The kennedy assasination leaves so many questions that its almost impossible to know where to begin, but a few things are quite clear to me. If you study the Z film carefully, you will see that

1) His head does indeed move forward slighlty before the violent backwards motion.

2) upon the apparent missile impact, ejecta flies MOSTLY forward from what we can see in the video, including what appears to be a sizeable chunk of bone (the Harper fragment, perhaps?)

JFK and Governer Connally both react seemingly at the same time - JFK pulls his hands up, and connaly jerks a bit, at the PRECISE same moment, right as JFK comes out from behind the sign.

These theings are almost undebateable.

On the flip side, there is evidence that makes it hard to believe that Oswald did it. The fact that he made it to the lunchroom without being out of breath or disturbed in any way, WITH a cold coke in his hand fresh out of the machine, within 60-90 seconds.

The autopsy photos, which contradict even THEMSELVES.

The testimony of the doctors at Parkland that day, and the testimony of DP witnesses. Almost ALL agree that the right REAR portion of his skull was blown off, blown away, blasted, etc. That certainly is not consistent with a shot from the TSBD building.


BUT - I said all that to say THIS - NEITHER are either of these scenarios consistent with a shot from the grassy knoll area. Jackie likely would have been injured by such a shot. It's a much sharper angle than most realize, and quite simply doesnt work for any of the injuries seen in the Z-film, described by the docs, or shown in the autopsy photos.

going back to the first post of the shooter being from the grassy knoll, it has also been proven that if the figure in the grassy knoll claimed to be a real person and one of the shooters, he would have to be over 11 feet tall to appear as he does in the photo of the grassy knoll. Its a trcik on the eyes, we naturally look for faces whever we look that why we see faces on the moon and on mars.

I don't understand this whole "back and to the left" thing. If the right side of his brain is damaged we know that the left side of the body will react. Tensing up will happen when nerves are damaged, and not necessarily correspond to where the bulet came from. It's not like being hit with a baseball bat, it's a bullet slicing cleanly through, with little resistance. I'm more in favour of the conspiracy but this has always been bad evidence imo and too much influenced by the movie "JFK". Could someone please explain.

The version of the Z film that shows a large blob in the front of the head at the moment of impact is a fraud. The undoctored version shows two large flaps of skin 'splaying' up and out on either side of the tangential entrance wound through the right temple, though the two pieces remained attached to the scalp by skin tissue. Jackie carefully folded the pieces back into position as she cradled his head. At least one doctor at Parkland noticed a seam of raised, swollen tissue in the right temple where the fatal shot entered.

A motorcycle cop riding off to the left, rear of the presidential limo was hit by brain and bone matter, so hard that the officer thought that he himself had been shot. This is strongly indicative of a shot coming from the right, front of the vehicle, about where the grassy knoll was located.

And of course look at the reaction of all the witnesses in Dealey Plaza at the time. A large crowd ran in that direction immediately afterwards. Photographs immediately afterwards show motorcade watchers all looking in that direction. Between 2/3 to 3/4 of all witenesses heard shots from that direction. All the witnesses closest to the grassy knoll said the shots came from behind the fence. The Sheriff and Police Chief, riding in the car ahead of the president, both initially ordered their officers to that area via radio.
And at least one witness said he saw a man with a rifle running from the area behind the fence.

An explosion on the front, right of his head would cause the head to snap to the back and left. The video clearly shows skull and brain matter exploding from the front, right of his head.

The History Channel recently showed a documentry with virtual graphics that showed how Oswald could have fired the neck shot which hit Connely and the fatal shot.

DarkElf -

The History Channel special "Beyond the Magic Bullet" is what I believe you are referring to. The shot through the dummies to re-create the magic bullet seemed quite convincing, until you realize (they dont mention this) that the bullet came out of the JFK dummie's CHEST, and not the throat.


Something to think about.

Originally posted by darkelf
An explosion on the front, right of his head

What, did somebody throw an M-80 at his head? A bullet traveling through a body drags tissue and blood with it out of the body. There is no "jet effect."

Originally posted by darkelf
The History Channel recently showed a documentry with virtual graphics

What they won't show you is a real live person replicating Oswald's act. In tests by trained marksmen afterwards, only one was able to replicate the three shots in the number of seconds that Oswald allegedly used. And he was shooting at a stationary target using a specially machined Mannlicher-Carcano, not Oswald's Mannlicher which was 'difficult' to operate(opening and closing the bolt) according to the police that examined it; and which scope did not have to be shimmed to line up the scope with the barrel, as Oswald's gun did when police test fired it.

Actually, the "jet effect" mentioned is a common phenomenon.

Though of course I do not believe the shot came from the knoll.

No, its not. Since the advent of cinema there have probably been lots of films of victims being shot, and I challenge you to come up with any that shows this strange "jet effect." An object hit by a bullet always recoils in the direction the missile is traveling. Elementary physics.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by starviego]

Originally posted by ChiliDog
The kennedy assasination leaves so many questions that its almost impossible to know where to begin, but a few things are quite clear to me. If you study the Z film carefully, you will see that

1) His head does indeed move forward slighlty before the violent backwards motion.

2) upon the apparent missile impact, ejecta flies MOSTLY forward from what we can see in the video, including what appears to be a sizeable chunk of bone (the Harper fragment, perhaps?)

JFK and Governer Connally both react seemingly at the same time - JFK pulls his hands up, and connaly jerks a bit, at the PRECISE same moment, right as JFK comes out from behind the sign.

These theings are almost undebateable.

On the flip side, there is evidence that makes it hard to believe that Oswald did it. The fact that he made it to the lunchroom without being out of breath or disturbed in any way, WITH a cold coke in his hand fresh out of the machine, within 60-90 seconds.

The autopsy photos, which contradict even THEMSELVES.

The testimony of the doctors at Parkland that day, and the testimony of DP witnesses. Almost ALL agree that the right REAR portion of his skull was blown off, blown away, blasted, etc. That certainly is not consistent with a shot from the TSBD building.


BUT - I said all that to say THIS - NEITHER are either of these scenarios consistent with a shot from the grassy knoll area. Jackie likely would have been injured by such a shot. It's a much sharper angle than most realize, and quite simply doesnt work for any of the injuries seen in the Z-film, described by the docs, or shown in the autopsy photos.

Hi CD,

Thank you; this is something I've been trying to get across in previous posts. I have a feeling that the grassy knoll show was also a diversionary shot. If you look in some of the famous books, by Lane, Lifton and others, you'll see a picture of people on the grass across the street pointing to the ground where they claim a bullet struck. I agree the angle and the shot window from the knoll was much too short to be viable, because the bullet would possibly have hit JBK.

My feeling is that the fatal shot was fired from the stormdrain, but not the one at street level - the one over by the bridge. I think that may even have been bricked up by now. Some reports mention that there was a car parked over the manhole covering that opening on the bridge, so no one could try to open it. The other exit lead down a long tunnel past the railroad yards, making for a great escape.

I also have a feeling that the Z-film was altered in some places. You've probably looked at James Fetzer's book where he talks about some of those. The 'blob' definitely looks painted on. I actually did a false-color analysis of that and it looks exactly like it was painted on top of the film then re-photographed. It's got a very high refractive index. In addition the 'spray' only lasts two frames of film. That's an impossibility.

A shot from the knoll, if it hit, would have definitely sprayed Jackie with bone and brain matter. As it was, the motorcycle cop, Bobby Hargis, riding at the rear of the limo, was sprayed instead, giving an almost exact trajectory from the storm drain. Jackie was bloody, but from later, when she cradled his head.

Good post.



[edit on 6-3-2007 by Badge01]

Originally posted by starviego
The version of the Z film that shows a large blob in the front of the head at the moment of impact is a fraud. The undoctored version shows two large flaps of skin 'splaying' up and out on either side of the tangential entrance wound through the right temple, though the two pieces remained attached to the scalp by skin tissue. Jackie carefully folded the pieces back into position as she cradled his head. At least one doctor at Parkland noticed a seam of raised, swollen tissue in the right temple where the fatal shot entered.

A motorcycle cop riding off to the left, rear of the presidential limo was hit by brain and bone matter, so hard that the officer thought that he himself had been shot. This is strongly indicative of a shot coming from the right, front of the vehicle, about where the grassy knoll was located.

And of course look at the reaction of all the witnesses in Dealey Plaza at the time. A large crowd ran in that direction immediately afterwards. Photographs immediately afterwards show motorcade watchers all looking in that direction. Between 2/3 to 3/4 of all witenesses heard shots from that direction. All the witnesses closest to the grassy knoll said the shots came from behind the fence. The Sheriff and Police Chief, riding in the car ahead of the president, both initially ordered their officers to that area via radio.
And at least one witness said he saw a man with a rifle running from the area behind the fence.

I think you're mostly right, but the shot from the knoll probably missed. It was far too shallow an angle to have hit JFK and also sprayed Bobby Hargis. The angle down to the street from the fence is quite steep also, making it hard to find the right angle to hit JFK and not anyone else in the limo. Plus the shot window was fairly narrow to track. The storm drain near the bridge would have had the longest shot window lasting several seconds as the limo came right at them getting closer and closer (not farther and farther away was it would from any rear shot).

There were probably two shots that missed - the one that chipped the stone curb that injured James Teague in the cheek came, most likely, from the Dal-Tex building. The GN shot was a diversion for the storm drain shot, I think.

It helps to get a good overhead map and using a straight edge and draw some lines. One thing that people report when they visit DP is that it's a lot smaller than one might think.

[edit on 6-3-2007 by Badge01]

"No, its not. Since the advent of cinema there have probably been lots of films of victims being shot, and I challenge you to come up with any that shows this strange "jet effect." An object hit by a bullet always recoils in the direction the missile is traveling. Elementary physics."


True enough in most cases. There exists, however, an effect referred to as "backspatter" in which a small amount of matter is propelled towards the direction the missile originated from. Of course, most of the matter is still propelled in the direction of the missile's path. In some cases, it is enough to propel the object being struck towards the misile's point of origin. A video exists of this occuring with an apple. The original website that hosted it no longer exists, but I will post it once I find it again.

Something else to keep in mind - the violent backwards reaction that we see JFK make is problematic no matter how you look at it. It has never been (IMO) sufficiently explained. A bullet simply doesnt cause that much motion. If it were able to do that, then the person who fired it would have experienced pretty much the most forceful recoil in history, and likely been too injured to make an escape.

Elementary physics.



[edit on 3/7/2007 by ChiliDog]

[edit on 3/7/2007 by ChiliDog]

[edit on 3/7/2007 by ChiliDog]

Anyone who has been hunting and killed with a rifle or handgun knows for a fact that the shot came from the front, not from the back!

Pretty good discussion.

Some of the newest information seems to point to the original kill shot being planned to occur just as the Limo turned the corner from Houston St. to Elm, but the Limo took too wide a turn and the shot missed. This caused the 'teams' to go to plan B. I can't speak to the probability of this scenario, but as you know the Z-film suddenly jumps going from frame 132 to 133 and there's about 30 seconds missing.

In that 30 seconds the lead car a "rolling command car," which was an unmarked Dallas police car, driven by Chief of Police Curry and occupied by Secret Service Agents Sorrels went past. The flanking motorcycles had already been ordered to pull back to the rear of the Limo.

In addition some people say the limo turned the corner too wide and may have even bumped into the opposite curb and had to straighten out.

There's the possibility that some of the weapons were silenced.

Though one tries to employ the simplest possible scenario, it appears that certain of the shooters were ordered to fire shots which were not designed to hit the target but to misdirect witnesses.

There may have been a shooter in the Dallas County Records building, to the right of the TSBD, and a shooter and spotter on the roof of the Dal-Tex building where a case was found that appeared to be a sabot, or a crimped cartridge, which could fire a round designed for a smaller caliber. Either of those shooters may have been designated to make the actual hit, mimicking the trajectory from the TSBD or at least a shot from behind.

There was also reportedly a .45 caliber slug found in the grass across from the GN by Dallas deputy sheriff Buddy Walthers (and allegedly confiscated by an 'FBI agent'). Some people theorize that this was the shot that people felt was fired above or inside the limo.

It may have come from the street level storm drain, or it may have been a special weapon like a Remingtion Fireball a pistol sized weapon which fires a rifle bullet. It's possible that witnesses mistook the special bullet alleged to be used in the Fireball for a .45.

The problem with all of this is that it's just too complex. I think the majority of conspiracy theorists believe there were at least three 'hit teams', consisting of a spotter and a shooter, and that there was a shooter on the Dal-Tex building and possibly one in either or both of the storm drain. Some people think there was a team in the opposing pergola across the street.

I think it makes sense that they'd have a team or two behind the limo to mimic the TSBD trajectory and at least one team in the front to serve as 'clean up'.

I think it also makes sense that they were instructed not to shoot any of the other occupants in the cars. If not, then the most logical method would be to shoot the driver of the limo and the driver of the QM follow car. Then they could pick off JFK at their leisure.

The teams may or may not have all been aware of each others' existence.

I believe that at least some of the SS agents were in on the plot, most likely SSA Kellerman and Greer. My evidence for this is the action or inaction of the agents during the shooting.

A SS agent is supposed to throw his body over that of the President in the event of even the hint of trouble. Thus Kellerman should have jumped in the back seat at the first hint of trouble back before they even went behind the Stemmons Freeway sign and forced JFK to the floorboards and Greer should have floored it.

In addition lots of SS directives were not followed, including stationing of more men on the route, mandating all windows in tall building be closed, no turns greater than a certain angle, and maintaining of a minimal speed.

Recently there has been footage shown that seems to imply that SS agents may have been specifically ordered not to ride on the back of JFK's car and one agent was left at the airport. Since SSA Sorrels was in charge in Dallas, it's hard to exclude him as being included.

The DPD was also in on it to some extent, because it's clear that they pulled back the motorcycles which were supposed to lead and flank the Limo.

Those planning the motorcade were also in on it, or at least complicit, because the order of the cars were non-standard. The press car was normally near the front and it was put several cars back.

In addition the Dept of the Navy appears to be involved because they directed the initial phases of the autopsy to prevent documenting and probing of the wound tracks. Those responsible for loading and handling the coffin also appear to have some involvement.

So it was a conspiracy at a very high level.

We now hear about some military programs like Mkultra etc. in a strange way, I could then imagine that Jackie could have been used to deliver the final shot herself. Was there a gun shot entry wound on the left side of his head? Just a thought.