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Masons view on 9-11

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posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:56 AM

Originally posted by Tamahu
Really, doesn't this same ol' back-and-forth over-and-over bickering get old?

Yes, but if that's what folks want to talk about...

If anything, the said "occult minutae" might actually get people to look at many important things that are always over-looked.

The problem is, Tamahu, that you try to make everything about Gnosticism or Ancient Egypt or something else.

Most Freemasons don't know what the word Gnostic means, and it's not a relevant concept to them.

You purport to tell us what the 'founders of Freemasonry' intended. We don't even know who the founders were, not even in what era it began... so how can you possibly know their intentions?

Frankly, at times the content of your posts are as irrelevant to the fraternity as some of the anti-masonic rants that get posted... just without the same intent.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
I know exactly what I'am talking about.

Oh. Well then. That solves everything. Argument over, you win.

Seriously, if you aren't here to discuss your misconceptions and learn, then why are you here?

You want to talk Christianity for a second? Here is what I see happening:

A man will find himself before the gates of Heaven. Thinking he was an upright Christian, he starts to stride forward. St. Peter holds out a hand. "Whoa, where do you think you are going? You led a life of intolerance and close-mindedness. You condemned people based on hearsay, and poor hearsay at that. You took a great idea like 'love one another' and twisted it into 'love those that subscribe to exactly what you believe, damn the rest'. You are going to burn."

The hamster that was running in the wheel in head is dead. And the light above it is burned out
It really is you who is making the pro masonic statments day in and day out.

Seriously, if I insulted you *once* in this manner on these forums, I'd get a warning. But you've made it through the 'rockpuke' and 'Masonic Hitler' stage, and now started this crap. When is enough, enough?

But then again I should really trust someone who is willing to take oaths about cutting a throat.

I'm sure you've never said anything figurative in your life.

I'm sure you never said 'cross your heart and hope to die', without being suicidal.

I'm sure you never offered to 'kick someone's ass', without intent to literally plant your shoe in their bum.

No, I'm sure the concept is totally foreign to you.

I think many of the readers have much insight to how wrong masonry is.

I think you have no understanding about what Freemasonry is. In the slightest.

You keep things secret from the new intiate. You will not talk about certain things with non members. Why?

For the same reason you don't tell a friend the twist ending to a movie, before he goes to see it. It ruins the experience.

Because you think those club house oaths really mean something.

They do mean quite a bit. Trust, loyalty, support, good council. The secrecy thing is just a minor bit... if you can't see past that, then you're missing the big picture.

Pike wrote the purpose is to decieve the new canidate. Next pitiful reply.

So, wait... every mason on here is a liar, you claim... but one mason from long ago writes a book that the general public can read, and he's 'telling the truth'? Make up your mind.

Yeah Washington a slave owner. Never thought it was a mistake till he was much older. Real nice.

Okay, and...? So what? It was a different time. It wasn't considered wrong.

He DID, however, decide it was wrong - contrary to social standards of the time.

Newton yeah another great man

Okay, first off, that link is utter trash.

But more importantly, it doesn't actually say anything negative about Newton. So what is your point?

Keep up the masonic spin. This is great. And yes masonry is really wrong.

Okay, chief... if you say so.

Tell your girlfriend everything and I mean everything that goes in the lodge. The secret cerimonies everything
You can't and you won't because again you actually think those oaths have bearing over your life.

My girlfriend really wouldn't be interested.

My wife, on the other hand, has read our ritual book cover to cover. She's asked me what some things mean, I've told her. She's been to a 'public degree', an installation, and a funereal.

And you know what? I've not had to break my oaths to do so. The 'secret stuff' is inconsequential. We don't have 'secret ceremonies' or anything like that.

There is no reason to break that portion of my oath. It wouldn't add anything to the conversation.

I think you need to drop the lambskin apron wipe the fish fry grease off your face, and think for yourself.

Think for ourselves... you don't think it's possible that we are doing just that? You're the one cutting and pasting from various sites all over the net...

It's not my fault you were "hoodwinked into thinking those oaths mean anything outside the lodge.

An oath means something anywhere the bearer is willing to take it.

For instance, take the baptismal oath for Christians. It's obvious it has little bearing on your life, outside of church.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 05:01 PM
I have just as much right to be here as anyone else Hobbes. So go swell your chest to someone else. So now it's religious tolerance that gets people to heaven...
So another mason lie by Hobbes,"Religious Tolerance gets you to heaven." I do have the right to say something is wrong or something I do not agree with.
Revelation 14:6-7 tells us the message of the everlasting gospel--"Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and WORSHIP HIM that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters." There is only one way to do this--through the blood of Jesus Christ. REPENT ye and BELIEVE the gospel!

The Bible says that nobody is good enough to get into heaven. Each one of us has broken God's commandments--not one person is excepted. You have personally lied and committed other sins.

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God. (Romans 3:23)

[L]et God be true, but every man a liar...( Romans 3:4)

I don't care how much "good" stuff you do, you still can't go to heaven. You are dead in tresspasses and sins. Your good deeds do not commend you to God in any way. You've ignored Him chosing to live life the way YOU see fit.

It's not by good works that you get heaven.

The Holy Bible is the word of God. It is the only way that we know about the Lord Jesus Christ. In the Bible, God testifies that Jesus Christ died for your sins and was buried; and that He rose from the dead on the third day. You must believe and confess this in order to be saved.

[I]f thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, THOU SHALT BE SAVED. (Romans 10:9)

It is your choice to believe or not to believe. But I do have the right to say I don't agree with something. And yes I don't agree with masonry. I have not made fun of anyones name in a while. But if you must go tell the moderator.

And Hobbes nice language about kicking someone in the backside. Nice benevolent language. I understand that masons panter to all religions, bow to pagan gods, take oaths that are vile and violent, to keep secrets
, hide behind charity work, and lie. The secrecy thing is huge. You lie on purpose to confuse not to share the experience. The big picture is masonry is anti christian.

The authors Pike and Hall have said exactly what masonry is. You subordinate masons try to lie about what the authors have stated. It's nice to know that Washington beat blacks, split famlies, and work small children in hot fields. Boy that's someone I would model my life after
So if slavery was still around yet you would support it. I could careless if it was a long time ago. It still happend I suppose you feel it was all right because he was a mason.

The oaths are so secret that you can't tell your wife what's going on. That's cool the person you have been married to you can't tell here everything that says much about you. "Honey you are my wife but I can't tell you what's going on at the lodge." Impressive real impressive.
It's nice to know that you keep secrets from the one you love the most.

The oath is a pure joke. My baptism didn't have such vile words as cutting of a throat, burning my entrails, and exposing my dead body in the sun for 8 hrs. The oath means you have sold your soul, and for what? A few new handshakes and few new passwords. It's time to give the club house stuff up you are an adult. And I think for myself just fine. I just agree with what is pasted. Next your going to tell us your real hero was Henry Ford.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 05:12 PM
The real meaning of the Hiram Abiff ritual. The masonic Jesus Christ.

Who is Hiram Abiff?
If the song leaders across the country were to stand on the platforms on Sunday morning and ask the members of the church, "Who was killed, buried and raised from the grave?", the majority of members would immediately respond with the name Jesus. A few might also remember the name Lazarus, whom Jesus raised from the dead. Yet, they would remember that Lazarus simply died; he was not killed. In a significant number of churches, the name Hiram Abiff, the son of a widow of the tribe of Naphtali, would come into the consciousness of some of the male members. In some churches, the question would cause even the pastor to think of Hiram. Although these men know that the name Hiram Abiff would be considered a valid answer to the question by other men with whom they privately associate in Masonic Lodges, they would be reluctant to mention the name of Hiram in church. Certainly, they would not explain the Masonic teaching they have embraced concerning the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram. That would cause others to doubt their Christianity.

The death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ is the essence of the Gospel. The Scriptural account of the Gospel is stated most succinctly by Paul:

Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain. For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve.

1 Corinthians 15:1-5

The Scriptures reveal that Jesus died a brutal death as the result of being crucified at a place called Golgotha:

They came to a place called Golgotha (which means The Place of the Skull). There they offered Jesus wine to drink, mixed with gall; but after tasting it, he refused to drink it. When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots.

Matt 27:33-35

Before Jesus was killed, he was struck multiple times. Mark clearly states that fact:

Wanting to satisfy the crowd, Pilate released Barabbas to them. He had Jesus flogged, and handed him over to be crucified.

Mark 15:15

Hiram Abiff and the Scriptures
The name Hiram Abiff is not found in Scripture. Yet, the Masonic account of Hiram is often said to be based upon the Holy Bible. In the Master Mason degree, in that portion of the ritual known as the Legend of the Third Degree, there are three central characters. The story line is set around the building of Solomon’s temple. The characters, King Solomon, Hiram - the King of Tyre and Hiram Abiff are all taken from the Scriptural account of the temple building. King Solomon and Hiram King of Tyre are mentioned many times in the Scriptures, such as in 1 Kings 5. About the closest the Scriptures come to Hiram Abiff is Huram-Abi which is found in 2 Chronicles 2:13 in the NAS and NIV translations. Huram is a variant of Hiram. In the KJV translation of the verse, the name Hiram is found. The KJV uses both Huram (2 Chron 2:3) and Hiram (1 Kings 5) to identify Hiram the King of Tyre. The KJV translation of 2 Chron 2:13 does not contain -abi, but rather "Huram my father’s." The Hebrew word from which the KJV "father’s" was translated is "‘ab," according to the Hebrew Dictionary found in Strong’s Concordance. Strong’s entry for the word ‘ab (H1) indicates that it can also mean father-less, as the son of a widow would be. The entry for H1 also mentions "Abi-." Studying the various translations along with a Hebrew dictionary allows us to see how Freemasonry may have settled on the name Hiram Abi-ff, also sometimes spelled Abif.

Hiram King of Tyre wrote a letter to King Solomon, advising him that he was sending Huram-Abi to work on the temple. That letter is documented in 2 Chron 2:11-14. The fact that Hiram-Abi was the son of a widow of the tribe of Naphtali is confirmed in Scripture:

King Solomon sent to Tyre and brought Huram, whose mother was a widow from the tribe of Naphtali and whose father was a man of Tyre and a craftsman in bronze. Huram was highly skilled and experienced in all kinds of bronze work. He came to King Solomon and did all the work assigned to him.

1 Kings 7:13-14

Although the most important element of Masonic symbolism deals with the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff, there is nothing in Scripture to support it. Masonic Grand Lodges have stated that the account is not based upon fact, but rather is an allegory, used to teach.

Hiram Abiff in Masonic Ritual
During the Legend of the Third Degree, the candidate portrays Hiram Abiff in the ritual. He is blindfolded and led through the ritual by a conductor. In Masonic ritual, Hiram Abiff is not a worker of brass as in Scripture, but rather the Grand Master at the building of Solomon’s temple. Each day, he lays out the work for the workmen to complete. There are Fellowcrafts who work on the temple who are to be given the secrets of a Master Mason as compensation - when the temple is completed. Once they have the secrets of a Master Mason they will earn the wages of a Master. A group of fifteen Fellowcrafts decide that they do not want to wait until the work is completed. They form a plot which only three of them carry through. The three "ruffians" sequentially accost Hiram at the East gate, the South gate and the West gate. A similar dialog occurs at each temple entrance. The ruffian demands the secrets of a Master Mason. Hiram explains that this is neither the time, nor the place; the secrets can only be revealed in the presence of three, King Solomon, Hiram the King of Tyre and myself. The ruffian demands, "Your life, or the secrets." Hiram responds, "My life you can have, my integrity - never." When they fail to get what they want, they strike Hiram with one of the working tools and he staggers to the next gate and the next encounter. The third ruffian is also unable to extract the secrets from Hiram Abiff. He strikes Hiram on the head with a setting maul and kills him. Hiram willingly laid down his life rather than betray his trust.

The ruffians have not achieved their goal and they have a body to dispose of. They bury the body in temple rubble and plan to return at midnight to give the body a more decent burial. At midnight, they return and carry the body to a hill west of Mt. Moriah, where Hiram Abiff is reburied. The next day, Hiram is nowhere to be found. A search is conducted. The Fellowcrafts who did not go through with the conspiracy confess the plot. A grave is found; the body of Hiram is found within it. Hiram Abiff has been in the grave for 15 days. King Solomon gives the order for the body to be raised using the grips of the Entered Apprentice and then the Fellowcraft. Those efforts are unsuccessful. King Solomon states that he fears that with the death of Hiram Abiff the word of a Master Mason has been lost. Therefore, the first word spoken after Hiram is raised from the grave will be the substitute until the lost word can be recovered. At that point, King Solomon raises Hiram Abiff from "a dead level to a living perpendicular" using the real grip of a Master Mason, also known as the Lion’s Paw. He embraces Hiram on the five points of fellowship, standing foot to foot, knee to knee, breast to breast, hand to back and mouth to ear. King Solomon, played by the Worshipful Master, then whispers the substitute for the lost word in Hiram’s ear. That word is Ma-Ha-Bone. Following the Master Mason Lecture, the following words are spoken:

Then, finally my brethren, let us imitate our Grand Master, Hiram Abiff, in his virtuous conduct, his unfeigned piety to God, and his inflexible fidelity to his trust; that, like him, we may welcome the grim tyrant, Death, and receive him as a kind messenger sent by our Supreme Grand Master, to translate us from this imperfect to that all-perfect, glorious, and celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides.

When this conclusion to the ritual is reread carefully, breaking it down phrase by phrase, it is easy to see that what it actually says is that, "Masonic brethren should imitate Hiram Abif to get into heaven." Notice that Freemasonry does not urge Freemasons to have faith in Hiram Abiff. When the words from the ritual are analyzed carefully, it is clear that Freemasonry is substituting imitation for faith and Hiram for Jesus - as the means to gaining entry into heaven, following death.

Certainly a Christian who is fluent in English and understands what salvation is will interpret these words as a plan of salvation. Many, many Masons who claim to be Christians take issue with this interpretation and flatly deny that Freemasonry has a plan of salvation. What do the Grand Lodges say? Consider these words from the monitor distributed to Master Masons by the Grand Lodge of South Carolina:

It was the single object of all the ancient rites and mysteries practiced in the very bosom of pagan darkness. . .to teach the immortality of the soul. This is still the great design of the third degree of Masonry. This is the scope and aim of its ritual. The Master Mason represents man, when youth, manhood, old age, and life itself have passed away as fleeting shadows, yet raised from the grave of iniquity, and quickened into another and better existence. By its legend and all its ritual, it is implied that we have been redeemed from the death of sin and the sepulchre of pollution. . . .and the conclusion we arrive at is, that youth, properly directed, leads us to honorable and virtuous maturity, and that the life of man, regulated by morality, faith, and justice, will be rewarded at its closing hour by the prospect of eternal bliss. . . The important design of the degree is to symbolize the great doctrines of the resurrection of the body and the immortality of the soul; and hence it has been remarked by a learned writer of our Order, that the Master Mason represents a man saved from the grave of iniquity, and raised to the faith of salvation.

Ahiman Rezon or Book of Constitutions, pp. 141-2, 1965 ed.

These words are found in the monitors of many states including Indiana, Montana, Nebraska, Nevada, and the District of Columbia, to name a few. All other Grand Lodge monitors which do not contain this text contain enough other material to prove that they too teach salvation without Jesus. Additionally, in virtually all monitors we have examined, they actually have a prayer which asks for salvation. Clearly the words of those Masons who deny that Freemasonry has a plan of salvation do not agree with the interpretation of the teachings of ritual offered by Grand Lodges. Since the Grand Lodges are the acknowledged authorities of Freemasonry, those individual Masons who claim that Freemasonry has no plan of salvation are making claims which many of them know are untrue.

Was Hiram resurrected, or reburied?
In Masonic ritual, Hiram Abiff is raised from a "dead level" to a "living perpendicular." Quite a number of Masons have claimed that Hiram Abiff was not resurrected from the grave near Mt. Moriah, but rather his body was exhumed and reburied in the temple. Why would they make that claim? There are several reasons. First, the ritual actually does state that Hiram was to be reburied within the temple. However, it does not happen in ritual. Hiram was first buried in temple rubble. Then, his body was moved and he was reburied on a hill west of Mt. Moriah. He was raised to "a living perpendicular," or resurrected, from that second grave. Hiram was physically reburied in ritual, but the reburial preceded resurrection.

The portion of the ritual lecture which deals with reburial in many states contains built-in conflicts which make physical reburial within the temple an impossible interpretation. The purpose of these built-in conflicts is to indicate that there is another, deeper, meaning within ritual - yet to be discovered. If a man carefully considers what is actually taught, he will know that physical reburial is not a valid interpretation. Some Grand Lodges have placed explanations in their monitors to allow the thinking Mason to know that physical reburial is impossible, for one reason, or another. Still, other Grand Lodges have placed explanatory text in their monitors which directly states that resurrection is the actual teaching contained in the ritual. Examples of each will be provided.

In the Nevada Master Mason ritual (may be downloaded from our website) we find the following:

They carried the body to the Temple and buried it in due form, and Masonic tradition informs us that a monument was erected to his memory, on which was delineated a beautiful Virgin weeping over a broken column; before her lay a book, open; in her right hand a sprig of acacia; in her left, an urn; and behind her stood Time with his fingers unfolding and counting the ringlets of her hair. The broken column denotes the untimely death of our Grand Master Hiram Abif; the beautiful Virgin; weeping, denotes the Temple, unfinished; the book open before her, that his virtues there lie on perpetual record; the sprig of acacia in her right hand, the timely discovery of his body; the urn in her left, that his ashes were there safely deposited to perpetuate the remembrance of so distinguished a character; . . .

Nevada Ritual, Master Mason, p. 23 - left col, lines 1-18

Some time back, I worked with a Past Master who firmly denied the resurrection of Hiram. This glaring inconsistency - reburial and then cremation - in the ritual was brought to his attention. He remembered the words, having heard them many times, but he had not thought about what was actually said. When he read and analyzed the ritual, he was forced to admit that physical reburial did not make sense. They would not have buried Hiram in the temple, only to dig him back up and then cremate the body. Later, he found documents from his Lodge which clearly taught resurrection. He turned out to be an honest man in whom the Holy Spirit was working. He is no longer a Mason.

The cremation - reburial conflict is apparent in several monitors. There is a widely used drawing of a weeping virgin leaning over a broken column. Father Time is standing behind her holding a scythe. She is holding a small urn in her hand. The text describing it states the following:

The weeping virgin denotes the unfinished state of the Temple; the broken column, that one of the principal supports of Masonry had fallen in the death of our G. M. H. A.; . . . the urn, that his ashes were safely deposited to perpetuate the memory of so distinguished a character;

Kentucky Monitor, p.140, 19th ed.

Text found in Ahiman Rezon, or Book of Constitutions provided by the Grand Lodge of South Carolina explains that reburial within the temple could not have occurred, based upon Jewish law:

The Mosaic law which related to defilement by dead bodies, rendered it necessary that none should be buried near sacred places, nor even within the limits of cities, except in the case of kings and very distinguished men. The strictness of the religious code against pollution would, however, forbid that even these should be interred in the neighborhood of a temple or sanctuary.

Ahiman Rezon, 1965, p. 152

Parallels between Hiram Abiff and Jesus Christ are well developed in the monitor published by the Grand Lodge of Nebraska. They want to make certain that the Master Mason will realize that both Jesus Christ and Hiram Abiff were killed, buried and resurrected. They call attention to the "peculiar symbolism" and what it must suggest.

The small hill near Mount Moriah can be clearly identified by the most convincing analogies as being no other than Mount Calvary. Thus Mount Calvary was a small hill; it was situated west from the Temple, and near Mount Moriah; it was on the direct road from Jerusalem to Joppa, and is thus the very spot where a weary brother, traveling on that road, would find it convenient to sit down to rest and refresh himself; it was outside of the gate of the Temple, and lastly, there are several caves, or clefts in the rocks, in the neighborhood, one of which, it will be remembered, was, subsequently to the time of this tradition, used as the sepulchre of our Lord. The Master Mason will readily perceive the peculiar character of the symbolism which this identification of the spot on which the great truth of the resurrection was unfolded in both systems, the Masonic and the Christian, must suggest.

Nebraska Monitor & Ceremonies, 1962, p. 54.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 05:13 PM
Yet another Grand Lodge explains that the temple is not physical in nature in the symbolic teaching of the Master Mason Degree. That being the case, physical reburial of his body within that spiritual temple would be impossible. They allude to a deeper meaning within the allegory.

For instance, in the first two degrees, the Lodge symbolizes the world, the place where all workmen labor at useful vocations . . . But in the Master’s degree it represents the Sanctum Sanctorum, or Holy of Holies of King Solomon’s Temple, which was itself a symbol of Heaven, or the abode of Deity. It was there that nothing earthly or unclean was allowed to enter. . . "But there is even a deeper symbolism in the Master’s lodge. The allusion is not only to the sacred chamber of Solomon’s physical temple, it alludes also to the sacred chamber of that spiritual temple we all are, or should be. . .

Indiana Monitor & Freemason’s Guide, 1993, p. 155.

Is it possible that the rituals of some Grand Lodges teach resurrection, while others actually do teach physical reburial? A number of Grand Lodges have gone out of their way to state that there are no significant differences in the ritual portrayal of the Legend of the Third Degree in any jurisdiction anywhere in the world. Reburial, rather than resurrection, would change the meaning of ritual drastically. Consider the words found in the monitor for Texas as one example:

The legend of the third degree has been considered of so much importance that it has been preserved in the symbolism of every Masonic rite. It embodies the symbolic lesson of life, death and immortality.

No matter what modifications or alterations the general system may have suffered--no matter how much the ingenuity or the imagination of the founders of rites may have perverted or corrupted other symbols, abolishing the old, and substituting new ones--the legend of the Temple Builder has ever been left untouched, to present itself in all the integrity of its ancient mythical form.

Monitor of the Lodge, (Texas), 1982, p.78

There is another, more significant reason why many Masons deny that the resurrection of Hiram is the only valid interpretation of Masonic ritual. For those Masons who want to believe that they are Christians, the difficulty is obvious. If they admit that they have been meeting in secret to reenact the death, burial and resurrection of Hiram Abiff, it will be unlikely that other Christians will accept them as a brother in Christ. If they themselves understand the Gospel, the obvious mockery of it would be a source of conflict in the minds of any of them who are even nominal Christians. Barring repentance, denial is a necessity for these men. To acknowledge resurrection as the teaching of ritual and then remain involved in Freemasonry would mean admitting, at least to themselves, that they are not genuine Christians. Does being in denial make them Christians in God’s sight? Consider Matthew 7:21-23 and Matthew 28:18-20.

Hiram Abiff - the Masonic Savior?
The Grand Lodge of Kentucky provides unmistakable evidence that Freemasonry teaches, not only that there are many different saviors for various peoples, but that Hiram Abif is considered a savior for Freemasons. The context is a discussion of various world religions.

All believed in a future life, to be attained by purification and trials; in a state or successive states of reward and punishment; and in a Mediator or Redeemer, by whom the Evil Principle was to be overcome and the Supreme Deity reconciled to His creatures. The belief was general that He was to be born of a virgin and suffer a painful death. The Hindus called him Krishna; the Chinese, Kioun-tse; the Persians, Sosiosch; the Chaldeans, Dhouvanai; the Egyptians, Horus; Plato, Love; the Scandinavians, Balder; the Christians, Jesus; Masons, Hiram. It is interesting that the "small hill west of Mount Moriah" has been identified as Golgotha, or Mount Calvary.

Kentucky Monitor, pp. XIV-XV, 5th-15th editions.

Masonry teaches that Jesus is not unique. Notice the parallel sentence structure: Hindus - Krishna, . . Christians - Jesus, Masons - Hiram. They clearly are teaching that Krishna is a savior for Hindus, Jesus is a savior for Christians and Hiram Abiff is a savior for Masons. The teaching that Hiram is the Masonic savior is found in more than a few books distributed throughout the Masonic system. Consider the words of Masonic author, Lynn Perkins:

Therefore Masonry teaches that redemption and salvation are both the power and the responsibility of the individual Mason. Saviors like Hiram Abiff can and do show the way, but men must always follow and demonstrate, each for himself, his power to save himself, to build his own spiritual fabric in his own time and way. Every man in essence is his own savior and redeemer; for if he does not save himself, he will not be saved. The reader who succeeds in getting back to the real teachings of the masters, including Jesus of Nazareth, will find unanimity of thinking on this matter.

The Meaning of Masonry, p. 95

How will Masons get into heaven?
A number of Masonic Grand Lodges have distributed educational material to new members which explains how they will gain entry into heaven. The name Jesus Christ is never mentioned. Consider these words found in the monitors of Kansas, Wisconsin and the Grand Lodge of Oklahoma:

Let all the energies of our minds and the affections of our souls be employed in the attainment of our Supreme Grand Master’s approbation, that when the hour of our dissolution draws nigh and the cold winds of death come sighing around us, and his chill dew glistens on our foreheads, may we with joy obey the summons of the Grand Warden of Heaven and go from our labors here on earth to everlasting refreshment in the Paradise of God, where, by the benefit of a pass, a pure life, and a firm reliance on Divine Providence, we shall gain a ready admission into the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides, where seated at the right hand of our Supreme Grand master, he will be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons.

Murrow Masonic Monitor and Ceremonies (Oklahoma), 1997, p.90

Other Grand Lodge monitors contain similar text which contains a phrase which may have caused some Masons to mistakenly believe that Freemasonry lifts up Jesus Christ as the way to salvation. Notice the phrase - Lion of the tribe of Judah - and how it is used.

With the trowel spread liberally the cement of brotherly love; circumscribed by the compasses, let us ponder well our words and actions, and let all the energies of our minds and the affections of our souls be employed in the attainment of our Supreme Grand Master’s approbation. Then, when our dissolution draws nigh, and the cold winds of death come sighing around us, and his chill dews already glisten upon our foreheads, with joy shall we obey the summons of the grand warden of Heaven and go from our labors on earth to eternal refreshment in the paradise of God, where, by the benefit of the pass of a pure and blameless life and an unshaken confidence in the merits of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, shall we gain ready admission into the celestial lodge where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides; there, placed at His right hand, He will be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons. Then, my brethren . . all the soul shall experience shall be perfect bliss, and all it shall express shall be perfect praise. . .

The Official Monitor (Illinois) 1962, pp. 77-78

The Official Monitor is distributed by the Grand Lodge of Illinois to Masons who are Jews, Moslems, Hindus, men who have no faith other than in a Supreme Being, as well as men who claim to be Christians. How would each of these groups of men interpret this text? Notice that it clearly states that they will gain entry into heaven. This teaching is applied to all Masons, not just those who claim to be Christians. Therefore, Jesus Christ cannot be the common denominator. Notice that they speak of the Lion of the tribe of Judah, but they do not define the term in the monitor. One who attempts to interpret the text from a Christian paradigm would likely equate the Lion of the tribe of Judah to Jesus Christ. He would be misled by attempting to interpret Freemasonry using a non-Masonic paradigm. As will become clear, Freemasonry embraces a different meaning of the phrase. Consider the words found in a Grand Lodge training manual produced to guide those who would nurture new Master Masons in the ways of Masonic "light." The explanation includes statements that there are other mediators between God and man.

The lion, from the earliest times of recorded history, has been a symbol of might and royalty. It was placed on the standard of the Tribe of Judah because it was the royal tribe of the Hebrew Nation. The Kings of Judah were, therefore, called the Lion of the Tribe of Judah. This was one of the titles of King Solomon. This is the literal meaning of the term, but it also has a symbolic one. The Jewish idea of the Messiah was that of a mighty temporal king. He was designated the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, for it was from this tribe that all rulers came. The expression does not, of necessity, refer to Jesus of Nazareth, though the Christian Mason may so interpret the name if he desires. The Lion of the Tribe of Judah also describes the Messiah of the Jewish Mason or the mediator of some of the ancient religions of the East whose worshippers are Masons. Freedom of choice as to the application of these symbols is one of the reasons for the growth of Freemasonry over the centuries.

Mentor's Manual (Florida), page 24.

The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania is currently circulating a book by Oliver Day Street titled, Symbolism of the Three Degrees. The stated purpose for circulating the book is for education and enlightenment. Circulation of their copies are limited to Pennsylvania Masons only. Quite a number of other Grand Lodges, including some Canadian Grand Lodges, also recommend the book to their members. We have copies of the book which were reprinted specifically for the Grand Lodges of other states. Those special reprints, in three separate volumes, are used to educate new Masons as they progress through the Entered Apprentice, Fellowcraft and Master Mason degrees of the Blue Lodge. A passage in the book closely parallels the words found in the Florida Mentor’s Manual. Several statements are made concerning the existence of multiple mediators between God and man, as well as other redeemers:

The lion from most ancient times has been a symbol of might or royalty. It was blazoned upon the standard of the tribe of Judah, because it was the royal tribe. The kings of Judah were, therefore, each called Lion of the Tribe of Judah, and such was one of the titles of Solomon. Remembrance of this fact gives appropriateness to an expression employed at one point in our ceremonies which is otherwise obscure, not to say absurd. Such is the literal meaning of this phrase, but it also has a symbolical one. The Jewish idea of a Messiah was of a mighty temporal king. He was also designated as the Lion of the Tribe of Judah; in fact this title was regarded as peculiarly belonging to him. This expression does not, as many Masons suppose, necessarily have a reference to Jesus of Nazareth. The Christian Mason is privileged so to interpret it, if he likes, but the Jew has equal right to understand it as meaning his Messiah. Indeed, every great religion of the world has contained the conception in some form of a Mediator between God and man, a Redeemer who would raise mankind from the death of this life and the grave to an everlasting existence with God hereafter. The Mason who is a devotee of one of these religions, say, Buddhism, Brahmanism or Mohammedanism, is likewise entitled to construe this expression as referring to his own Mediator.

Symbolism of the Three Degrees, pp. 154-155

Other books currently being circulated by the Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania and recommended by other Grand Lodges contain the teaching that there are various world saviors. Masonic author George Steinmetz explains exactly what the word "savior" means within the Masonic paradigm. The text is contained in a chapter titled, The Messiah Concept:

There have been numerous prototypes of the perfect man, forerunners of the perfected race which is to come. In some way, for some unexplainable reason, these prototypes came to be looked upon as "Saviors" rather than EXAMPLES."

The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning, p. 124

It is of course true they are "saviors" in the sense that they exemplify what man CAN BE and what he is to BECOME, but they do not so much "save men" as to point the way to "salvation."

The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning, p. 124-5

We may discover why brief but glorious glimpses of what MAN MAY BE have been vouchsafed by such saviors as Osiris, Krishna, Jesus and Hiram.

The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning, p. 158

The reason that Freemasonry admonishes its new members to imitate Hiram to get into heaven is that it considers Hiram to be an example showing the way to salvation. Freemasonry teaches that each man is his own savior; it does not embrace the Christian teaching of substitutionary atonement. Freemasonry teaches that Hiram and other saviors save only themselves. By imitating Hiram, following his example, Freemasonry teaches that Masons may save themselves.

The resurrection of Hiram is also taught by The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania through the use of The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning and other Masonic books they circulate which contain similar teachings. The Grand Lodge of Pennsylvania uses the book to draw a parallel between Hiram and Jesus, just as some other Grand Lodges do in their monitors.

Hiram, like Jesus, is subjected to three temptations which he withstands. He, like all the other saviors, loses his life in the contest between Right and the Principle of Evil. He lies buried fifteen days in contrast to the three days Jesus is said to have been in the tomb. The manner of his resurrection is dramatically different from all the others. Here, in fact, is a more enlightening example of resurrection than in any of the savior legends.

The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning, p. 156

The Masonic view of Jesus Christ
We could infer the position which Freemasonry takes with regard to Jesus Christ, but the Grand Lodges use Masonic literature to make that unnecessary. So that Masons will not misunderstand, the Masonic position on the Son of God has been explained in no uncertain terms:

Masonry is UNIVERSAL and recognizes no CREEDS, taking truth wherever it is found. That Jesus, the man, lived is conceded by even a vast majority of non-Christian creeds, the Jew acknowledges him to have been a Great Teacher. Some Christian creeds declare him to have been "conceived by the Holy Ghost, born of the Virgin Mary," others refuse this dogma, attribute to him no supernatural birth and claim he "achieved Christ-hood." Occult teaching largely agrees with this latter thesis and points to him as a "prototype" of the perfect man - the goal toward which the ENTIRE HUMAN RACE is evolving. We are here referring to the Master strictly in that sense - one who has Mastered himself in the fullest sense of the expression.

The Lost Word Its Hidden Meaning, p. 74

Obviously, the heretical teaching that Jesus Christ is NOT the only mediator between God and man (1 Timothy 2:5), that he is NOT the only redeemer and savior (John 14:6), and that the name of Jesus is NOT the only name whereby men may be saved (Acts 4:12) is current Masonic teaching. This heresy is not limited to an outdated edition of the Kentucky Monitor, as some "Christian" Masons have tried to claim. It is widespread, mainstream, Masonic teaching. All a Mason has to do to uncover it is dig around in the lodge library.

If you are a Mason who claims to be a Christian, you have a simple choice to make:

You can stand with the church and defend the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

You can stand with the Lodge and defend a false plan of salvation which is based upon the imitation of Hiram Abiff.

Your choice will determine where you spend eternity.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 05:17 PM
The Hiram Abiff ritual is a total mockery of Jesus. It's really nice to know that such a good brotherhood is making fun of Jesus.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 05:53 PM

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
The Hiram Abiff ritual is a total mockery of Jesus. It's really nice to know that such a good brotherhood is making fun of Jesus.

Dude, you're always saying "it's nice to know" in reference to some really negative stuff that you've "gleaned" from innocuous statements, like you did in reference to Hobbes' wife... What does that say about you? You seem to take a special kind of malevolent glee in twisting things to suit your agenda.

That's pretty sick, man.

You should check out the Ephesians 5-11 forum. They're your kind of people (that is, as long as you continue to ascribe to their particular brand of "Christianity"...). Also, similarly to you, they're not afraid to tell some lies in order to promote the Good News of Jesus Christ. I guess you;'ve gotta break a few eggs to make an omelette, eh Andy.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 06:35 PM
I never said nothing negative about his wife. As far as ex-masons for Jesus goes, say what you want but they are dead on about freemasonry. It's amazing how the truth really gets the masons. It's Really, really, really, really nice how you keep trying to get me kicked off or in trouble with the moderators. Keep trying to bait me into a fight. It will take you forever. Never ceases to amaze me how some folks who apparently don't know God will nevertheless try to quote Him and assume they know what they are talking about. Based on the twisted context in which you have stated the above, I suggest that you vacate the glass house you now reside in (Freemasonry), before you throw any more rocks. You might bode well to try recalling some of what was taught to you the night you were baptized into the religion of Freemasonry when you heard this explanation of "cheek to cheek, or mouth to ear" (You do remember the 5 points of fellowship, don't you?): ". .that we should be ever ready to whisper wise counsel in the ear of an erring Brother, and warn him of approaching danger." Maybe you could explain to us how you go about deeming a "Brother" to be erring, if it isn't by judging that something he is doing is wrong?
Really, Really, Really, and I mean really nice.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 08:13 PM

Let me provide an example of Masonic ritual which speaks directly to the issue of salvation:

Let all the energies of our minds and the affections of our souls be employed in the attainment of our Supreme Grand Master’s approbation, that when the hour of our dissolution draws nigh and the cold winds of death come sighing around us, and his chill dew glistens on our foreheads, may we with joy obey the summons of the Grand Warden of Heaven and go from our labors here on earth to everlasting refreshment in the Paradise of God, where, by the benefit of a pass, a pure life, and a firm reliance on Divine Providence, we shall gain a ready admission into the Celestial Lodge above, where the Supreme Architect of the Universe presides, where seated at the right hand of our Supreme Grand master, he will be pleased to pronounce us just and upright Masons. Murrow Masonic Monitor and Ceremonies (Oklahoma), 1997, p.90

Notice that this teaching, which is found in the monitors of other Grand Lodges as well, is applied to all Masons who are assembled. It is not restricted to so-called Christian Masons alone, but includes Jewish Masons as well as Masons of other religions that deny the truth found within John 14:6. Jesus is not the common denominator in this example of Masonic teaching which deals directly with salvation. Masons will gain entry by the benefit of a pass, a pure life, and Divine Providence, according to Masonic teaching. This is an example of Masonic Heresy which any mature Christian would identify as such. The source documents, with a page of context on each side of the quote, are supplied at so that the public will be able to verify the facts. This single example exposes the character of your denial that the teachings of Freemasonry contain heresy.
Larry Kunk

This is from a pro masonic publication. And yet again masonry has it own form of salvation.

[edit on 8-3-2007 by Andy Warhol]

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 08:43 PM
After reading the post lately (and before) .. these people are not Christian at all. If they claim to be Christian, they are lieing to them selves.

Unless people like you represent Christ's true motives.
In that case I wouldn't worship him or any other god who acted like that.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 08:48 PM

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
I never said nothing negative about his wife. As far as ex-masons for Jesus goes, say what you want but they are dead on about freemasonry. It's amazing how the truth really gets the masons. It's Really, really, really, really nice how you keep trying to get me kicked off or in trouble with the moderators. Keep trying to bait me into a fight.

Liar. You said it was "nice" that he deceived her about about Freemasonry when he stated the exact opposite. Another example of you twisting the truth into lies (and not even in a subtle way!) to serve your agenda.

I'm not trying to get you kicked off at all. I've never stated such a purpose. I think you're just having one of your paranoid "episodes" in which you think this is all some kind of epic supernatural battle and that you're battling for Christ.

I'm just astounded that you even pretend to embrace the values that Christ taught when your lies are plain for all to see (Remember? Mazzini, Pike, the Taxil hoax).

Originally posted by Andy WarholNever ceases to amaze me how some folks who apparently don't know God will nevertheless try to quote Him and assume they know what they are talking about.

...and there's the giveaway.

apparently, only YOU speak for God and know His purpose in this discussion. Are you some kind of supernatural crusader? ("God wills it!"

Yes, the Crusades, the Inquisition, the Protestant church in Ireland... all of these grand institutions have shown us how it is "God's will" that certain groups are persecuted out of ignorance and insecurity. Your breed of fundamentalism is simply ANOTHER ill-thought replication of the same mindset. "Holy warriors", intepreting God for the masses and persecuting in His name...

See, I know your type. Your close-minded zealotry is distasteful, and comes across as a tragic picture of a man whistling loudly in the graveyard of his own uncertainty...

But don't let me stop you spreading the Love of Christ. Onward!

[edit on 8-3-2007 by Roark]

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:08 PM
The oaths are so secret that you can't tell your wife what's going on. That's cool the person you have been married to you can't tell here everything that says much about you. "Honey you are my wife but I can't tell you what's going on at the lodge." Impressive real impressive. It's nice to know that you keep secrets from the one you love the most.

That's what I said. It states that he's keeping secerets from the one you love the most. When you can't tell a loved one what's going on somethings wrong their. My girlfriend has every right to know what's going on in my life, everything.

one places a curse over themselves; like in the oath of a master mason:
"To all of which I do solemnly and sincerely
promise and swear, without any hesitation, mental reservation, or secret evasion of mind in me
whatsoever; binding myself under no less a
penalty than that of having my body severed in
twain, my bowels taken thence, and with my body
burned to ashes, and the ashes thereof scattered
to the four winds of Heaven, that there might
remain neither track, trace nor remembrance
among man or Masons of so vile and perjured a
wretch as I should be, should I ever knowingly or
willfully violate this, my solemn Obligation of a
Master Mason. So help me God and make me
steadfast to keep and perform the same."
Blessing covers curses.
I believe when one denounces the religion of freemasonry, repents and turns to Jesus, that it is ALSO important to place blessings over the curses. Curses are also often generational and spoken over a family/family line, it is important to realize that others may speak curses over us and to sufficiently cover ourselves.

This oath is nasty, evil, and wrong. It advocates violence and death.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:13 PM
...and you advocate stupidity, but no one's persecuting you in the name of an imaginary friend.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:19 PM
It is a several hundred year old preserved piece of history you idiot.

Would you rather us say "I promise I won't tell any one" and be done with it?

Apparently your ignorance fails to see the beauty in history, literature, and the practise of elaborate ceremonies.

Take a look at Christianity, you have many ceremonies and such that are ... different.. and if it where not "christian" would no doubt be seen as "satanic" .. like pouring or puting a child into "holy" water to "wash away sins" .. your just a biggot and prefer your life style over alternatives.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:24 PM
First I proved that Mazzini was a mason. Next Pike did say those things about masonry. He was speaking about masonry. He is a mason. There is no such thing as the Taxil Hoax.

See, I know your type. Your close-minded zealotry is distasteful, and comes across as a tragic picture of a man whistling loudly in the graveyard of his own uncertainty...

Wow looks like masonry has taught you much about tolerance.

You are correct in that I am firm in my belief that the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob - who has been revealed as Father, Son and Holy Spirit in Scritpure - is the only true God.

The Fatherhood of God, Brotherhood of man doctrine which Freemasons embrace holds that all men worship the same God, simply using a variety of different names. That is heresy. It is not what the Scriptures teach concerning other gods. Psalms 96:5 states, "For all the gods of the nations are idols: but the LORD made the heavens."

The Scriptures make it clear that the sacrifices of pagans are offered to demons, rather than to God. (See 1 Corinthians 10:19-21) Psalms 96:5 states that the gods of the nations are idols.

There are so many ways in which a Christian would compromise his witness if he were in your shoes. First, you have become yoked with unbelievers. That alone prevents you from legitimately claiming to be a child of God. 2 Corinthians 6:14-7:1 warns us not to be yoked with unbelievers. There is a conditional covenant in this passage. IF we remain separate, THEN He will make us His sons (and daughters). If we do not remain separate then we cannot claim the promise; God is not under obligation to make us His child.

You compromise your faith when you stand in agreement as the initiate portrays Hiram as he is killed, buried and raised from the grave. 1 Corinthians 15 states that Jesus was killed, buried and raised from the grave. The fact that you see no mockery in this makes it clear that the Spirit is not getting through to you.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:27 PM
Roark and Rockpunk thanks for those kind comments I really like to see that.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:28 PM
LOL omg.. your preaching "tolerance" ... now iv seen it all.

Hypocrisy, hypocrisy, hypocrisy..

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:36 PM
Hi, Rockpuck lets talk about this for a whil

. Here are a few for your consideration. Dr. Paul D. Feinberg, of Trinity Evangelical Divinity School, delivered a lecture in which he listed the six features which he says characterize a cult. Here they are, and information pertaining to Freemasonry about each of them:
1. "A break with, or a hostility toward at least one major or central tenet of historic Christianity":
Two central tenets of historic Christianity that every person claiming to be a Christian must adhere to, are 1. Jesus Christ truly is the Son of God; that He is indeed God Incarnate; and that His sacred personage is a very definitive part of the one True and Living God who is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit; and 2. The Holy Bible is indeed the Divine, Infallible and Inspired Word of God, which is to be believed and accepted in its entirety. Any attempt to minimize the infallibility of the Holy Bible is a debasement of the True and Living God and of His Written Word.
We need look no further than the writings of Henry Wilson Coil, the most often recommended Masonic authority of modern times. He tells us in 'Coil's Masonic Encyclopedia', ". .no responsible authority has held that a Freemason must believe the Bible or any part of it".

2. "Introduction of extra-Biblical sources of authority":
Albert Pike, who Ken has quoted from, has this to say in 'Morals and Dogma . .':
"Masonry is a search after Light. This search leads us directly, as you see, to the Kabalah."
"The Kabalah alone consecrates the alliance of the Universal Reason and the Divine Word; it alone reconciles Reason with Faith, Power with Liberty, Science with Mystery; it has the keys of the Present, the Past, and the Future."
"The Bible, with all the allegories it contains, expresses in an incomplete and veiled manner only, the religious science of the Hebrews. . ."The Pentateuch and the prophetic poems were merely elementary books of doctrine, morals, or liturgy."
"All the dogmatic religions have issued from the Kabalah and return to it; everything scientific and grand in the religious dreams of all the Illuminati, Jacob Boehme, Swedenborg, Saint-Martin, and others, is borrowed from the Kabalah; all the Masonic associations owe to it their Secrets and their Symbols."

3. "Denying grace alone for salvation":
Whether we are talking about the lambskin apron, the common gavel, the all-seeing eye, or any one of a number of Freemasonry's symbols, the story remains the same: Freemasonry teaches that a member's good works are his keys to the kingdom. Freemasonry not only denies grace alone for salvation, it ignores grace entirely.

4. "A devaluation of Christ":
Freemasonry's prayers are to a symbol they call the Great Architect Of The Universe, or variations thereof, and by Masonry's own definition, this symbol supposedly represents all gods of all mankind, giving equal credence not only to the only True and Living God, but also to Baal, Ra, Allah, Krishna, Vishnu, and any and every thing else imaginable or otherwise. At the absolute least, this is an abhorrent devaluation of the True and Living God.

5. "Seeing themselves as the true church, OR as being those who are genuinely saved because of their organization affiliation.":
From the Heirloom Masonic Bible: "By the practice of Freemasonry, its members may advance their spirituality, and mount by the theological ladder from the Lodge on earth to the Lodge in heaven; . ." Further, in Masonic burial services, several symbolisms are explained, stressing only Masonry's own universal application to any of them, and various prayers used as per burial ritual point to no other hope for a deceased member having arrived at heaven, than his Masonic affiliation(s).

6. "They usually have their own eschatology":
According to Masonic teachings, the Great White Throne Judgment is a time when Masons will appear before the "Judge Supreme", be judged by his deeds done while here on earth, and by his own merits will be welcomed into heaven.

I personally think Freemasonry comes equally close to being its own full-blown religion.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:39 PM

Originally posted by Andy Warhol
There is no such thing as the Taxil Hoax.

Everyone, please take note.

Andy, even anti-Masons concede that Leo Taxil was the instigator of a vast hoax at the Church's expense against Freemasonry. He admitted it, and explained in great detail how he orchestrated it.

The fact that you don't even know what it is demonstrates your ignorance of the topic.

I've had enough of your fundamentalist bigotry, misrepresentations, and outright lies.

You're a joke.

posted on Mar, 8 2007 @ 09:44 PM
Okay I'am a joke lets debate what I put up just before you replied. I could careless what the other anti's think. This is what I think. So lets debate what I posted just before your comment.

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