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Human Right Watch Urge Bush to Explain the Fate of 38 Detainees Gone Missing in CIA 'Black Sites'

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posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 08:14 PM
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Human Right Watch Urge Bush to Explain the Fate of 38 Detainees Gone Missing in CIA 'Black Sites'


Source Link: news.scotsman.com

UP TO 38 people who may have been held in secret CIA prisons are missing, according to a human rights group.

A new report by Human Rights Watch (HRW) also details a terrorist suspect's allegations that he was held for over two years at a so-called "black site", where he was kept naked for six weeks and chained to the wall of his cell so tightly that he could not stand up.

Marwan Jabour alleged he was placed in painful stress positions that made it difficult to breathe and was threatened with being put in a suffocating "dog box" if he did not co-operate.
(visit the link for the full news article)

Related News Links:
www.irishexaminer.com
news.bbc.co.uk

Related AboveTopSecret.com Discussion Threads:
CIA Holds Terror Suspects in Secret "Black Site" Prisons
WAR: Rice Criticizes Europe Over Secret Prisons Complaints
Germany Takes Action, Issues Warrants to Arrest 13 CIA Agents

[edit on 28-2-2007 by khunmoon]




posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 09:04 PM
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Since when the Bush administration listens to what others say . . .

Bush is running a war and he is in charge . . . and terrorist has not rights.


What a hypocrisy . . . for one side we have

The US government has long condemned these abusive practices in its policy statements and annual human rights reports," Hare's Ghost Prisoner report said. "Its own use of them severely undermines its moral authority on human rights."


Is very nice to tell the world how to run their business but don't you dare to tell The bush administration how to run his.



posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 09:21 PM
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I think the human rights watch should spend their time on the hundreds of thousands of people dying in Darfur.

Where's the UN on this one? Before you complain about 38 suspected terrorists' whereabouts you should consider what is happening to these innocents in this region.



posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 10:10 PM
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Darfur, you say!? Erhmm... what.. what about Iraq?


US counterterrorism officials would not confirm the account, but said they say they still viewed Mr Jabour as one of al Qaida’s most dangerous members.
(from the Irish Examinier link)
Then the ones gone missing must have been really bad.

I just wonder where they dispose the bodies. Could they --like the Mob use to-- dumb them into the foundations poured when they make constructions. Like the freedom tower.

Nah... only speculations.



posted on Feb, 28 2007 @ 11:27 PM
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Originally posted by JacKatMtn

Before you complain about 38 suspected terrorists' whereabouts you should consider what is happening to these innocents in this region.



Why on earth should we ignore one injustice to focus exclusively on another? Deflection.


Everyone is important, imo.

And as a 'super power,' the USA has a responsibility to be a good role model.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 12:14 AM
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I agree with you soficrow. I also think it's complete crap that these people are being held indefinately without any rights. What's even worse is they can't even use the US court system to try and defend themselves. The thing is they are SUSPECTED terrorists, they have not been tried nor formally charged. This whole thing always has and is still reminiscent of holocaust like concentration camps. If lots of these people die and more go missing I hope Bush gets charged with crimes against humanity and has to pay for what his administration has done to these people. Especially since 9/11 is looking more and more like a false flag op than a simple terrorist attack.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 01:32 AM
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The bigger issue would of course be Darfur, but this is also worthy of an investigation, because not only is is believed to have happened, it's likely to happen again and again. This investigation will limit the government's power in a way to keep it from ever occurring to its own citizens.

Torture is not legal here in the US, but if the rules of the current administration are continued, who's to say that you wont be sent to another country to have information extracted from you through torture, for allegedly committing a crime?



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 07:41 AM
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Here's a press release from Human Rights Education Associates about the HRW report.
www.hrea.org


The 50-page report, "Ghost Prisoner: Two Years in Secret CIA Detention," contains a detailed description of a secret CIA prison from a Palestinian former detainee who was released from custody last year. Human Rights Watch has also sent a public letter to US President George W. Bush requesting information about the fate and whereabouts of the missing detainees.

"President Bush told us that the last 14 CIA prisoners were sent to Guantanamo, but there are many other prisoners ‘disappeared' by the CIA whose fate is still unknown," said Joanne Mariner, terrorism and counterterrorism director at Human Rights Watch. "The question is: what happened to these people and where are they now?"
[....]

"The CIA program -- and the civilian leaders who created it -- have inflicted tremendous harm on the reputation, moral standing, and integrity of the United States," Mariner said. "It's time for President Bush to repudiate this program, and to take steps to repair the damage it has done."

The damage done. What a shame.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 08:10 AM
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Question to everyone that has posted to this thread so far, bashing the US and the troops.
Have you taken the time to read the letter or the report that the HRW has written? I think not. I say this since many of you have, in the past, derided the authenticity of a report when it is soley based on one "eye witness" especially if the eye-witness has an agenda.
The entire report as well the letter to Bush clearly state that they are basing their numbers off of the testimony of an admitted Palestinian Islamic extremist Marwan al-Jabour. Who also admits that in 1998 he trained in Afghanistan in the hope of fighting in Chechnya. He also says he helped Arab militants who had fled Afghanistan for Pakistan in 2003.
Please take the time to read the entire report. If this evidence were to be presented in a court of law in any country, it would be thrown out.
Also take time to note that even Mr. al-Jabour states that he was never abused while there were americans around. The only ones that abused him were his own countrymen. Yet, HRW translates this into torture by americans.
Hmmm. this gentlam is taken by his own people, he is held in his own people's jail, he is only abused by his people, yet it is all america's fault. Does no one else see something wrong with this picture?

This ranks right up there with Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila who was the "innocent" illegal immigran/ drug runner who was shot in the backside by border patrol agents. The border patrol agents are now doing 10 -11 yrs for this Yet Sr. Osbaldo Aldrete-Davila, is under investigation for stashing of 750 pounds of marijuana in a van at a house in Clint, Texas 9 months after being shot
Washinton Times

If all the bashers here are still up to giving creadence to this report then by using those same standards for evidence, you must also start admitting that Stichen is truthful, that John Titor was on the up and up.

Take the time to read the report and the letter. Then make your judgement. Don't just jump to it. Bad karma there

HRW Ghost Prisoner



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 10:45 AM
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Before making my judgement I like to ask you, do you think if you get someone, at your instruction, to afflict pain on others, that you are not perpetrator of anything that might have karmic consequences?

I have read Marwan al-Jabour account and I believe it. Kinda hard for him to produce any witnesses, wouldn't you agree in that?

Beside there are dozens and dozens of similar reports on the same inhumane, cruel, undignified behavior, describing the same practises as he does.

I believe the credibility of Marwan al-Jabour to be higher than that of a certain world-leader, who you rightfully could match in credibility with the two bogus figures you mention. Or the right-wing propaganda pamphlet of a dubious "religious" figure, known to have political as well as underworld ties, that you completely off-topic has to draw into this discussion.

This report is horrific reading, but I can only recommend it to anyone interested in the atrocities US government agencies are licensed to do on a scale which makes it a crime against humanity. And against the American people.

Tremendous harm their leaders do to their reputation.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 11:46 AM
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khunmoon,



at your instruction, to afflict pain on others

question, where in the news reports or in the HRW reports, or the letter that the HRW sent to Bush did it say anything that such was done at the request / instruction of anyone from the US?
Please let me know since I have not seen that.


I believe the credibility of Marwan al-Jabour to be higher than that of a certain world-leader

You have that right, as do I in questioning his validity.




Or the right-wing propaganda pamphlet of a dubious "religious" figure, known to have political as well as underworld ties, that you completely off-topic has to draw into this discussion.


"religious" figure? who is that? I have reread my post and I do not see any "religious figure. One example I gave was another "innocent" who was "mistreated" by US forces, in this case the Border Patrol. This example has been lauded by the press to show just how bad the Border patrol are and the harm that they inflict on "innocent" people. He was brought into the discussion since he was actually breaking the law, continued to break the law, yet is deemed to be a credable witness against the Border Patrol. This is the same shoe that al-Jabour fits. He is "innocent" as well even though he admitted to being trained in Afghanistan. He also admits that he helps other Arab militants who are / were hiding in Pakistan. Yes sir, he is innocent and credible!
My introduction of John Titor and Stichin was an attempt to demonstrate the fallacy of basing your opinion off of one person's testimony as the HRW has done. Both Titor and Stichin have their supprters even today, yet the majority of the world understands that they have no crediblity.

Based off of the statements made by al-Jabour as well as the other "evidence" (which by HRW's own report is actually the lack of evidence in that they do not know that these people were taken by the US or their allies at the request of the US) if we are to beleive this gentleman and the HRW's statements due to the weight of the evidence, then we must give the same credence to such people as Stichin and Titor since they have given the world the same amount of evidence to prove their point. The evidence of which is solely their own statements.
How is bringing such examples of people who most disagree with "off-topic" I bring those people into this topic since most here at ATS deride them for putting forth their statements as undiputable facts, which is the same as al-Jabour has done. Sorry if you do not agree with that reasoning, that is your choice



This report is horrific reading, but I can only recommend it to anyone interested in the atrocities US government agencies are licensed to do on a scale which makes it a crime against humanity. And against the American people.

Agreed what was done to this gentleman by his Pakistani jailers is indeed horrific, but then again, it was done only by his fellow Pakistani's not by the US. Also please remember that Pakistan is fighting it's own internal warfare against the extremists who want to dethrone the present Pakistani goverment. Their laws are not the same as they are in the US and most of the world. What was done by the Pakistani jailers may well indeed by "lawful" under their goverment. I do no condone such treatment and I deplore such but for everyone to automatically point the finger at the US for such (especially when by thier own statments no americans were involved) is wrong.
Yes tremendous harm has been done to the reputation of americans. By the US goverment, but do not forget that the HRW, as well as the Red Cross have done the same. In the case of the Red Cross and the HRW, they both are basing their anti-US beliefs not on any evidence but soley on conjecture. Conjecture is nothing but supposition, a belief but is far from fact.



posted on Mar, 2 2007 @ 02:51 AM
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Originally posted by kenshiro2012
khunmoon,



at your instruction, to afflict pain on others

You're taking things out of context, 'your' is a reference to American supervisors, who carry out a request of their government to interrogate the objects in question on suspicions than more often than not shows to be merely speculations. So you cannot claim them to be innocent.

After all the whole set up is there on their order.




Or the right-wing propaganda pamphlet of a dubious "religious" figure, known to have political as well as underworld ties, that you completely off-topic has to draw into this discussion.


"religious" figure? who is that? I have reread my post and I do not see any "religious figure. One example I gave was another "innocent" who was "mistreated" by US forces, in this case the Border Patrol.

You know I'm referring to your source (sorry for goin' aft'r te man, rather than...), ...but its reputation seems somehow tainted among more serious observers. I don't wanna go off topic, but you know what I'm hinting at...
.. since you are on a board like this.

For your information,
Rev. Sun Myung Moon and his political/media/business/religious empire if you wanna explore.

It's a plain news piece of investigative journalism
by Robert Parry called 'Moon/Bush 'Ongoing Crime Enterprise'..
... please forgive the bushing, but can we now keep it on topic ..!?

I only know the over all of the case you mention, and only from headlines on the board, so I cannot comment on it.


This is the same shoe that al-Jabour fits. He is "innocent" as well even though he admitted to being trained in Afghanistan.

THAT's his crime. Ah.. I see ..!!
One of the enemy.




This report is horrific reading, but I can only recommend it to anyone interested in the atrocities US government agencies are licensed to do on a scale which makes it a crime against humanity. And against the American people.

Agreed what was done to this gentleman by his Pakistani jailers is indeed horrific, but then again, it was done only by his fellow Pakistanis not by the US.

Well, the guy was Palestinian, but whatever the "fellow" Pakistanis did, they did it on US request.


Their laws are not the same as they are in the US and most of the world. What was done by the Pakistani jailers may well indeed by "lawful" under their government.

EXACTLY! after all that's why US bother to put such installations there in the first place.
--

Sorry kenshiro,
I have a hard time seing actions like discussed to be jusified, especially as I don't believe in the proposed danger (most of) these people constitute.

[edit on 2-3-2007 by khunmoon]



posted on Mar, 2 2007 @ 07:46 AM
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American supervisors, who carry out a request of their government to interrogate the objects in question on suspicions than more often than not shows to be merely speculations. So you cannot claim them to be innocent. After all the whole set up is there on their order.

This is not stated by al-Jabour, nor HRW



Well, the guy was Palestinian, but whatever the "fellow" Pakistanis did, they did it on US request.

Please provide the proof to back this. It is not in either the HRW's report nor in the letter.



quote: This is the same shoe that al-Jabour fits. He is "innocent" as well even though he admitted to being trained in Afghanistan.
THAT's his crime. Ah.. I see ..!!
One of the enemy.

Not quite, he has also admitted that he has given support to Arab Militants. Please note that I shoew this above as well as showing that the Pakistani goverment is having it's own issues with Arab militants. Since that is the case, then al-Jabour could very well have been taken under
Pakistani orders since he is helping those who are fighting the goverment there. For all that we know, for all that the report provides, the American questioners may have just came in to get information that they needed from a prisoner that the Pakistani goverment already had. There is no mention that al-jabour had been taken under US orders, nor is there any mention that he was tortured by people under orders by the US. The HRW assumes both since there were american interegators at times there. But, al-jabour and the HRW do not say that either his capture nor his torture were done due to orders from the Americans.



Well, the guy was Palestinian, but whatever the "fellow" Pakistanis did, they did it on US request.
Please provide proof as again this is not in al-Jabour's statements nor in the HRW's report.




EXACTLY! after all that's why US bother to put such installations there in the first place.
Oops, bad assumption there. The facility that al-Jabour was kept at was a Pakistani prison not a US facility.

Have you ever seen the movie "Midnight Express"? If you have then you are aware that such conditions as well such treatment of prisoners held in prisons in that part of the world was / is inhumane to the extreme. If not, take the time and watch it, you may want to reassess your beliefs. To assume that somehow the US has had in all of the mistreatments of a prisoner that is held in these prisons ran by these foreign goverments is assuming that the US has much more influence in that part of the world than even the most extreme conspiracy theorist would beleive.



posted on Mar, 2 2007 @ 09:29 AM
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'Midnight Express' is one of my absolute favorite movies, must have seen it a dozen times since the day it came out in 1978. I've known friends and have close kin who personal experienced the condition in prisons of the region.

But you got to admit Americans neither want to, or have no interest whatsoever, to make humane interrogation facilities, when the whole purpose of the CIA 'black program' is to intimidate, to apply stress of physically pain and humiliation to a degree where psychologically breakdown is achieved.

That's called inhumane treatment and been documented for a long time as a proven practise of various US state agencies.

An indisputable source is the Council of Europe's draft report as it was published in November last year.

Here is a link to a page describing the routines of the American agents as it is written in
Councill of Europe's draft report *pdf* *patience recommended by download*

I hope you'll take the time to skim around in some of the 67 pages and dig down in the cases described therein before your just makes you all too self-assure.

[edit on 2-3-2007 by khunmoon]



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