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Aliens. Abduction. What "rights" do we have?

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posted on Feb, 26 2007 @ 07:34 PM
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A lot of theories all seem to be centered around the fact that Earth is an independant planet and Humans are an independant species. What if it isn't?

Aliens. Abduction. What human rights do you think we have, and why?

What rights do we have, even outside of aliens and UFO's. For example, do we have a "right" to food, water, shelter and heat? The four basics required for survival. Isn't it only societal conditioning and our ego's makes us think we have these rights? Imagine you have been dropped on a planet unaware of any other being, human or otherwise. How would you claim your rights to these things? Who would be responsible to provide these things?

The meaning of life, where we came from... are the most important thoughts that we have toyed with since the first humans questioned their surroundings and pondered what it was all about. We can argue away about God, Religion and Evolution all we like. The fact remains that all are in the same category -IMO- as aliens and UFO's in terms of ALL of it is subject to doubt and scrutiny. Given a neutral stance on these issues, this line of thinking is equally valid. Perhaps by design, we aren't collectively supposed to figure it all out, only individually we can.

What if every single person on this planet was an abductee? What if we have mistakenly confused Gods and Aliens for millenia? i.e. our creator(s). Does a giver of life have the right to take it away? What control do you think we have over such a situation? Is religion the very tool to stop us asking such questions? Do we have a right to life in the first place? (Rhetoric questions but answer them if you like).

Whatever angle YOU come from, I would be grateful for your opinions and to gather some feedback on what you guys think about Human Rights regarding Aliens. All the above is to try and offer an alternative thought to the subject, but whatever your starting point, my question is this...

Aliens. Abduction. What human rights do you think we have, and why?




posted on Feb, 26 2007 @ 07:45 PM
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I believe in the end it is about survival, and what lengths man is willing to go to survive. Take animals. Elephants kick out sick elephants in their pack to avoid having predators get to the others. does the ostracized elephant understand these needs of life? yes, for he still attempts to stick with the group. It is a fact that animals will do what they need to survive. It has also been said that in emergencies ALL animals will rush and escape together in the same direction towards safety. where? who knows but their instincts to hunt and what seemingly is backstabbing dog eat dog world is not present when all sorts of animals of all types are rushing to safety. Is man above these traits\instincts. do we carry it into our daily lives in some sort of way, whether it is to call a taxi and it stop for you rather than the other who needs a cab? Office raises? What is our needs? Do we even know what our needs and necessities are? Is these needs of eating and drinking taken for granted? You are right to ask about what would happen when it is taken away?

Will that be a test? Will we find out what we need, or what we live in search of? What is this life? Is it a search or have we already found what we are looking for and continue to examine it throughout our lives?

Well this is my 2 cents. I hope it makes sense because it makes sense to live a life that is yours as it is your own and noone else's. Hope all is well and having a good day. stay warm and healthy!




[edit on 26-2-2007 by Minael2007]



posted on Feb, 27 2007 @ 06:36 AM
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Job
Ezekiel
Revelation

THAT is what it is about. And NO, to "them" we don't have any rights.

Would it not be interesting, in and of itself, were someone to "mathematically prove" the existance of God, and the legitimacy of the Bible? Does it not seem impossible to achieve such a feat?

No, you don't have any rights in their minds. They are here to deceive you. They are here to manipulate you and bring our destiny to fruition. It's kinda "scary" without Faith. And again, THAT is going to seem to many, to be a completely unrelated comment... something that has simply "nothing to do with UFOs and aliens"... I know... it's "preposterous", right?

Let me ask you this...

Let's roleplay. The year is 1250AD. We're in Ireland because... well... Where else would you want to be, really? *Evilgrin*

Instead of trying to prove UFOs and Abduction... Let's say we are engaging the "Round Earth" theory. And I am saying the "The world is round. We need to explore." And YOU are the Debunkers. What is your argument going to be? And just how SILLY do we consider that argument to be TODAY?

Get it yet?

Or what about the "Sun at the center of the Universe theory" that was so common at the time? What of THAT? LOL!!!!

No, you have no rights to them. Contact is something THEY are going to dictate. The government you believe deceives you, has really just "followed orders" many times not even comprehending this to be what they were really doing.

REALITY CHECK.

SPout

[edit on 27/202/07 by Southpaw11]

[edit on 27/202/07 by Southpaw11]



posted on Feb, 27 2007 @ 12:35 PM
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Mineal2007

Thanks for responding, I see you've taken the survival point of view but if we learnt more or knew more about this subject, we might well find out that survival, or the issue of surviving may well be a non issue. Like you point out it can be a dog eat dog world. That's a good phrase simply because it describes what it is we should be fearing... each other! This is where evil resides, but few grasp that. Good post, thank you.

Southpaw11

I really don't know where you're going with the old "the world is round" chestnut and I can imagine no other way than thinking outside the realms of the norm. So I would be standing there with you saying, sure go explore, perhaps I'll come too. I'd like to think I could look out to the ocean and the horizon and see with my own eyes that there is a curvature so could demonstrate quite easily that the World is not flat without going anywhere. All I would need was a stick and some sand and an audience with eyes that work.

I really wrote this post to see if anyone was brave enough to admit that we had no rights and subsequently to explore the phenomena from that angle. At least you have been but from the point of view of ET, but 1. I don't believe you know how ET's perception works and 2. I was asking what OUR rights are from your perspective as a HUMAN.

I see that you have also made some assumptions on what my beliefs may be and that's ok, perhaps I was too presumptuous to expect any actual out of the box dialogue when I have no faith that humans are able to suspend beliefs for very long, if at all and I know most won't venture anywhere near this subject because they have already decided or they fear this, it's easier NOT to address it.



posted on Feb, 27 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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Is there anyone that can provide any indication of what our rights are, if any?

Is this fact alone the reason why we are unable to explore this? Does it go against our very being?

If we had NO rights, what possible explanations could there be for this? What does it mean? Could it just simply be a case of the fact that we are stuck wallowing in our self importance, individually and collectively to look at this phenomena from ALL angles or should we stick to issues such as what sports ET plays or what they think of us.

EGO, GET IT?

There is NO serious discussion, we all just "SPout" a point of view based on our programming and conditioning. There's not a snowball's hope in hell humans will make much sense of what's going on and what it all means. The subject is paradoxical for humans. Where are all the "free" thinkers? I see so few.



posted on Feb, 27 2007 @ 02:17 PM
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Originally posted by Southpaw11
Would it not be interesting, in and of itself, were someone to "mathematically prove" the existance of God, and the legitimacy of the Bible? Does it not seem impossible to achieve such a feat?


That's impossible. The Bible is contradictory. It does not stand up to a rigourous proof.



posted on Feb, 27 2007 @ 03:15 PM
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Rights? Anytime you feel the need to declare that you have any rights at all then you are supposing there is a higher or equal power willing to infringe upon them. In this case in regards specifically to aliens. Making the assumption that they have directly been involved with human history which I happen to believe. Making a further assumption that they do abduct human beings; then this leaves far too many variables. Who knows what their societies consider ethical and humane and how they perceive us in regards to a more grand hierarchy of evolution than what we currently accept.

Putting myself in their shoes I can only relate in how I view other animals on our planet and generally what I would consider "lesser life forms." Truth be told I find it much more tragic that someone would go out of their way to kill a whale than I find someone going out of their way to kill a deer being I view the whale as much more evolved. How ever it does not mean I still do not feel sadness for the deer, yet such is the way of life that the bigger fish eat the smaller fish and I only accept this on an intellectual level I suppose. So do I feel bad that we test medicines on animals to save human lives for example? Yes I feel bad that the animal has to suffer and at the same time conflict arises in me that it might save a human I care about. On the flip side I would defend my dog who has the brain the size of a walnut maybe against almost any human any day.

Oddly enough on an individual basis I care for humans but society as a whole I despise and find humans rather unworthy of the intellectual power they have been given. Perhaps rights are earned? I find myself and humanity as a whole quite hypocritical if we are to declare that we have certain rights to a higher power such as aliens when we rarely observe the same rights to a lesser life form right here at home. How ever who knows what the aliens intentions are? I think we could adjust our perspective immensely but gaining the insight of how other societies and cultures have survived in other parts of the universe especially they ones who have evolved far beyond our imagination...



posted on Feb, 27 2007 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by Prote
Southpaw11

I really don't know where you're going with the old "the world is round" chestnut and I can imagine no other way than thinking outside the realms of the norm.


I guess we sometimes grab the "soapbox" on the board, no? I didn't mean to come across as "fingerpointing". I'm sorry you felt that way. It's hard to interpret sometimes online just "how" things are said, and heard, for that matter, no?

In that statement is merely the "begging" for humanity to "look" before the train hits it! LOL! IT being "humanity". So I'm right with you. I can't believe you posted this. I don't even know that people will actually even note the bravery it really must have taken to even post this response. I appreciate you. And I DO understand what you mean. It's not usual that people WILL actually come into a public place such as this and reveal their soul to total strangers. So, thanks. I get it...




So I would be standing there with you saying, sure go explore, perhaps I'll come too. I'd like to think I could look out to the ocean and the horizon and see with my own eyes that there is a curvature so could demonstrate quite easily that the World is not flat without going anywhere. All I would need was a stick and some sand and an audience with eyes that work.


OUTSTANDING! LOL!




I really wrote this post to see if anyone was brave enough to admit that we had no rights and subsequently to explore the phenomena from that angle. At least you have been but from the point of view of ET, but 1. I don't believe you know how ET's perception works and 2. I was asking what OUR rights are from your perspective as a HUMAN.


I admire the bravery it must've taken just to post the preceding paragraph. And to answer your concerns honestly:

(1) I didn't figure any of this out, Derrel Sims did. Go check his information out. Seriously. It's gonna blow your mind when you realize that NOT all ufologists want limelight... this guy, actually, prefers to stay out of it completely.

(2) Our rights from OUR perspective? This is an interesting question. I appreciate greatly. I think our rights are equivalent to those of a cow, when consider a cow in reference to a human. And I also think that analogy is INCREDIBLY accurate. Again, from the research of Derrel Sims. I believe they don't CARE about your rights. I feel that my rights have been encroache upon IMMENSELY. I have been VIOLATED... as has HUMANITY collectively.

AND...

We continue to argue amongst ourselves about IF this is real, when innocent children are being abused on a DAILY basis... around the world. And YES, I do say that quite "matter-of-factly". Again, I would advise that SOMEONE take a look at Sims' book... READ IT. Understand precisely WHAT he has done... and HOW he has reached his conclusions...

You would ALSO see that this guy is probably a BIGGER skeptic than any of us in here... Yeah... THAT seems like a contradictory statement TOO, doesn't it? LOL!

TRUTH. It's out there.





I see that you have also made some assumptions on what my beliefs may be and that's ok, perhaps I was too presumptuous to expect any actual out of the box dialogue when I have no faith that humans are able to suspend beliefs for very long, if at all and I know most won't venture anywhere near this subject because they have already decided or they fear this, it's easier NOT to address it.


HMMMMM.... If I presumed anything, then I am mistaken, and apologize for that. I know exactly what that feels like, and I don't personally enjoy the feeling, so I'm sorry if that's how you felt.

And finally... this is one of the most intellectually challenging responses I've ever seen in my life. I can tell that your concern, you hope, and your thought run deep.

Perhaps sometimes as I search and share the "message" I've got to share... I fail to LISTEN sometimes... I think we all do it... but I just got caught...

I enjoy your thinking... please...

Tell more... It's an interesting line of thought... What is it you are hoping to see in your audience? What is the reflection you are looking for? I think it's extremely important point to consider...

So, great job in that regard!

Southpaw



posted on Feb, 27 2007 @ 04:09 PM
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You know, this is a very interesting topic on any number of levels. And coincidentally (maybe?) invokes for me, the term "inalienable rights".
>inadvertent chortle<

Where do our rights come from? Are there natural rights? Are we as Jefferson so eloquently phrased it "endowed by our creator with unalienable rights"? And if we weren't, who says we have any rights at any time anywhere at all? The government?

Scary thought, no?

Of course this topic of "rights" has been debated at length and written about extensively by philosophers such as Hume, Locke, Rousseau, and plenty of others I barely understand.

What do I think? I think we were endowed by our creator with certain unalienable rights. They're enumerated in the Declaration of Independence, and I'm not under any illusion believing I could improve upon that document.

The other option would be, you have the rights granted to you by someone, or some body, with more power than you have. And at that point, they're not "rights", they're "privileges", granted to you until "they" decide you're not entitled to them any longer.

I believe this has ramifications far beyond any interplanetary abduction scenario. You want to find the enemy, look to the legislature, or better yet, look in the mirror.



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 07:40 PM
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Hi Anonymous Avatar, thanks for your post, I agree in the most part and your thinking shows that you are honest with yourself, I like that.


Originally Posted by Anonymous Avatar
Putting myself in their shoes I can only relate in how I view other animals on our planet and generally what I would consider "lesser life forms."

Great Analogy! This is pretty much what any of us has to relate to and most of us couldn't give a hoot about sheep or cattle, fish or millions of other creatures. Hell, we shoot many of them, poison them. Some eat dogs, other cultures would find that disgusting but they will eat a pig. Look at animal testing so we can have a better smelling carpet deoderizer or crushed panda penis because it might get some hot chick horny. The uses we have (not just food) for animals shows a complete lack of respect for life in general by our species. IMO, this shows just how dumb we are and the main reason that many of us fear aliens or any race that may possess greater intelligence and technology. Naturally, we think of abductions as abuse because our only frame of reference is us and the despicable things we do to other life forms. We don't allow many rights to other life forms, why should we expect any?

On the same point, I watched a documentary the other day about Polar Bears. A chopper flew in trying to seperate the mother and cub and darting the mother. What fear must have been going through those bears at that point but have no fear, they were checking them that they were ok... the purpose? To aid them avoid extinction!!! My point is that either we have no right to complain about the "abuse" or we are sorely mistaken in thinking that highly evolved intelligent beings are anything like us in how they view life or we are mistaken in thinking that it is actually abuse.




Southpaw, well I'm impressed with your honesty and humility. I saw your other threads and posts and honestly was put off. This post here has led me to research your Sims guy, you have changed my mind about you for the better, and for that, I thank you...

I'm still gonna argue though



Originally posted by Southpaw11
Our rights from OUR perspective? This is an interesting question. I appreciate greatly. I think our rights are equivalent to those of a cow, when consider a cow in reference to a human. And I also think that analogy is INCREDIBLY accurate. Again, from the research of Derrel Sims. I believe they don't CARE about your rights. I feel that my rights have been encroache upon IMMENSELY. I have been VIOLATED... as has HUMANITY collectively.

AND...

We continue to argue amongst ourselves about IF this is real, when innocent children are being abused on a DAILY basis... around the world. And YES, I do say that quite "matter-of-factly". Again, I would advise that SOMEONE take a look at Sims' book... READ IT. Understand precisely WHAT he has done... and HOW he has reached his conclusions...

You would ALSO see that this guy is probably a BIGGER skeptic than any of us in here... Yeah... THAT seems like a contradictory statement TOO, doesn't it? LOL!

This is great feedback, mainly because I disagree with you. That's good though, I will research this guy and where he is coming from because I can't trash or support anything until I am informed on this particular person but he isn't the only student of this. However, we all like to think we are somewhat informed on the subjects we are interested in, presumably because we would have read or researched about it prior to discussion but there is ALWAYS a caveat with anything an individual reads or even researches, no matter the quantity, especially when it comes to Aliens and UFO's and particularly abduction. That includes your guy and all of us mere mortals.

That caveat is that everything we know is based upon building blocks of knowledge or facts. Each "truth" we have that forms the basis of our knowledge is subject to bias based on previous beliefs, thoughts or conditioning. In order to be as objective as possible, you have to "assume" that anything and everything you believe(d) may be false, hence the phrase "you have to unlearn everything you have learned".

This is my problem when it comes to abduction... I see none of that impartiality, the suspension of beliefs because there is always something that we cling on to that will skew our judgement. In this field, if you are religious, you have to suspend everything the bible teaches you, if you think we evolved, you have to drop that too. That's just for starters and few could get anywhere near that.

The result is fear. Bucketloads of it. If you think about abductions from a human perspective without suspending the fundamental building blocks of "knowledge" that shape our reality then you will get to no other conclusion other than the abduction phenomena being abuse or some sort of slavery i.e. we are cattle! When we are not able to be completely objective, it is the only conclusion. The problem is that so few are able to get past their religious conditioning or put aside their human perspectives and that ticks me off.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
What is it you are hoping to see in your audience?

Open-ness and an ability to suspend conditioning to consider that perhaps these abductions are NOT what we think they are. If only to view this from an angle many readers would not have thought about.


Originally posted by Southpaw11
What is the reflection you are looking for?

Laying out that we have no rights and getting this point to be easily seen and understood is a start. This alone gives many an alternative starting point before they crawl under their bed clothes in fear. From my own understanding and perhaps even bias, I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing to fear, anywhere, ever.

I come at this from the viewpoint that abductions are not abuse, for the sake of conversation primarily because it is a minority view but mainly because it makes no sense in my reality. I have no agenda to push a belief or anything, my agenda is about angles and perspectives and exploration of radical ideas and thought processes helps my own understanding as well as many others who may have an interest.

Saying alien abductions are abuse and a violation is the easy option. However, it is an option I completely understand because I understand the status quo. Having said this, there are angles that you can view this from where this makes no sense at all. If we haven't explored the angles where it makes no sense, how can we conclude anything?

You may have explored those angles and your Sims guy also. I would like to think I am extensively read on the subject but there is always someone that has read and researched more, that doesn't make their conclusions right, nor mine but a fearful conclusion cannot be, can it?



posted on Mar, 1 2007 @ 07:49 PM
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Hello yeahright.

I'm glad you popped in, when I see your name on a post, I know I'm going to read a balanced point of view. You bring an interesting point...


Originally posted by yeahright
The other option would be, you have the rights granted to you by someone, or some body, with more power than you have. And at that point, they're not "rights", they're "privileges", granted to you until "they" decide you're not entitled to them any longer. I believe this has ramifications far beyond any interplanetary abduction scenario. You want to find the enemy, look to the legislature, or better yet, look in the mirror.

I think this is bang on the money. We have life. We have bodies. We are allowed sentience, existence and so much more. Who gave us these "privileges"? because that's exactly what they are... privileges! and we are damned lucky to exist at all let alone recognise it. What does this mean? Well, the religious among us may feel they have the answers and the non religious think the religious don't. It doesn't matter provided we are able to wallow, even for a short time, in a realm where we totally deconstruct and reconstruct how we think it all came to be and what it's all about. How much we deconstruct before the reconstruction is the key. I am saying we don't deconstruct enough. Everyone thinks this life is reality and everyone wants proofs.

I am offering a starting point in that deconstruction... that we get off our pedestal and understand that we have no rights in the first place, not even a right to life or existance. That doesn't mean anyone has the right to take it away or violate us, I am suggesting that the violation is only violation when viewed from our oh so limited perspective and intelligence.

Thanks for your post, and everyone. I got more replies than I thought I would and am happy to continue to explore thought processes if anyone else does. If not, it's all good anyway!



posted on Mar, 2 2007 @ 01:32 PM
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Thank you very much for the kind words.

I'm just curious if you're familiar with the works of Jeremy Bentham and his Critique of the Doctrine of Inalienable Rights. Something you'd likely find interesting, I'd think.

Maybe we don't deconstruct enough, assuming we even understand what "deconstruction" is. I'd prefer to think of it as examining the basis for believing as we do. And that very much depends upon the subjective platform (pedestal?) we stand upon, doesn't it?

If you are an atheist or agnostic, you're certainly going to view the topic of rights through a very different lens than a theist would, I think.

If I'm reading you correctly (and I won't make that assumption) you seem to believe in moral relativism or perspectivism. I vaguely remember a quote (don't know who or where) but it was basically "...tell me why it's wrong but don't tell me it offends the Universe". Which cracks me up, anyway.

I'm not sure I can travel very far down that road ~again~ if it means accepting as a basic premise that we have no inherent rights. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in seeing what anyone else has to say on the topic. OIther than maybe Hobbes. I tried to tackle "Leviathan" once. It won.



posted on Mar, 2 2007 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by Prote
Is there anyone that can provide any indication of what our rights are, if any?

Is this fact alone the reason why we are unable to explore this? Does it go against our very being?

If we had NO rights, what possible explanations could there be for this? What does it mean? Could it just simply be a case of the fact that we are stuck wallowing in our self importance, individually and collectively to look at this phenomena from ALL angles or should we stick to issues such as what sports ET plays or what they think of us.

EGO, GET IT?

There is NO serious discussion, we all just "SPout" a point of view based on our programming and conditioning. There's not a snowball's hope in hell humans will make much sense of what's going on and what it all means. The subject is paradoxical for humans. Where are all the "free" thinkers? I see so few.



Originally posted by Prote
Is there anyone that can provide any indication of what our rights are, if any?

Is this fact alone the reason why we are unable to explore this? Does it go against our very being?

If we had NO rights, what possible explanations could there be for this? What does it mean? Could it just simply be a case of the fact that we are stuck wallowing in our self importance, individually and collectively to look at this phenomena from ALL angles or should we stick to issues such as what sports ET plays or what they think of us.

EGO, GET IT?

There is NO serious discussion, we all just "SPout" a point of view based on our programming and conditioning. There's not a snowball's hope in hell humans will make much sense of what's going on and what it all means. The subject is paradoxical for humans. Where are all the "free" thinkers? I see so few.


WISDOM. That is what this is. VERY WELL DONE.

The fact that we are immersed in ARROGANCE, not pointing fingers b/c I am too included in this grouping, that we look for a moment, then say "nope. not even close."

Can you imagine if all the gazelle or antelope of the world had this attitude? NOT KIDDING.

And I will point again to a work that is based upon FORTY. 40. FOUR ZERO. Upon FORTY YEARS of EXPERIENCE. STUDY. INFILTRATION. OPERATION. RESEARCH. INVESTIGATION.

I am NOT kidding about this. And I am NOT advertising for the man.

GET YOUR HANDS ON DERREL SIMS' BOOK:

Alienhunter: The Evidence in Light



Also, if there is a book out by Joe Moldano... Was recently on Coast to Coast as well... I'd never heard of him before... but HE has it RIGHT too...




Again, folks...

DO NOT BELIEVE ME. GO SEE FOR YOURSELF. I am NOT running for Governor, and will NOT be. I don't give a damn about making money off this, and I BELIEVE that anyone that IS of that mind, is HURTING HUMANITY. We've got a major problem here, folks.

PROTE is RIGHT ON. Look at the evidence. HUMANITY IS UNDER ATTACK. We have been Infiltrated, Manipulated, CONTROLLED. Imagine if some of the STUPIDEST CHOICES of your life were made with "some assistance", that would VERY strange, no?

HMMMMM....

I think it is time to consider the fact that there MAY be another "species" higher up the "food chain" than HOMO SAPIEN. I think we'd better consider the fact that water buffalo and sheep think THEY are safe too...

And then we might want to being working COLLECTIVELY to figure out what the heck is going on.

You DO realize there are more than 500,000,000 (Five Hundred MILLION) accounts of "abduction" that have been RECORDED. Now how many people out there do you suppose are JUST LIKE YOU (the reader that KNOWS they have this history, and THINK THEY ARE ALL ALONE) and don't want people to know...

Arrogance/Complacency = DINNER FOR LIONS


BeExcellentToEachOther

Southpaw



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 03:19 PM
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Originally posted by yeahright
Thank you very much for the kind words.

Anytime.



I'm just curious if you're familiar with the works of Jeremy Bentham and his Critique of the Doctrine of Inalienable Rights. Something you'd likely find interesting, I'd think.

I took some time to read up about him before I replied. Yes, I found it interesting but of course, he is very much talking about rights from the perspective of a people or persons in a governmental system. I agree with him on most points, freedom from oppression for example is one right we SHOULD have. He identifies four main rights: liberty, property, security, and resistance to oppression.

I do agree that we should have these rights and this is what government attempts to provide. Again, this is related to people and government rather than people and aliens. The error I think he has made is that he basically states that disorder and chaos is the result if government didn't legally provide an environment that upholds those rights. This is the issue. I, and many others, could happily live in a society without government and without necessity of "rights" because I would never steal from my neighbour, I would never force myself onto another, I would never etc etc. This means that there would only be disorder and chaos on a planet such as Earth because we are a nasty bunch of critters that will happily screw over one another to get ahead. This is not the way life is supposed to work, but it does. My K-PAX esque username and avatar is purely as a result of the fact this piece of fiction promotes the very ideals of existance that is one or more karmic levels above this planet.

Here on Earth, we do screw each other over, we do kill, maim, torture, sometimes in the name of fun, sport or power. Frankly, it's disgusting. When I look around the world, even the so called "civilized" societies, I'm still disgusted. So when it comes to aliens abducting us, we think and assume that we are being violated, raped or whatever but only because we are looking at this through the eyes of a species that continuously wallows in it's own lust for disorder and simply assume that everything in the universe is like that.

The problem is that this is all logical unless we start viewing this from a blank piece of paper and start again, making different assumptions and conclusions as we go and by doing that, we have to go right back to origins and creationism and start from there. When we do that and change that fundamental building block of knowledge and change it for a different one like... aliens seeded us here in the first place... then everything starts to make sense as we build up again a new theory based on a different original suppositions. However, none of it makes sense if we cling onto beliefs like we all were spawned from Adam and Eve. Don't even get me started on the implications of inbreeding if that were true but that is just an example.


Maybe we don't deconstruct enough, assuming we even understand what "deconstruction" is. I'd prefer to think of it as examining the basis for believing as we do. And that very much depends upon the subjective platform (pedestal?) we stand upon, doesn't it?

Yes, you pretty much got it but we generally don't deconstruct at all, let alone enough. That's why we just lead ourselves further into confusion because as soon as someone suggests that we came about as a result of other entities basically manufacturing us, then all hell breaks loose because virtually no one will let go of their original contradicatory belief that they have held as fact since they can walk and talk. Deconstruction and suspension of disbelief is the only way forward to getting answers in this field without scaring the planet half to death.


If you are an atheist or agnostic, you're certainly going to view the topic of rights through a very different lens than a theist would, I think.

Of course, but in order to put yourself into a group such as this, you would, by definition, have made firm decisions and planted your "belief flag", and probably be unable to let that building block of understanding go. It is easier though depending on your starting point and your level of willingness to change your beliefs. Beliefs shouldn't be carved in stone but many are.


If I'm reading you correctly (and I won't make that assumption) you seem to believe in moral relativism or perspectivism. I vaguely remember a quote (don't know who or where) but it was basically "...tell me why it's wrong but don't tell me it offends the Universe". Which cracks me up, anyway.

I think many others are believers in relativism. I really don't like labels, they are constricting by definition and I believe that beliefs should have room for manoeuvre or blatant shifts or change if necessary. To answer your question though, no, not really either of those, at least not in their entirety when taking the literal meaning.


I'm not sure I can travel very far down that road ~again~ if it means accepting as a basic premise that we have no inherent rights. That doesn't mean I'm not interested in seeing what anyone else has to say on the topic. OIther than maybe Hobbes. I tried to tackle "Leviathan" once. It won.

Yeah, I know what you mean. It's an easy thing to get tied up in knots, I'm sure I have on this thread. I really asked the question of rights because I do not believe that we have any and I also believe that most of us think we do. It is ego that makes us think, falsely, that we deserve things. I thought it was the easiest point to question and the thread proves that many can't (or won't) demonstrate why aliens may NOT have a right to abduct us. I do not believe alien abductions are nefarious in nature at all and I believe that based on our human, religious and societal conditioning, there is no other way to see these abductions other than evil. I don't subscribe to many things that the majority also subscribe to and on the basis that I think humanity is evil (no, not all of us, but enough) and a million other reasons, I think we have it wrong to think that "visiting" species are here to enslave us. In my reality, this doesn't make sense.



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 04:23 PM
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Originally posted by Prote
...as soon as someone suggests that we came about as a result of other entities basically manufacturing us...


In a narrower scope, I could see the "boy and his dog" view. He picks up his dog, pets it, pokes it, chases it, takes it to the vet. He does not see it as violating the dogs rights. The dog does not either.

In a broader scope for humanity, if we were the result of another lifeform's work, should not we see it the same way?

Man talks about rights, but I feel it is simply a protection and survival mechanism. From our limited view of life, assuming earth is not alone, man seems to be the lifeform expecting rights while frequently bypassing them in respect to other lifeforms on earth. Look how animals and plants are treated by so many here. If you and I agree upon some actions between us (rights), it can make survival easier. I do not harm you, you not me. Let's just go harm someone else if we need something.

I sense that life on earth, with the general exception of man, just flows along in a dynamic balance. No right or wrong. A lion eating a zebra is not wrong or a rights violation, it is the balance and function of life energy.

A more advanced species in the universe might not care at all about what a third species did to humans on earth. It is just life doing the life thing.

The idea that there are alliances of species within galaxies agreeing to terms of action might just be a dream. Mankind likes to think it is a higher lifeform than animals and therefore we can operate under a system of rights and be special or advanced. Maybe this is just a state due to the stucture of our body and brain and has nothing to do with life energy at all. We may be the only life with this thought or belief.

The very fact that we can even think that rights might not exist might in fact make them unreal.

I think the bottom line is, a lifeform will fight for it's own survival. Who wants to be the zebra at dinner time.

[edit on 3/4/2007 by roadgravel]



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 05:46 PM
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Hi roadgravel...


Originally posted by roadgravel
From our limited view of life, assuming earth is not alone, man seems to be the lifeform expecting rights while frequently bypassing them in respect to other lifeforms on earth. Look how animals and plants are treated by so many here.

On the money.



I sense that life on earth, with the general exception of man, just flows along in a dynamic balance. No right or wrong. A lion eating a zebra is not wrong or a rights violation, it is the balance and function of life energy.

I would agree except that we think we are different, mainly self awareness, ego, intelligence, problem solving, communication etc sets us apart, and perhaps rightly so. On Earth, at least one life form has been given the ability to question life and it's meaning, Why?

I think we have a purpose more important than merely being part of a life cycle in this vein, otherwise, maybe there is cause for concern, hence I draw an alternative conclusion but I understand and partially agree.


A more advanced species in the universe might not care at all about what a third species did to humans on earth. It is just life doing the life thing.

Unless this advanced species had a vested interest in protecting their "flock".


The idea that there are alliances of species within galaxies agreeing to terms of action might just be a dream.

Maybe. What if the entire three dimensional universe and all the species within that universe had a purpose and were PUT there to carry out that function. OK, maybe that's TOO far out there. I don't think our species will get out into the galaxy and explore, I don't think that's how it works but no-one agrees with me on that one, not even the contactees. We aren't far off being "reset" as far as I can see but that may cause ripples.


The very fact that we can even think that rights might not exist might in fact make them unreal.

Yes. But what rights may be unreal? Are there any there in the first place? Also, aren't our rights relating only to the physical? Would our soul have rights? or are we confused thinking that we are only what we see in the mirror? Is this the illusion?


I think the bottom line is, a lifeform will fight for it's own survival. Who wants to be the zebra at dinner time.

Not me! But if we all thought about being the zebra whilst we, the lions, chased it, would we look for an alternative meal, would be go veggie? All life as we know it would fight to the death for survival. To protect our useless bodies that we burn or bury anyway when we are done using them. Programming?


I hope I didn't come across as argumentative, just trying to expand or alter the angle of how we think about these things. I agree with your thought process and enjoyed your post, thank you.



posted on Mar, 4 2007 @ 06:32 PM
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posted on 3/5/07 at 03:29


Hi Prote,

Love the name and the avatar. Wonderful film and books!

I don't think we have any rights, other than those we bestow upon ourselves. Even then, they aren't really rights, are they? They are a set of permissions from someone more powerful than us. If we all had a right to the basic necessities of life, then there would be provision to prevent people from being homeless and without the basic needs to survive.

We, as a species, have shown and continue to show incredible arrogance and narrow mindedness. We dominate the world for the moment. Perhaps that was originally "allowed" due to our design (intelligence, communication, free will etc.), or perhaps it did evolve by accident and coincidence. Either way, I don't know and neither does anyone else.

Do we have the right to know about god? No. Let's suppose there is a benevolent creator somewhere out there observing the fruits of their labour. It seems to me that based on our behaviour toward one another, toward the animals we rule and the world we abuse, we have forgone any possible right to ask for anything, up to and including (especially) forgiveness. What right does another man have to tell me that I have to go through him to have a relationship with the creator? He has the right given to him by another man in a higher, more privileged position and so on. I don't want to get into a theological debate here, but as far as religion is concerned...Assuming there is a god...I think we could do away with the "organisation" and maintain individual beliefs with the same end result. The only difference is that we wouldn't be meeting the social need.

Aliens? I've said in other posts that I don't believe we are alone in the universe. I wouldn't be surprised if those other races were having the same debates as us. It would be nice to know one way or another about those others, but I don't think we have a right to know.

So, as you can probably tell, my answer would be, no. We have no rights, merely wants and needs. Whether they are being met is moot.

I need to think some more on this subject as it is a difficult one to put into words properly.

Thanks for posting.

Grey



posted on Mar, 5 2007 @ 07:43 PM
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Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Hi Prote,

Hey Grey!


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Love the name and the avatar.

Why, thank you. I get that a lot, and also occasionally get flak when I change my avatar!!!


You bring another good post, I like people to think and every poster has thus far.
For fear of going over old ground, I highlight the new thoughts you bring...


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
or perhaps it did evolve by accident and coincidence.

It's clear to me that we are no accident. It's not a universal understanding however. Coincidence? Well, I will get hugely off topic with that one, it's another word with immense depth of subjective perception.


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Do we have the right to know about god? No.

This is an awesome question which you answered negatively. I'm not sure. I will think on it some more but this may be the one right we MAY have. God is another issue that will have billions of us arguing for millenia. My main premise is the supposition that we may well be mistaking the nature of our "creator" and our purpose for being here but I see you get that from your follow up.

With the issue of rights, you will notice a lack of posters who will debate that we do have rights, these are the rights we have and these are the reasons we have those rights. It may be unfair of me because I'm confident I can shoot it down. You mention the abuse we pour onto the Earth and the so called lower life forms (animals) that we share this rock with. It is a popular comparison and probably the best we have from a human perspective so why then do we scream blue murder when we think we have been adbucted? Even then, we aren't sure!!! and most don't believe it, what a joke. Do we really know what's going on? and why?, or because it's happening to us, we don't like it! It must be the work of the devil and aliens are demons! lol

Science can't get near this subject, Religion makes no effort to get answers, they claim they have them already. So on one side you have something we don't understand and we fear what we don't understand and on the other hand, you have demons, of course, fear fear fear.

I'm just tired of the fear and confusion everywhere. If we think the whole abduction scenario is malevolent then what's the point? What's the point of anything? It doesn't make any sense to me and didn't until I wiped the knowledge slate clean and started over. Now it all makes sense but this particular clarity of thought could get me thrown in the nuthouse. Who would judge that?

Here's an interesting game... The question of rights is a difficult subject and I think I may have shown that in here...

Who has the right to judge? and how many of us do so? What's wrong with that picture?

As a species, we are just a bunch of confused, misguided bunnies. Add ego to the pot and an inability to question everything and we get the world we see around us. I so hope this is my last tour, I'm not choosing this gig again and I am one of the lucky ones. Who knows what horrors I may get next time, I better have given myself an opt out clause.



Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Assuming there is a god...I think we could do away with the "organisation" and maintain individual beliefs with the same end result.

Great minds think alike.
www.abovetopsecret.com...'

I can't remember who said it but "All religions lead to the same astral world, some just take a more scenic route".


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
So, as you can probably tell, my answer would be, no. We have no rights, merely wants and needs. Whether they are being met is moot.

Wants and needs. Exactly. Ego. Arrogance.

Whether they are being met is moot. Bang on. That's why we need to drop the dogma if we really want to even stand a snowballs chance in hell of understanding what's really going on.


Thanks for posting.

No, Thank You!

EDIT: splelign

[edit on 5/3/07 by Prote]



posted on Mar, 6 2007 @ 07:32 AM
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Hi Prote,

This has to be the most fascinating thread I have yet encountered on ATS. Thank you!

I should think you do get flak for changing the avatar. Every time I see Kevin Spacey with that look on his face I smile and bask in the wonder of the story. Anyway, time to get away from the movie review! I could spend all day talking about this one.


I don't think we came about due to a cosmic accident either. I only have to look around me at the world in which I live to prove that. Simplistic, I know, but...The idea that all this developed due to some random chance, where all the ingredients came together in the right way, at the right time is illogical. Perhaps that is a theological issue/argument rather than scientific, I don't know. I don't pretend to have enough understanding of either to be able to debate in detail. It all comes down to individual world view and perception?

Yes, I do think we have made mistakes with our interpretation of the "creator". We are confined to this world and have a limited understanding of so many things within it (ourselves included). It seems fairly obvious to me that our interpretation is by definition narrow and therefore bound to be incorrect at some level.

You pose a difficult question regarding our view of abduction. I'm still on the fence where alien abduction is concerned, but am increasingly leaning toward the possibility of it actually happening. We really don't know enough to state one way or another what is going on and it is laughable that things like this must be due to the work of a devil. Again, this simply illustrates the narrowness of our viewpoint. Ok, rather the viewpoint of a lot of people, but not all.

Science is in the same boat as every other "discipline". Too many unanswered and unanswerable questions. Where a question cannot be answered using the scientific method, it is ignored or the theory behind the question is debunked. I was convinced I didn't feel this negativity until very recently, but am beginning to realise, due to some past experiences, that I have always felt it. Fear is incredibly powerful and is used all the time to control. I wrote in another thread a few days ago that I had been blinded by a religion for many years and had been completely conditioned to accept their beliefs. A number of things happened that were the catalyst for me to begin, for the first time, to question whether those beliefs were actually mine or whether I was following someone else out of pure fear. It turned out to be exactly that. What a revelation (pun intended!) to find that out. It took me over two years and a lot of hard work to finally eradicate that fear and accept that it no longer needed to be my ruler. Religion only has answers if you want it to. Religion has lots of theories and has had thousands of years to hone the skills needed to herd people into fold and shape their thoughts and feelings according to its' own agenda. Maybe that agenda is benevolent in many cases, but I have my own thoughts on that one! And I don't necessarily include all religions as I don't have knowledge of them all. I can only comment on my own experiences and rationale.

From what I have read of abductees, their experiences are often unpleasant and generate fear. In what way do you think it may be something different? Maybe I have misinterpreted you, but I get the impression you have a different view on this. I'd be interested to hear it.

What is wrong with the picture you paint is patently obvious to me. As we do not have any rights, we cannot judge. And yet, we all do it every single day. Having said that, do we have the right to judge the person who commits murder? If we don't, then where does that leave us? In certain circumstances, we do need to judge the actions of others and act accordingly, but that brings me full circle. Is it more simple than that? Do we have rights to some things and not others? Possibly. We have been gifted with free will, therefore, whether or not we have a right to do so, we must judge sometimes.

I think we fail to question because we are perhaps afraid of the answer. That is probably due to our ego status. We are so dominant and arrogant that we feel the need to control, subdue or destroy things that we percieve to be in direct oppostion to where we think we should be.

Dogma - Now there's a dirty word to *me* (no offense to anyone reading this who misinterprets my reasons). The concept is now abhorrant and I will not be party to it any more. I wasted 25yrs following dogma and doctrine. Don't get me going on this subject.

Thanks for the link to the other thread. I am going to read and respond there because it looks like another I could ramble on about for many hours. Great stuff


Grey



posted on Mar, 9 2007 @ 08:20 AM
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Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Hi Prote,

This has to be the most fascinating thread I have yet encountered on ATS. Thank you!

Hey Grey!

High praise indeed, thank you. My line of thinking is an acquired taste it seems or I pick difficult subjects. I think this thread has run it's course, the conclusion being that no, we have no rights at all regarding this phenomena and our arrogance refuses to ponder the possibility that Aliens are abducting us for reasons that we simply won't like. That's why we don't remember them (mostly) and the human way is to lash out at what we don't understand.


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
I don't think we came about due to a cosmic accident either. I only have to look around me at the world in which I live to prove that. Simplistic, I know, but...The idea that all this developed due to some random chance, where all the ingredients came together in the right way, at the right time is illogical. Perhaps that is a theological issue/argument rather than scientific, I don't know. I don't pretend to have enough understanding of either to be able to debate in detail. It all comes down to individual world view and perception?

I think you are right here. There are a million things that if just one of them were altered, life as we know it would cease to exist. Take the tilt of the Earth for example, if it changed, and tilted just a few degrees, we would be wiped out pronto. Our very existence walks a tightrope and we are priveliged to be here.


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Yes, I do think we have made mistakes with our interpretation of the "creator". We are confined to this world and have a limited understanding of so many things within it (ourselves included). It seems fairly obvious to me that our interpretation is by definition narrow and therefore bound to be incorrect at some level.

I agree again although I would add that it is our ego that doesn't allow this thought process. The truth threatens us and puts us on such a lower footing to where we thought we were, no one wants to go there. Deny Ignorance is a phrase used here way too often because ignorance isn't being denied at a fundamental level.


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
We really don't know enough to state one way or another what is going on and it is laughable that things like this must be due to the work of a devil.

Even if it WAS the work of the Devil, we'd be too afraid to open that can of worms so it is better to shout devils/demons from a distant and slam the door. Don't get too close, we may get burned. Another really cool strategy for denying ignorance. Here's another thread I posted you may like...

If ET was Evil, What difference would it make?


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
Fear is incredibly powerful and is used all the time to control. I wrote in another thread a few days ago that I had been blinded by a religion for many years and had been completely conditioned to accept their beliefs. A number of things happened that were the catalyst for me to begin, for the first time, to question whether those beliefs were actually mine or whether I was following someone else out of pure fear. It turned out to be exactly that. What a revelation (pun intended!) to find that out. It took me over two years and a lot of hard work to finally eradicate that fear and accept that it no longer needed to be my ruler.

I was lucky, I never had the disadvantage of such clouded teachings. It wasn't until I was 25 that I started researching religion(s) and trying to understand what I was missing. A decade later, I still read the religious stuff in the hope that my lowly intellect may just make some sense of it and see what everyone else is talking about. I'm still waiting for that clarity that people get from religion but at least I understand now why there is all the fear and confusion. THAT is the clarity that religion offers me.


Originally posted by Grey_Pilgrim
From what I have read of abductees, their experiences are often unpleasant and generate fear. In what way do you think it may be something different?

I think it is different for a very simple reason... Our species in general, hasn't got a clue what it's talking about.

Continued....



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