a natural part of Capitalism but were the effects of government control and mismanagement of the monetary systems by the manipulation of markets. (Source Richard Ebeling 'The Economist as the Historian of Decline' -Hillsdale College).

Time Magazine, 22 May 1939, following the ransom of Louis Rothschild after almost a year of being held under 'hotel arrest' by the gestapo. Link to full article
www.time.com...

"Fourth-generation descendant of Mayer Amschel, founder of the Rothschild fortune, Louis was the only one of six children of the Vienna branch of the clan to be an active director of the family business, the Creditanstalt, State bank of the Habsburgs, of which he became president in 1911. The Rothschild bank survived the Austro-Hungarian collapse in 1918, remained Central Europe's biggest financial house. In 1929, with a typical Rothschild gesture, Baron Louis rushed to Vienna from a hunting expedition, took over the insolvent Bodencreditanstalt, great Austrian bank, the failure of which threatened the nation's ruin. Two years later the Creditanstalt, weakened by the merger, itself failed, plunging Europe into financial crisis. Prosecution of Baron Louis was dropped when he "voluntarily" handed over $10,000,000 of his private fortune to the Government and resigned as the bank's president."

A gem I think. Zionism is a total misconception. Zionism has absolutely nothing to do with Judiasm. I suspect it is a misnomer or a derivative from 'sion' - the movement to convert the jews or heretics, which would include muslims I suppose. This would explain the anti-zionist movement within the Jewish community. Interestingly John in Welsh is Sion (with an accent, derived from the french Jean). Co-incidence?

I've got the bigger picture now but by no means all the details, its all circumstantial. You've helped me to answer the OP and I think there are sound reasons why the holocaust should be re-examined. The Jewish people have absolutely nothing to hide. To go further would mean going off thread - further than I have done! Thanks Golddragnet its been a pleasure - thanks for the last lot of links - I enjoyed the film and the article provided an interesting nugget. I'll add you to my friend's if you don't mind.

All the best

pcapostate.blogspot.com...

Its been a long time since I have read am aticle that lined up directly with my own thoughts. Read it and weep.

While I am not weeping, I have read the article and I do understand Your perspective. There is some questions regarding historical enquiry to the period and its legality.

This is a highly complex area of history (as most are) and it is important to look in greater detail. Just because some stories have been disproved as hysteria and attention seeking, does not mean that all the accounts are untrue. Do you think that sadism did not exist in the camps, do you not think that some people given carte blanche would not indulge their more abhorrent tendencies? Each case has to be considered individually. Just because some doubt exist does not mean that everything is a lie.

In reappraisal I have amended my opinion somewhat, I have been re-reading and trying to further my understanding of the period. I have found anomalies and glaring omissions, there are gross inconsistencies but they have nothing to do with numbers, not directly at least. I get sick of saying it, and I mean no disrespect to anyone, but the numbers are irrevelent. Yes for one reason or another they may be exaggerated - but why? Is it by design or simply over-estimation?

Ask yourself who are the Zionists - what is a Zionist? Ask what could be so damning about questioning the holocaust? Just the numbers...don't be so naive, dig deeper...who has the most to lose, what difference do numbers make, there are still a lot of bodies?

The war trials were largely of the kangeroo variety this is widely acknowledged, they were a moral exercise of the victors - Russian, British and US - each with their own agenda, there was very little justice done for the victims it was more of a cathartic exercise to allow everyone closure so that re-building could begin.

Those that focus merely on the numbers are missing the point entirely. The emphasis has been put on the suffering of the jews and there is an inequity there, to term it the 'holocaust' is in itself a distortion. It does ignore the many other groups, like the ethnic poles who were slaughtered under the regime. This signifies that there may have been an agenda to use events to gain consent for Israel, but it does not obliterate the facts.

As long as the debate stays in the numbers, as long as anti-semitism is the fuel the real questions remain out of the public eye. I admire your doggedness but you are preaching to the converted or to no-one at all. Never mistake the fact that the Nazis fought tooth and nail to acheive power, they should have conquered Europe, they had the might but for some reason it didn't come off - why do you think that was? Why was the US so eager to handle the prosecution of the high ranking administrators?

There are many questions that we should be asking about Nazi Germany but for some reason attention keeps getting deflected to the numbers. Millions died, millions what are six more or less. Individuals suffered not numbers.