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Islamic Achievements in Math was 500 Years Ahead of the West

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posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 10:16 AM
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You know, looking over the article, there's no way that these were all independantly and coincidentally hit upon. Someone, or some group of people, figured it out first, and other people learned it from them (and the article does in fact note that there ARE manuscripts that at least illustrate the designs, but it doesn't say if they explain the rationale).

How that first group came up with it would have to be another story, but it doesn't seem like it can pop up through simple trial and error, there must've been some degree of investigation.




posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 10:23 AM
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Ugh, more of "islam educated the ignorant west" propaganda. Sound slike the nation of islam trying to be condescending on middle age europeans.


I will grant you that the muslims were responsible for algebra, an advanced mathematical concept at the time, but they really didnt achieve anything that I would call revolutionary. The one man people should be taking about is Isaac Newton. This guy was a pure genius and although he lived in the 17th century, it was because of people like him that the west is where it today and the muslims in the middle east are still dirt farmers.

I mean Isaac Newton was looking for a way to explain how gravity controlled heavenly bodies, no problem! just invent calculus! He did. I dont care if you want to slam the west or not for the dark ages, the fact is a great del of our modern science came from inventors/astronomers/mathematicians/scientists in the west, not the middlle east.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 10:43 AM
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It could be interesting to find out where the math comes from, but that they didn't produce any proof in a mathematical sense doesn't necessary mean they didn't understand it.

I'm willing to discuss it, but ...sorry I have to go to bed now, it's late.

I'll be back in eight hours.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 10:53 AM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Ugh, more of "islam educated the ignorant west" propaganda. Sound slike the nation of islam trying to be condescending on middle age europeans.


I see that yet another well "educated" westerner, with a slight case of Islamophobia is completly ignorant, just because this topic is about Islamic advantage in all fields of Science, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Medicine, Architecture and so on and so on. See in those days, Islamic cities such as Baghdad, Damascus, Cairo and Cordoba were the centers of civilization. These cities were flourishing and Muslim scientists made tremendous progress in applied as well as theoretical Science and Technology.

In Europe, however, the situation was much different. Europe was in the Dark Ages. It had no infrastructure or central government. To the Muslims, Europe was backward, unorganized, carried no strategic importance and was essentially irrelevant. This considering the time period was in fact true. Nevertheless the Catholic Church successfully convinced Christian Europe that the Muslims were infidels, when in fact when compared the state of Europe in Dark Ages to the Islamic cities and countries at that time, the Europeans looked more like wild animals, that just climed down from the nearest tree.



I will grant you that the muslims were responsible for algebra, an advanced mathematical concept at the time, but they really didnt achieve anything that I would call revolutionary. The one man people should be taking about is Isaac Newton. This guy was a pure genius and although he lived in the 17th century, it was because of people like him that the west is where it today and the muslims in the middle east are still dirt farmers.

Ah come on. The Mayan's had bigger knowledge of Astronomy then all the astronomers of Europe combined for centuries. Yes Isaac was a genious but he also did not discover something "NEW" for the entire Globe - just for those ignorant few Europeans, who were "Dumbified" by the Church. If somebody would say that Earth is round, he would be declared a Heretic and burned. That is how the Church was dealing with Science, so no wonder that the Europe was behind Muslim countries.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:16 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Ah come on. The Mayan's had bigger knowledge of Astronomy then all the astronomers of Europe combined for centuries. Yes Isaac was a genious but he also did not discover something "NEW" for the entire Globe


Well, apparently you havent been very well educated or you would know tht Isaac Newton did do something "new." Did you not read where I told you he invented calculus? besides earlier works by kepler and gallileo, he proposed the fundamental force in the universe known as gravity!

In fact, I would argue that it was the muslims, who copied their knowledge from earlier sources, who did nothing "new."



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:30 AM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Well, apparently you havent been very well educated or you would know tht Isaac Newton did do something "new." Did you not read where I told you he invented calculus? besides earlier works by kepler and gallileo, he proposed the fundamental force in the universe known as gravity!

So mister Newton "invented" calculus all by himself?

Nobody before him tried?

He just started from scratch?


Calculus

The history of calculus falls into several distinct periods, most notably the Greek, Indian, and European periods.

The Greek period introduced some of the ideas of integral calculus, but does not seem to have developed these ideas in a rigorous or systematic way. Eudoxus (circa 408 BCE - circa 355 BCE) used the method of exhaustion, which prefigures the concept of the limit, to calculate areas and volumes. Archimedes (circa 287 BCE - 212 BCE) developed this idea further, inventing heuristics which resemble integral calculus.

Indian mathematics, largely unknown in the west until the 20th century, produced a number of works with some ideas of calculus. The mathematician-astronomer Aryabhata in 499 CE used a notion of infinitesimals and expressed an astronomical problem in the form of a basic differential equation.

Manjula, in the 10th century, elaborated on this differential equation in a commentary. This equation eventually led Bhaskara in the 12th century to develop a proto-derivative representing infinitesimal change, and describe an early form of "Rolle's theorem".

In the 14th century, Madhava, along with other mathematician-astronomers of the Kerala School, described special cases of Taylor series which are treated in the text Yuktibhasa.

It has been recently conjectured that the discoveries of the Kerala School were transmitted to Europe.

Interesting no?

And the fact that you claim Newton "invented" all by himself is also not correct:


History of calculus

In the 15th century, a German cardinal named Nicholas of Cusa argued that rules made for finite quantities lose their validity when applied to infinite ones, thus putting to rest Zeno's paradoxes.

In 17th century Europe, Isaac Barrow, Pierre de Fermat, Blaise Pascal, John Wallis and others discussed the idea of a derivative.

René Descartes introduced the foundation for the methods of analytic geometry in 1637, providing the foundation for calculus later introduced by Isaac Newton AND Gottfried Leibniz, independently of each other.

Historically, there was much debate over whether it was Newton or Leibniz who first "invented" calculus. This argument, the Newton v. Leibniz calculus controversy between the German Leibniz and the English Newton, was at the heart of a rift in the mathematical community of the two countries. Much of the credit for the resolution goes to the Analytical Society.

Yet you know that mister Newston "invented" calculus all by himself - at least you write about him like that, as if so many scientists that worked on that same topic centuries before him, do not mean anything. Like mister Gottfried Leibniz for example - you did not mention his name and he is probably as important when talking about calculus as Newton is.

And what's about that knowledge from Kerala School were transmitted to Europe?

[edit on 24/2/07 by Souljah]



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:31 AM
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BOLIVIA has the same type of thing in it's weaving and art.

The math that you and I would have to do to make the beautiful weavings and art works that are found in Bolivia would make your head hurt. But the native indians of that country literally do it with their eyes closed. Most of these artists can't read or write, and they can't do math on paper, but they do art-math in their weavings. It's a knowledge and ability that is passed down from the artist to the children. They don't even know they are doing math when they are creating their weavings and art work .. they just create the art and the math-part of the project 'just happens' along with the art.

It's hard to explain.

SIDE STORY -

While we were in Bolivia to adopt our daughter we heard about how (allegedly) math brilliant the indian artists and weavers were. We wondered if our daughter would inherit any extra abilities in that area.
NOPE. Math is her worst subject. She's getting an A .. but it's her worst subject and she hates music, which is very mathmatical.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:35 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
this topic is about Islamic advantage in all fields of Science, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Medicine, Architecture and so on and so on. See in those days, ...


Let's stop there for a minute. 'in those days'.

There is no 'Islamic advantage' in any field. There USED to be many hundreds of years ago. But not now.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:42 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan

Originally posted by Souljah
this topic is about Islamic advantage in all fields of Science, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Medicine, Architecture and so on and so on. See in those days, ...


Let's stop there for a minute. 'in those days'.

There is no 'Islamic advantage' in any field. There USED to be many hundreds of years ago. But not now.



That is because the Christains were so barbaric Islam was crushed.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:47 AM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
There is no 'Islamic advantage' in any field. There USED to be many hundreds of years ago. But not now.

So you admit that Islamic Achievements "back in those days" were superior to anything from the Europe or the rest of the West?

Your intolerance towards an entire religious group of a Billion people is just too obvious.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:48 AM
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Originally posted by XphilesPhan
Ugh, more of "islam educated the ignorant west" propaganda.


No one is saying that.



Originally posted by FlyersFan
There is no 'Islamic advantage' in any field. There USED to be many hundreds of years ago. But not now.


No one is saying that there is either.

Funny isn't it? Same old posters, same old fear and hate.




posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:00 PM
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Knowledge in regards to such things aren't always collective endevours by a society but more individualistic. The Catholic Church along with Islamic rulers impeded great deal of knowledge and progress in the regard of science, philosophy, medicine and so forth. I don't see any reason to even label it as an accolade for Islam yet instead one for whomever was responsible for the commissioning of this Mosque and those that created it. Of course they must have been educated or were auto-didactic, which also speaks volumes of their relative sphere of influence upon them. The Mosques artwork does represent a sort of conceptualization which can only be reflected by a heightened intellect regardless of what people may think. This was not a serendipitous event in the history of Islamic architecture.

Nothing is invented by the way..

This seems to have become a thread to belittle on culture, ideology or whatever compared to another. Is that really important? Don't we violence Islam enough with our failed and mundane understanding of it's history or that we selectively use violent outbursts which occur periodically throughout history universally to the furtherness of our fears of it?

Luxifero




[edit on 24-2-2007 by Luxifero]



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:03 PM
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Originally posted by LoneGunMan
That is because the Christains were so barbaric Islam was crushed.


It's been hundreds of years. Now radical Islamics are crushing their fellow muslims. You can't blame the lack of Islamic scientific advancements on the west. The Islamic countries only have themselves to blame.


Originally posted by Souljah
So you admit that Islamic Achievements "back in those days" were superior to anything from the Europe or the rest of the West?


Yes, that is my understanding.


Your intolerance towards an entire religious group of a Billion people is just too obvious.


yeah, right.
Because I pointed out that there has been NO ADVANCEMENT from that sector in hundreds of years? That isn't 'intollerance'. It's just a fact.


Originally posted by Implosion
No one is saying that there is either.


Yes, Souljah did. Here's the EXACT QUOTE once again, since you obviously missed it.


Originally posted by Souljah
this topic is about Islamic advantage in all fields of Science, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Medicine, Architecture and so on and so on.


Now perhaps Souljah was trying to say something different that didn't come across very well ... but it seems very clearly spoken to me.


Funny isn't it? Same old posters, same old fear and hate.


Get over yourself. Telling the fact that Islamic countries are no longer superior in any field (Science, Math, Astronomy, Chemistry, Medicine, Architecture) is NOT fear and hate. :shk: They were hundreds of years ago, but not anymore. That's not 'hate', that's just a fact. Deal with it.

Edited ONCE for spelling.

[edit on 2/24/2007 by FlyersFan]



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Yes, Souljah did. Here's the EXACT QUOTE once again, since you obviously missed it.


Originally posted by Souljah
this topic is about Islamic advantage in all fields of Science, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Medicine, Architecture and so on and so on.




That's called quoting somebody out of context. Well done. Very clever.

Obviously we're talking about times past. It's purely your insecurity that made you correct a statement that nobody made.


Originally posted by FlyersFan
Get over yourself.





Originally posted by FlyersFan
Telling the fact that Islamic countries are no longer superior in any field (Science, Math, Astronomy, Chemistry, Medicine, Architecture) is NOT fear and hate. :shk: They were hundreds of years ago, but not anymore. That's not 'hate', that's just a fact. Deal with it.


No one said that they were.

I guess by telling you that, I'm a supporter of "Islamofascists"? Or is it "Anti-American"?

What simple minded crap.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:31 PM
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The European enlightment begun from Middle East!

Not only Maths, the muslims have developed and their Alchemy (Chemistry) before Christians

Alchemy

Alchemy in Medieval Europe

Painting by Joseph Wright of Derby, 1771Because of its strong connections to the Greek and Roman cultures, alchemy was rather easily accepted into Christian philosophy, and Medieval European alchemists extensively absorbed Islamic alchemical knowledge. Gerbert of Aurillac, who was later to become Pope Silvester II, (d. 1003) was among the first to bring Islamic science to Europe from Spain. Later men such as Adelard of Bath, who lived in the 12th century, brought additional learning. But until the 13th century the moves were mainly assimilative. (Hollister p. 124, 294)

and we know that the development in the Chemical/Alchemic branch, Maths are important...

Also the had paper long ago before Europeans...

Paper

The first paper mill in Europe was in Spain, at Xavia (modern Valencia) in 1120. More mills appeared in Fabriano Italy in about the 13th century, as an import from Islamic Spain. They used hemp and linen rags as a source of fiber. The oldest known paper document in the West is the Mozarab Missal of Silos from the 11th century, probably written in the Islamic part of Spain. Paper is recorded as being manufactured in both Italy and Germany by 1400, just about the time when the woodcut printmaking technique was transferred from fabric to paper in the old master print and popular prints.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:35 PM
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Originally posted by Implosion
That's called quoting somebody out of context.


Nope. It looks very clear. If this is NOT what Souljah intended to say, then Souljah should better explain himself.


It's purely your insecurity that made you correct a statement that nobody made.


I'm definately NOT insecure .. and Souljah DID make the statement.


No one said that they were.

Again .. it is very clear that Souljah did.


I guess by telling you that, I'm a supporter of "Islamofascists"? Or is it "Anti-American"? What simple minded crap.


What a very strange thing for you to say. You insult yourself and then insult me for YOU insulting yourself (when I didn't say anything).
Whacky.
Strange.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by FlyersFan
Nope. It looks very clear. If this is NOT what Souljah intended to say, then Souljah should better explain himself.


I can argue semantics with you all day.


Originally posted by Souljah
I see that yet another well "educated" westerner, with a slight case of Islamophobia is completly ignorant, just because this topic is about Islamic advantage in all fields of Science, Mathematics, Astronomy, Chemistry, Medicine, Architecture and so on and so on. See in those days....


The important section is bolded, to aid your selective vision.

"In those days" implying in times past. History. The history of these countries, which is in fact, what this thread is all about.

I sincerely hope, that you're just trolling, because, it really isn't a tough concept to grasp.




posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 02:30 PM
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The Muslims were not "ahead" of the west in math. Before they went on their Jihads, they were backwards desert dwellers.

The "advances" the possesed weren't theirs, they were the pillaged legacy of the Greeks, Romans, Egyptians, and babylonians. not to mention India and Persia.

They made very little advancement on the advances they took from their defeated subjects. In fact, Islam never grew on anything. They stayed at the same level, while other empires grew and advanced.

The Buddists and Taoists were far ahead of anything in the Muslim world.

By the way, the number zero wasn't an Islamic invention. The Hindu Indians had that one covered long before Muhammed was an itch in his daddy's pants.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 02:55 PM
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They made very little advancement on the advances they took from their defeated subjects. In fact, Islam never grew on anything. They stayed at the same level, while other empires grew and advanced.

It's becouse the never affected by the movement of atheism. When the Europeans abandoned their religious addiction, they thrived. Muslims on the other hand remained sticked to their religion.
The good things that the Arabian world did to Europeans was to offer them all the preserved knowledge to Europeans and signs the horns of the enlightment.

Religion always see things from a negative and traditional way of thinking towards anything new.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 03:00 PM
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The were smarter earlier and yet they are still the way they are. They kill and maim all who refuse to believe as they do.



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