Being "saved"

Originally posted by beergoggles
Once saved, always saved?

Or can a person LOSE their salvation?

Peace,
BG

Well, this will surprise anybody that paid attention to what christian denomination I was raised in...but, YES, you can lose your salvation.

Why? Because we are free moral agents. We don't become puppets when we believe. We still have the choice to believe, even while we are believing. We can decide not to believe anymore. Hence the need for the word "apostacy" in the bible...a falling away, or a falling out of believing. And that's where I differ from a "fundamentalist" Calvinist....it's probably just about the only place I do, but I do.

Originally posted by postings
So how does God determine if you are worthy or not?

Well, as I stated in two other posts on this thread...SALVATION IS NONMERITORIOUS. That means you don't "earn it", you don't "act it" into being...nobody is worthy. If we went of worthy no one would be saved. I'm not worthy.

Originally posted by worshipthemoon


In that case, I'd rather go to Hell. Heaven will just be full of murderers and hypocrites.

This is a really dumb statement. I'm sorry. I don't push my beliefs on anybody, but I also don't turn down an opportunity to share them. I am going to accept you and respect you no matter how you believe/disbelieve.

But to say you would choose the negative of God's love because of hypocrits is really kind of not logical. Think about it this way:

If a hypocrite stands between you and God...who's standing closer to God?

All's I'm trying to say is that, if your making a spiritual choice based on your hatred or disgust of some one who hasn't lived their life right...you really need to look at finding a better reason.

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by Valhall]

Why is Jesus the ONLY way though?
History points to the fact that his means of being the only way to Salvation was written into the Bible to shore up the power of Christianity over it's followers.
And what about the people who lived before Christianity? Did they all go to hell? They wouldn't have believed or even known about Christ as he is a relatively new concept with regards to human history. Why wasn't Christianity around earlier - if it is the only way to Salvation why did Jesus come so late in our time? His coming is prophesised in the Old Testament but his arrival thousands of years later means that all of man before his time never had a chance to follow him. Why would God leave it so late and condemn the whole of early man before Christ came along?

And why make it so that Christianity is only one of thousands of religions? Why wasn't it presented in a form that could sweep aside all others? Why give us something that is so easy to cast aside? Wouldn't it be more sensible, that if Jesus is the only way to save our souls, there would have been something more convincing than Christianity as it was/is? After all, saving your soul could be the most important part of your personal human history. Why take such a big chance giving us something that goes against the whole grain of our logical being and which can be so easily manipulated by those who hold it's secrets?

I'm afraid that I believe the scenario of Jesus being the only way to Salvation was put into place by other men to force us to follow their religion for purpose of power and money.

My view is that you live your life the best that you can. You do what you can and try to be as good a person as your humanity tells you that you should be. Then you just have to hope for the best. Either way, it's not up to you or another man whether your soul is saved.
That decision is up to God alone.

Originally posted by Leveller
Why is Jesus the ONLY way though?
History points to the fact that his means of being the only way to Salvation was written into the Bible to shore up the power of Christianity over it's followers.
And what about the people who lived before Christianity? Did they all go to hell? They wouldn't have believed or even known about Christ as he is a relatively new concept with regards to human history. Why wasn't Christianity around earlier - if it is the only way to Salvation why did Jesus come so late in our time? His coming is prophesised in the Old Testament but his arrival thousands of years later means that all of man before his time never had a chance to follow him. Why would God leave it so late and condemn the whole of early man before Christ came along?

And why make it so that Christianity is only one of thousands of religions? Why wasn't it presented in a form that could sweep aside all others? Why give us something that is so easy to cast aside? Wouldn't it be more sensible, that if Jesus is the only way to save our souls, there would have been something more convincing than Christianity as it was/is? After all, saving your soul could be the most important part of your personal human history. Why take such a big chance giving us something that goes against the whole grain of our logical being and which can be so easily manipulated by those who hold it's secrets?

I'm afraid that I believe the scenario of Jesus being the only way to Salvation was put into place by other men to force us to follow their religion for purpose of power and money.

My view is that you live your life the best that you can. You do what you can and try to be as good a person as your humanity tells you that you should be. Then you just have to hope for the best. Either way, it's not up to you or another man whether your soul is saved.
That decision is up to God alone.

The beauty of all this is Leveller. That as free moral agents I am free to believe that there are answers to your questions, and you are free to reject those answers. I think that's awesome.

And...

"Either way, it's not up to you or another man whether your soul is saved.
That decision is up to God alone."

No truer words have been spoken in this thread...the kicker is, that it seems that the Christian believers in this thread are far less judgmental than some of the nonbelievers. See we "get it" about our beliefs. There is one judge...God. I am not going to judge anybody else's spiritual status based on their acts or lifestyle.

im sorry that you think that everyone commits crimes with the intent of repenting for it later.... that aint how it works. people commit these actions when they dont have salvation and most have rejected it in the past (much like youre doing) and they realize what they have done was wrong and get their life right. this should be applauded not criticized. but you make it seem like ALL christian were once murderers and thieves. for the most part, the christians that are living correctly (the non-hypocrites) have been doing so their entire lives. these people make mistakes - yes. but EVERYONE does. the ONLY person who has walked the earth never to have sinned was Christ himself.

Originally posted by beergoggles
Once saved, always saved?

Or can a person LOSE their salvation?

Peace,
BG

Everyone's Saved.

www.tentmaker.org...

www.gospelrevolution.com...

Jesus Christ, The Saviour of ALL Men, Specially those who believe.
1 Timothy 4:10

as for Hell ... get over it

[Edited on 22-12-2003 by Sapphire]

Originally posted by LearningRopes
im sorry that you think that everyone commits crimes with the intent of repenting for it later.... that aint how it works. people commit these actions when they dont have salvation and most have rejected it in the past (much like youre doing) and they realize what they have done was wrong and get their life right. this should be applauded not criticized. but you make it seem like ALL christian were once murderers and thieves. for the most part, the christians that are living correctly (the non-hypocrites) have been doing so their entire lives. these people make mistakes - yes. but EVERYONE does. the ONLY person who has walked the earth never to have sinned was Christ himself.

Paul said, I do that which i would Not, and i do that which i should but do not. In other words he did # he shouldnt have but did it anyways, the flesh is like that, funny isn't it heh. The Spirit cannot be blamed based on what the corrupt flesh has done, thats just retarded. Everybodys saved, end of story ...

True, however, there is the 10 commandments. I was always taught that these were mortal sins, and that to commit one would instantly make heaven inaccessible to you. But later in the bible, in Matthew, Luke (and others I think) it says that God judges you with the same intensity and quality (to paraphrase) that you use to judge others. I believe it is Matt 3-7, although I would need to look it up to be sure. Anyway, I have always taken that to mean that all of the little stuff (such non-10 commandments stuff) are things that God will turn your own judgement against you with once you get to the gates of heaven, and 10 commandments are absolutes that need never be breached. So we have priests that bless those who have committed murder just before being gassed. Yet at least one of those commandments have been broken obviously. I thought because of that mortal sin, the subject would not be allowed entrance into heaven. What do you all think?

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by Leveller
Why is Jesus the ONLY way though?
History points to the fact that his means of being the only way to Salvation was written into the Bible to shore up the power of Christianity over it's followers.
And what about the people who lived before Christianity? Did they all go to hell? They wouldn't have believed or even known about Christ as he is a relatively new concept with regards to human history. Why wasn't Christianity around earlier - if it is the only way to Salvation why did Jesus come so late in our time? His coming is prophesised in the Old Testament but his arrival thousands of years later means that all of man before his time never had a chance to follow him. Why would God leave it so late and condemn the whole of early man before Christ came along?

And why make it so that Christianity is only one of thousands of religions? Why wasn't it presented in a form that could sweep aside all others? Why give us something that is so easy to cast aside? Wouldn't it be more sensible, that if Jesus is the only way to save our souls, there would have been something more convincing than Christianity as it was/is? After all, saving your soul could be the most important part of your personal human history. Why take such a big chance giving us something that goes against the whole grain of our logical being and which can be so easily manipulated by those who hold it's secrets?

I'm afraid that I believe the scenario of Jesus being the only way to Salvation was put into place by other men to force us to follow their religion for purpose of power and money.

My view is that you live your life the best that you can. You do what you can and try to be as good a person as your humanity tells you that you should be. Then you just have to hope for the best. Either way, it's not up to you or another man whether your soul is saved.
That decision is up to God alone.

The beauty of all this is Leveller. That as free moral agents I am free to believe that there are answers to your questions, and you are free to reject those answers. I think that's awesome.

And...

"Either way, it's not up to you or another man whether your soul is saved.
That decision is up to God alone."

No truer words have been spoken in this thread...the kicker is, that it seems that the Christian believers in this thread are far less judgmental than some of the nonbelievers. See we "get it" about our beliefs. There is one judge...God. I am not going to judge anybody else's spiritual status based on their acts or lifestyle.

Let me add this ..

If anyone has to believe in Jesus in order to be saved they have to also love with with all their heart soul mind and body. How much of a choice is it anymore? First of all the church is telling you that God wont save you unless you love him completely nothing wavering. Then you end up questioning if you 'really' love God enough to be saved. Do you really believe 'enough' to be saved? If so how much do you have to believe in order to be saved? This poses a serious problem. It's no longer 'Good News' is it? It's Bad News. Why you ask? Your being given 2 choices here according to Religion.
1. Believe in Jesus and be saved - but love him with everything you've got 'or else'.

2. Love God with everything you've got. If you aren't really loving him with everything you've got, how would you know?

What kind of freaking choice is that?? How can anyone love anyone out of Force? example, Love me or Die. That is NOT a choice. It's called blackmail, and even then your doing it out of Fear. It's not how God operates. We are all a part of God We are all different. I've been to churches i've seen it all. And yes if you seek you will find all the answers. But if your afraid to crawl outside your religious box then forget it, you'll never find any.



[Edited on 22-12-2003 by Sapphire]

first, accept Him as your savior. this is "being saved" (the said title of this thread).
THEN, establish a personal relationship with Him through prayer and reading the Bible.

i think i should ask... who knows/believes in what the Trinity is?

Originally posted by postings
True, however, there is the 10 commandments. I was always taught that these were mortal sins, and that to commit one would instantly make heaven inaccessible to you. But later in the bible, in Matthew, Luke (and others I think) it says that God judges you with the same intensity and quality (to paraphrase) that you use to judge others. I believe it is Matt 3-7, although I would need to look it up to be sure. Anyway, I have always taken that to mean that all of the little stuff (such non-10 commandments stuff) are things that God will turn your own judgement against you with once you get to the gates of heaven, and 10 commandments are absolutes that need never be breached. So we have priests that bless those who have committed murder just before being gassed. Yet at least one of those commandments have been broken obviously. I thought because of that mortal sin, the subject would not be allowed entrance into heaven. What do you all think?

We do not believe the same way. I'll just leave at that.

No worries. Different perspectives don't threaten me. I actually embrace them. Maybe I am mistaken?

-P

Originally posted by Valhall

Originally posted by postings
True, however, there is the 10 commandments. I was always taught that these were mortal sins, and that to commit one would instantly make heaven inaccessible to you. But later in the bible, in Matthew, Luke (and others I think) it says that God judges you with the same intensity and quality (to paraphrase) that you use to judge others. I believe it is Matt 3-7, although I would need to look it up to be sure. Anyway, I have always taken that to mean that all of the little stuff (such non-10 commandments stuff) are things that God will turn your own judgement against you with once you get to the gates of heaven, and 10 commandments are absolutes that need never be breached. So we have priests that bless those who have committed murder just before being gassed. Yet at least one of those commandments have been broken obviously. I thought because of that mortal sin, the subject would not be allowed entrance into heaven. What do you all think?

We do not believe the same way. I'll just leave at that.