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posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 08:51 PM
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Looking for evidence for masonic children abuse, I found this description of what characterizes a cult.

The below excellent 10-point description of religious sects can be applied not only to Freemasons, but also to groups like the Maffia and the C.I.A., which are clandestine groups that are only hermetical in their ideological secrecy. In contrast with religious sects -- who are generally looking for a secluded life -- Freemasons, mob members and C.IA. are three groups that actively choose to infiltrate society to steer it in a desired direction.
Which is scary if you consider their features:



1) The Doctrine is Reality - The cult's beliefs allow no interpretation or other theories.

2) Reality is Black and White, Good Versus Evil - no outside group is valid, "no room for interpretation"

3) Elitist Mentality - they are the chosen ones.

4) Group Will Over Individual Will - "the self must submit to the group" "conformity is good".

5) Strict Obedience: Modeling the Leader - the leader is imitated by everyone.

6) Happiness through good performance - behaviors are controlled by shaming, competition.

7) Manipulation through fear and guilt - includes exit phobias, the devil, God, communism, etc. will hurt you.

8) Emotional highs and lows - from great productivity to crashing (due to individual's inadequacies).

9) Changes in Time Orientation - pre-cult life is bad, the present is crucial (pressure to meet quotas, etc.).

10) No Way Out - There is never a legitimate reason for leaving.




[edit on 28-2-2007 by Thodeph]




posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 08:54 PM
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Wow, that sounds exactly like my time in boot camp, trying to become one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children(USMC).



posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 09:12 PM
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Masonic child abuse? Out of all things this is unheard of to me.

I never experienced any of the above. Maybe elitist but we all can be at certain achievements or rites of passage or is it just pride.



posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 09:37 PM
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Originally posted by Thodeph
Looking for evidence for masonic children abuse, I found this description of what characterizes a cult.

The below excellent 10-point description of religious sects can be applied not only to Freemasons, *snip*


I absolutely disagree that it applies to Freemasonry. I will address each in turn. Feel free to contradict me wherever you feel you can. I'm aways up for a debate!








1) The Doctrine is Reality - The cult's beliefs allow no interpretation or other theories.


Freemasonry does not dictate a man's spiritual beliefs. Each man is able, and encouraged, to worship in his own way, under his own belief system.

Freemasonry's tenets of Brotherly Love, Relief, and Truth, however, are indisputable. Pretty sinister, eh.


2) Reality is Black and White, Good Versus Evil - no outside group is valid, "no room for interpretation"


Freemasonry doesn't condemn or invalidate other fraternities or organisations, except those which are implicitly criminal.


3) Elitist Mentality - they are the chosen ones.


The only way in which Freemasons can possibly be considered "elite" is in the fact that we have applied for and been granted membership, and are therefore "different" in that way from non-members. ANY other bloke of mature age, with a belief in a Supreme Being, and possessing no criminal record, can do likewise. Hardly elitist.


4) Group Will Over Individual Will - "the self must submit to the group" "conformity is good".


Freemasons work together as a group, but none can be compelled by Lodge authorities to do anything which contradicts his conscience or beliefs.


5) Strict Obedience: Modeling the Leader - the leader is imitated by everyone.


Often our Lodge Master is someone worthy to imitate, but this is not done via "strict obedience". It's certainly not a "personality cult", which would be impossible to engineer anyway, as the office of Lodge Master changes every single year.


6) Happiness through good performance - behaviors are controlled by shaming, competition.


There is no competition. Anyone can progress through the 3 grades, reardless of how many others have done so. Offices are annually cyclical, so there is very little competition for these either. Virtually anyone can potentially have a "turn" at holding office at some point.


7) Manipulation through fear and guilt - includes exit phobias, the devil, God, communism, etc. will hurt you.


We don't have any boogeymen, except for ignorance and deceit.



8) Emotional highs and lows - from great productivity to crashing (due to individual's inadequacies).


Uhh... this certainly doesn't apply, but I'm happy to hear arguments to the contrary.


9) Changes in Time Orientation - pre-cult life is bad, the present is crucial (pressure to meet quotas, etc.).


Freemasonry sometimes refers to pre-initiation as a "state of darkness", but IMHO this archaic and flowery language is intended to impress upon the candidate the importance of constantly progressing their knowledge of God, themselves, and the world around them , rather than allowing themselves to mentally stagnate. It is a reference to knowledge being "light". And that means all knowledge, not just Masonic lore.


10) No Way Out - There is never a legitimate reason for leaving.


In my own lodge, we have accepted resignations without persecuting the departing Brother. We didn't even drug his dog or blow up his toilet.

It's an individual's choice. We are, of course, sad that the departing Brother will not be sharing in further fellowship with us, but it generally provokes soul-searching by the Lodge (ie: are we being supportive/friendly enough?) rather than a campaign of persecution for the person "having dared" to do something else with their time...




posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 07:43 AM
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Actually, your list characterizes anti-Masons to a "T". Go figure.



Originally posted by Thodeph
Looking for evidence for masonic children abuse, I found this description of what characterizes a cult.

The below excellent 10-point description of religious sects can be applied not only to Freemasons, but also to groups like the Maffia and the C.I.A., which are clandestine groups that are only hermetical in their ideological secrecy. In contrast with religious sects -- who are generally looking for a secluded life -- Freemasons, mob members and C.IA. are three groups that actively choose to infiltrate society to steer it in a desired direction.
Which is scary if you consider their features:



1) The Doctrine is Reality - The cult's beliefs allow no interpretation or other theories.

2) Reality is Black and White, Good Versus Evil - no outside group is valid, "no room for interpretation"

3) Elitist Mentality - they are the chosen ones.

4) Group Will Over Individual Will - "the self must submit to the group" "conformity is good".

5) Strict Obedience: Modeling the Leader - the leader is imitated by everyone.

6) Happiness through good performance - behaviors are controlled by shaming, competition.

7) Manipulation through fear and guilt - includes exit phobias, the devil, God, communism, etc. will hurt you.

8) Emotional highs and lows - from great productivity to crashing (due to individual's inadequacies).

9) Changes in Time Orientation - pre-cult life is bad, the present is crucial (pressure to meet quotas, etc.).

10) No Way Out - There is never a legitimate reason for leaving.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 09:19 AM
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I don't actually understand how this applies to the mafia or CIA, either.

Thodeph, perhaps you could elaborate on why that makes sense to you?



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 11:58 AM
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Id' like to add one point to the list:

11.) Denial - each member will be able to prove he's not part of a "cult" by any of these definitions.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 12:11 PM
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My ex-wife grew up in an atmosphere similar to that described above. Rather than controlling an individual through forceful/physical means, they do it through manipulation. See Coercive Persuasion.

I don't see how it applies to Freemasonry in general, though there may very well be certain FM groups who apply such methods. My ex's family for instance were Catholics, but most Catholics never experience a cult lifestyle. All you need is a charismatic leader and enough sheep to follow... it doesn't really matter what type of religion you are.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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As that list stands, it could well apply to many of the worlds mainstream
organized religions as well, such as Islam or Catholicism.

My apologies to any members of those faiths, I'm not inferring that they are
such.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 01:59 PM
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Originally posted by Thodeph
Looking for evidence for masonic children abuse...

How have you been getting on with that? Have you found any links between organized masonry and child abuse? I have heard some claim that there is ritual child abuse in masonic lodges.

Are you ready to share any of your findings with the ATS community?

I'd like to think that you do actually have some, 'cos I'd sure hate to think you are smearing freemasonry just for the heck of it.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 02:54 PM
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Seems to me that this list describes most religious groups also. I don't think the secret societies hold the monopoly on cult-like behaviour.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 05:50 PM
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Originally posted by poll5984
Seems to me that this list describes most religious groups also. I don't think the secret societies hold the monopoly on cult-like behaviour.


I guess what's really funny is that the essence of Freemasonry is "anti-cult". Those who've studied the subject understand that Masonry in its modern form is a product of the Enlightenment. The whole point seems to have been an attempt to get away from the cult/herd mentality and the superstitions of the past.

Freemasonry quickly gained in popularity because it was a society of rationalists and freethinkers, and these men considered Masonry the Enlightenment Club. This is why so many famed philosophers, artists, poets, and liberals of the day were very active in the fraternity, including many of our own founding fathers.

Freemasonry is extremely individualistic. That's why it welcomes all good men regardless of political or religious opinions (and is why it is still hated by the religious right: it refuses to cave in to a herd mentality on religion, or anything else).



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 08:25 PM
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Originally posted by Akareyon
Id' like to add one point to the list:

11.) Denial - each member will be able to prove he's not part of a "cult" by any of these definitions.


So anyone who disproves that they're in a cult actually IS?

That's... interesting logic.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 09:28 PM
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Cults don't go through all the trouble to get you roped in just for the fun of it. They want your money and any assets they may be able to sell for money. My lodge gets $35 a year from me and I get at least a dozen good meals during that year not to mention a few beers
(not in-lodge of course
)



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 06:47 PM
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As a matter of fact, the freemasonic ATS crew exhibits all cult-like characteristics in this thread. Mention a freemason in a paedophile scandal to test it for yourself. They feel personally hurt when you do, it's quite sad.



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 07:00 PM
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Originally posted by Thodeph
As a matter of fact, the freemasonic ATS crew exhibits all cult-like characteristics in this thread. Mention a freemason in a paedophile scandal to test it for yourself. They feel personally hurt when you do, it's quite sad.


Interesting that you would call innocent people defending themselves against outright lies "cult-like characteristics".

However, I expect no better from a real cultist.



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 07:08 PM
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Originally posted by Thodeph
Looking for evidence for masonic children abuse, I found this description of what characterizes a cult.


How does a cult scoring list help you find child abusers?
How does a cult scoring list relate to Freemasonry?
On what basis do you feel the need to point the finger at Freemasons in connection with abuse?
Where is your supporting evidence or hypothesis to show that the organisation is collectively responsible for child abuse?

Yes, I am a Freemason (Fellowcraft).
No, I am not a child abuser.
No, I am not a member of a cult and can not think of a single instance where even one of your "criteria" for my being a member of a cult have been met. Roark has answered each of the points you quoted better than I could.

The list you quote can be applied to any one of a number of organisations I can readily bring to mind. However, if you do your own independent research, you will perhaps realise how preposterous and frankly insulting your assertion actually is.

Would you care to address my questions and points, providing evidence as you do so? I would be genuinely interested in seeing the evidence to prove that I belong to an organisation responsible for child abuse. I will resign immediately when I see this as I do not wish to be associated with such.

I look forward to reading your response.

Grey



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 07:20 PM
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Originally posted by Thodeph
As a matter of fact, the freemasonic ATS crew exhibits all cult-like characteristics in this thread. Mention a freemason in a paedophile scandal to test it for yourself. They feel personally hurt when you do, it's quite sad.

Thanks for reminding me about that thread. It's the one where I completely debunked that nonsense about Thomas Hamilton, which was your prime example of masonic pedophilia.

It's left you without a leg to stand on, metaphorically speaking, and IMO lacking in any credibility. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a brainwashed cultist.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 07:52 AM
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Originally posted by Trinityman

Originally posted by Thodeph
As a matter of fact, the freemasonic ATS crew exhibits all cult-like characteristics in this thread. Mention a freemason in a paedophile scandal to test it for yourself. They feel personally hurt when you do, it's quite sad.

Thanks for reminding me about that thread. It's the one where I completely debunked that nonsense about Thomas Hamilton, which was your prime example of masonic pedophilia.

It's left you without a leg to stand on, metaphorically speaking, and IMO lacking in any credibility. But hey, what do I know, I'm just a brainwashed cultist.


All I did was post articles from acknowledged newspapers -- The Guardian, The Enquirer, etc -- citing cases in which freemasons were accused of paedophilia (sometimes by other freemasons!) or implicated in the sabotage of investigations of child murder.

What you get in return, is the outright hysterical debunking by the ATS freemasons crew that you don't present any evidence or that no real freemasons are involved in the cases.

In order to demonstrate the neutrality to which these people seem to adhere, they could have admitted that these cases create valid questions on the ethics of freemasonry. Instead, they feel personally attacked.

Brainwashed cultist? You're not alone, apparently.



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by Thodeph
All I did was post articles from acknowledged newspapers -- The Guardian, The Enquirer, etc -- citing cases in which freemasons were accused of paedophilia (sometimes by other freemasons!) or implicated in the sabotage of investigations of child murder.


Accused? Were they then arrested, tried and convicted? If not, why? Implicated does not mean guilty either.


Originally posted by ThodephWhat you get in return, is the outright hysterical debunking by the ATS freemasons crew that you don't present any evidence or that no real freemasons are involved in the cases.


Sorry? I don't think my posts are hysterical at all. To flame and call you names would have been so. You made the assertion. You are the one looking for "evidence". You back up your own claims. The onus is on you to provide some tangible link. Can you cite the actual newspaper articles please? I haven't seen them, but would like to read them for myself.


Originally posted by ThodephIn order to demonstrate the neutrality to which these people seem to adhere, they could have admitted that these cases create valid questions on the ethics of freemasonry. Instead, they feel personally attacked.


What cases? Links, quotes or anything else please?

I could have substituted the word "masonic" in your OP opening sentence with any number of organisations (police, government etc.). It would have been equally ludicrous for me to do so without a shred of supporting evidence or without citing reliable external sources directly. Is there an official inquiry or investigation? If not, why?

Is your implication that child abuse is systemic within Freemasonry? If not, why even mention the organisation at all? If so, then please provide a link (not a URL!).

You have received a number of responses in this thread and have chosen to ignore them all. Therefore I can only assume you are not actually looking for "evidence" at all.

Would you please address the posts so far to show that you are looking for a dialog rather than simply trolling.

Grey



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