Yeshu ben Pantera

Reading this thread i started searching to see what i could find out about Joseph ben Pantera.

I then came upon this site and the following post by a user named awfultruth

Here his post :

A mythological being can't be killed. Jesus Christ is a mythological being. Yeshu ben Pantera was a man, a Jewish healer with amazing powers, and he was killed, stoned to death along with his five disciples by Jewish religious authorities all by themselves, no Romans involved whatsoever. Yeshu was then hung on a tree as per Jewish Law, which Paul refers to in Gal 3:13.

The real story of Jesus is the story of Yeshu ben Pantera and Miriam ben Stada his mother Miriam the hairdresser who adulterous affair with Joseph ben Pantera, a Roman mercenary, produced Yeshu who learned magic arts in Egypt and "led many astray" according to the Talmud where one can find this information so carefully hidden away from Gentile eyes.

It certainly sounds intresting to read his post and i was wondering is there some truth to what he writes?
Does anyone have any good information regarding Yeshu ben Pantera and Miriam ben Stada ?
And the Talmud, where this is written?





[edit on 24-2-2007 by Fett Pinkus]

This site can answer your questions: p069.ezboard.com...

Yeishu ha Notzri, Jesus or Jesua, or Yeshua or Joshua ben Pantera or Pentera or Pandera or Pandira, there are even several first-century Christian references to this supposed miracle worker.

If he was the Teacher of Righteousness referred to by the Dead Sea Scrolls, as some have suggested, his impact on the movement towards Jewish reform was considerable. And if he was the Teacher of Righteousness, it would answer a lot of interesting questions, such as the scattered first century Christian and Talmudic references to a miracle worker named Yeishu ha Notzri, known to first-century Christians as Jesus or Jesua ben Pantera. Among them are a quote from Origen, saying that his arch-rival Celsus had heard from a Jew in Jerusalem that "Jesus Ben Pantera" was born of Mary as the result of a rape by a Roman soldier named Pantera, and had borne the baby in secret (most scholars now regard this claim to be a first-century legend resulting from misinterpretation of the facts).

That the first century Christians may have feared there was some truth to this rumor is evidenced by the fact of Mark's obvious embarrassment regarding the origins of Jesus; Mark, the first writer of a canonic gospel, never mentions Joseph as the actual husband of Mary. Note also that it was both the Roman custom and the custom of the Jews to include a patrilineal surname as part of a person's full name; yet nowhere in the New Testament does the surname of Jesus, (or Joseph, for that matter) appear. There is at least one Talmudic reference to Jeshu as being the illegitimate son of an adultress named Mary Magdala. There are several interesting references to a Yeishu ha Notzri (note the resemblance of the name to "Jesus of Nazareth"), who traveled around and practiced magic during the reign of Alexander Janneus, who ruled Palestine from 104 to 78 BCE. As these references are Talmudic (from the Baraitas and the Gemara), and therefore presumed by Christian scholars to be anti-Christian; Christian apologeticists have simply dismissed them as referring to someone else or being fabricated propaganda. But if they are genuine, and they really do refer to the Jesus of whom the Christians speak, they add evidence to the claim that the Jesus of Nazareth story is really based on the life of Yieshu ha Notzri, possibly the Essene "Teacher of Righteousness." Evidence points to him being the founder of the Notzri as the sects were known in first century Palestine, and as the Jesus Movements to modern scholars.

It must be noted here is that the version of the Talmud still used by most modern Christian scholars, is normally the version known to have been heavily edited by Christians by the 16th century - presumably to remove the dangerous references to Yeishu ha Notzri and his followers, the Notzrim, the account of which is absent from this version. But the pristine version, still used by Jewish scholars, gives us some rich detail. Yeishu ha Notzri was considered by the temple authorities of the time to be a troublemaking heretic, and when they had finally had enough of him, they put him on trial. He was convicted of heresy, sentenced to wander the city for 40 days, with a crier going before him, shouting that if anyone had reason why he should not be executed, they should come forward. When no did, he was stoned to death, and his body hung from a tree on the eve of passover, in 88 B.C.E. Note the death on the eve of passover. Note also the hanging of the body from a tree - at the time, a sign of despicability, with its resemblance to the crucifixion myth.

I'll add some more in a separate post.

Copies of the uncensored pre-1631 texts can be found in Oxford University and several other European libraries. Thus the statements about Jesus were never actually ‘lost.' They were published separately in numerous editions and studied by Jewish scholars in private. No one denies these facts any more... While the Soncino edition of the Babylonian Talmud is a censored text, the editors usually give the uncensored original readings in a footnote. We have put the statements about Jesus back into the text where they originally belonged and have indicated this by [ ]." (Morey, pp. 1-2)


R. Papa said: When the Mishnah states a MESITH IS A HEDYOT, it is only in respect of hiding witnesses. For it has been taught: And for all others for whom the Torah decrees death, witnesses are not hidden, excepting for this one. How is it done?- A light is lit in an inner chamber, the witnesses are hidden in an outer one [which is in darkness], so that they can see and hear him, but he cannot see them. Then the person he wishes to seduce says to him, "Tell me privately what thou hast proposed to me"; and he does so. Then he remonstrates; "But how shall we forsake our God in Heaven, and serve idols?" If he retracts, it is well. But if he answers: "It is our duty and seemly for us," the witnesses who were listening outside bring him to Beth din, and have him stoned. ["And thus they did to Ben Stada in Lydda, and they hung him on the even of Passover." Ben Stada was Ben Pandira. R. Hisda said: The husband was Stada, the paramour Pandira. But as not the husband Pappos b. Judah?-His mother's name was Stada. But his mother was Miriam, a dresser of woman's hair?-As they say in Pumpbaditha, This woman has turned away (satath da) from her husband, (i.e. committed adultery).] (Morey, p. 6)

Morey quotes from the Soncino edition of the Babylonian Talmud:


Footnote in Soncino: "Supposed by Tosah, to be the Mother of Jesus; cf. Shab. 104b in the earlier uncensored editions. Her description Megaddela (hairdresser) is connected by some with the name of Mary Magdalene whose name was confused with the name of Mary, the mother of Jesus." (Ibid., p. 7)

Some scholars also see an allusion to the virgin birth of Christ in the term, "son of Pandira." This is due to the fact that "Pandira" seems to be a play on the Greek word for virgin, parthenos, the very term used in the Gospels of Matthew and Luke when recording Jesus' virgin birth. McDowell & Wilson report:


"... Scholars have debated at length how Jesus came to have this name (i.e., ben Pandira) attached to his. Strauss thought it was from the Greek word pentheros, meaning 'son-in-law.' Klausner and Bruce accept the position that panthera is a corruption of the Greek parthenos meaning 'virgin.' Klausner says, 'The Jews constantly heard that the Christians (the majority of whom spoke Greek from the earliest times) called Jesus by the name "Son of the Virgin"... and so, in mockery, they called him Ben ha-Pantera, i.e., "son of the leopard."'... The theory most sensational but least accepted by serious scholars was dramatized by the discovery of a first century tombstone at Bingerbruck, Germany. The inscription read, 'Tiberius Julius Abdes Pantera, an archer, native of Sidon, Phoenicia, who in 9 c.e. was transferred to service in Germany.'... This discovery fueled the fire of the theory that Jesus was the illegitimate son of Mary and the soldier, Panthera. Even Origen writes that his opponent, Celsus, in circa A.D. 178, said that he heard from a Jew that 'Miriam' had become pregnant by 'Pantheras,' a Roman soldier; was divorced by her husband, and bore Jesus in secret.

Continued from above

"If 'Pantheras' were a unique name, the theory of Mary's pregnancy by the Roman soldier might be more attractive to scholars. But Adolf Deissman, the early twentieth-century German New Testament scholar, verified, by first century inscriptions, 'with absolute certainty that Panthera was not an invention of Jewish scoffers, but a widespread name among the ancients.'... Rabbi and Professor Morris Goldstein comments that it was as common as the names Wolf or Fox today. He comments further:

It is noteworthy that Origin himself is credited with the tradition that Panther was the appellation of James (Jacob), the father of Jospeh, the father of Jesus... So, too, Andrew of Crete, John of Damascus, Epiphanius the Monk, and the author of Andronicus of Constantinople's Dialogue Against the Jews, name Panther as an ancestor of Jesus...
"Jesus being called by his grandfather's name would also have agreed with a statement in the Talmud permitting this practice. Whereas Christian tradition identified Jesus by his home town, Jewish tradition, having a greater concern for genealogical identification, seems to have preferred this method of identifying Jesus. Goldstein presents more evidence to argue the case convincingly." (McDowell & Wilson, pp. 66-67)

cheers for the information Nebankh

sure does make you wonder when reading it doesnt it?

I certainly do wonder when hereing from born again christians that the NT is the only book to be believed, yet all these are books from the jews ie. Talmud etc which seem to be rather factual from a historical point of view are not to be taken into consideration by christians.

I wonder why?

[edit on 11-3-2007 by Fett Pinkus]

Very useful information. Sure makes one wonder and hopefully explore a little further. I found this site also that might be helpful.

Cheers from the rocky mountain area..

www.geocities.com...

Thanks for the link - lots of useful and checkable information here

Live and learn!

Nebankh

Thank you for your contributions! I am learning more about this version of the "Jesus story" every time you post.

I voted you a Way Above.

Totally unreliable, shows up too late in the historical record to be worth anything. Shows up first in a writing of Celsus 155 years after the estimated death of Jesus.

en.wikipedia.org...(Roman_soldier)
www.earlychristianwritings.com

Sorry mate - a Talmud section called Tol'doth Yeshua [1], which is believed to have been written around 33AD , refers to a Jesus Character as Yeshu Ben Pandera.

Wikipedia - especially the religious additions, is not to be trusted.

Celsus referred to the story, fair enough, but was not the first.

RKYMTNHI this guy nebankh is a TALMUD apologist. Usually these people will deny the fact if it stared them in the eye as they deneid Jesus when he showed them all the miracles.

Like when the Muslims clearly states a man called Jesus his mother called mary, he healed, walked on water , his mother gave birth to him as a virgin, and the comming Messiah....etc only to turn round and say " Oh that is another Jesus and another Mary with all the Package. (this is the positive image of jesus out side Christianity)
Now using negative image of christ in Judaism also is denied, so what is the explination of this Jesus during his life time and after his life time? what a coincidence that their just happened to be another man named YESHU WITH A MOTHER MARY who healed and rose the dead(the reason for calling him a sorcerer) who was killed at around the age of 30-34...etc.

Anyway go to the web site of WWW.REVISIONISTHISTORY.ORG and hear it from the HORSES MOUHT Michael Hoffman, foremost scholar of Judaism .(the truth about the Talmud) makes hitler"s book sound like Snow white and the seven dwarfs.

Their is even a law calling for the KILLING of any jew who exposes the secrets of the Talmud.

The book of Job has a lot of earasing of words and sentenses and phrases

The dead sea scrolls also has a lot of earasings and mentions a wicked preist thought to be jesus but the Israeli Government wiped it out to stop contraversy. (the yeshu that Nebank is excusing was not a preist!!) so it cannot be him.

Also go to the site of another American jew who immigrated to Israel and saw the truth : WWW.TRUTHSEEKER.CO.UK .

The real Talmud with the Unedited words and Sentenses are kept hidden away from public and another edition with omitted words is printed to the Public eg: when SPEILBURG used for his SHINDLER'S LIST poster a talmudic quote he as instructed by the elders to change a word " WHOEVER DESTROYS THE LIFE OF A SINGLE HUMAN BEING...IT IS AS IF HE DESTROYED AN ENTIRE WORLD; AND WHOEVER PRESERVE THE LIFE OF A SINGLE HUMAN BEING ...IT IS AS IF HE HAD PRESERVED AN ENTIRE WORLD" yet the HESRONOT HA-SHAS points out that these are not the authentic words of the ORIGINAL TALMUD. The omitted words were to save the soul of ISRAEL and not of any one else.

Your HAIR WILL RISE UP WHEN YOU READ mORE SECRETS OF jUDAISM religion and laws.

1- CHILD ABUSE (SEX)
2- GENOCIDE (makes the Quran seem like a fairy tail in comparism)
3-RACISM ( even against their own of different colour)
4-LIES AND DECITE
5- NON JEWS BEING SUB HUMAN ANIMALS
6-HATRED OF JESUS AND MARY
7-HATRED OF CHRISTIANS
8-TALES OF HOLOCAUST (as in the number of death)
9-WOMEN'S RIGHTS ON DIVORCE
10- STONING TO DEATH OF ADULTRUSES AND BLASPHEMERS
11-MURDERING NON BELEIVERS( even their children)
12-PUNISHMENTS FOR CONVERTING AND FOLLOWING JESUS OR BECOMING CHRISTIANS.......etc

Lisa M

Im sorry but someone who seems to be a holocaust denier like Michael Hoffman is, doesnt merrit me checking out his site. He spews so much garbage that it isnt worth reading more into his information.

Instead of posting links to sites that are more suited for White Suprematists why not post some intresting links that show jesus more in a historical/biblical context ?

Did you even checkout the links mentioned in this thread?


Intresting site Thanks rkymtnhi

And as to Nebankh being an TALMUD apologist, so what? Even if this is true its not important.

Whats important is to check both sides of the story to understand something, this is the only way of really learning something in an unbiased way.

There is no reason to believe that this Yshu Ha Notzari ( some times called Yshu ben Pandera) is not Jesus christ.
Remember that these names are given to Jesus by his ENEMIES in the one and only book (Yshu Toleduth). Every thing in the story is about a man who claimed to be the Messiah his mother is Mary. He fly in the sky.
The only thing different is that in some versions of the book his story happened in the time of king Yuhanan who lived 150 BC.
However it is known that folkloric stories tend to mix times by mistake.

Again Yshu as we explained means ione thing only ( according to the writer of Yshu Toledoth) : May his name and mention be blotted forever. It is not a regular name that mothers give to their children . It is a curse name given by jews to people who claimed divinity of Messiahship.
However Jesus was the Messiah they mistaken him for a false messiah and so named him Yshu.

Christians a hundred years later managed to rescue their Master name by adding (a) to Yshu and hence became the name Joshua ( a heroic name) However the real name of Jesus is ISA ( meaning The Man of the STAR.
In a prophecy by Jacob ( now missing in the biblre but found in the bible of the Dead Sea scrolls' Essenes'Bible ( difinitely the original bible) says thata STAR will come from Levi ( Mary was a nun to the temple ( only Levites can give their children as nuns or slaved to the Temple) So was Jesus.

RKYMTNHI this guy nebankh is a TALMUD apologist. Usually these people will deny the fact if it stared them in the eye as they deneid Jesus when he showed them all the miracles.

I've never been called that before and I'm not even sure what it is; I've simply researched Jesus beyond the Gospels for 20 years...futhermore, I'm not sure what fact I'm supposed to have denied and also, who are the people who denied any miracles they saw?

You'll be happy to learn that I don't have a response to anything in your post as it makes absolutely no sense to me. You're obviously very angry for some reason.

Nebankh

Once again I would like to remind everybody that Yshu ben Pandera or Yshu Ha Notzari are voodoo names given by the pharaisees to Jesus Christ.
Their allegations in the Yshu Toleduth are lies and can't be trusted. You can not take the testimony of the enemy of a person against him, especially if those enemies are known to be bad guys (pharaisees)
As the Arab Poet once said " If Critisizing me comes from a lowly person---Then it is a certify I am complete"

adnanmuf,

How do you expect to be taken seriously, when you write things such as this?

Voodoo names? those enemies are known to be bad guys (pharaisees)?

It may be your generalised conclusion that the pharisees are 'bad guys' but that is not a persuasive response as you are obviously basing that conclusion on your upbringing, and your faith, not research.

As for 'voodoo names', you can claim that if you like, but it's the evidence of people around at the time that is more important to someone who is trying to make a balanced investigation. As my own faith doesn't depend on the outcome of a discussion such a this, I'd rather weigh up the evidence that I find independent of any 'faith' or evangelistic statements.

" If Critisizing me comes from a lowly person---Then it is a certify I am complete"
I'm very happy for you to believe you are complete. Congratulations.


Nebankh

No the poem is about Jesus being critisized by the pharaisees in Yeschu Toledoth), not about me!!

If you have read the story of Yeschu Toledoth then you already know what I am talking about (voodoo ) name.
Yeshu is the acronym of three letters Y and S and U ((Yemh Smu u'Zikru)) meaning ((May His name and mention be blotted forever)) so is that a voodoo name or not. Is that a curse name or not?
is that an appellation name or not?
is that a deragotery name or not?
You are one of them who plays dumb when cornered.

I wasn't playing dumb, neither do I feel cornered. I stated that your own conclusions do not persuade me that you are using anything other than your own beliefs to present your side in the discussion. Regardless of whether the name was 'voodoo', a curse, derogatory or not. If I'm trying to find evidence outside the gospels, I am not defending anyone's account, and by the same token, I'm not dismissing any account simply because a 'true believer' claims it was written by 'bad guys'.

I would definitely liek to see mroe information and less slander. GROW THE F**K UP!

Ok, now for the thread...

I see some very interesting points made.

Yes, we can say that a slanderous name "could" be given to someone when written about by a group of whom he was a dissenter. But, how do we link these two entities together in a more concrete fashion?

Also, I feel like there MUST be some information in a another religion that might open some doors for us in this search. Anyone familiar with any other religions in the same region of the world that might have historical record of ben'pantera or jesus?

just trying to get us in a direction of discussion rather than ranting..