Real Talk about White Privilege

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Just to clarify, I have NEVER said it does not exist.

Never. In fact, I have acknowledged its existence.

Indeed. My apologies if I made it sound that you were denying it.

Originally posted by Ceci2006
You did before. You didn't contribute much on this topic except "play the referee" instead of actually listening to what has been said. That is rather arrogant.

Are you capable of actually discussing the content here? Or do you have some quota where you need to take so many jabs before hitting the post reply button?

I will politely ignore any further "jabs" that you attempt.

Originally posted by Ceci2006
That's not being open-minded.

Actually, it is. My "caution" is merely to state that I am not diving in head first. I am here with an open-mind attempting to understand. I understand the lack of clarity on my initial "cautious" statement, and I hope that you can understand the context in which it was intended.

Originally posted by Ceci2006
You're still treating what we're saying in an accusatory tone.

And you are not being excused from this.

If I thought for a second I was getting a free ride from you guys, I think I would be offended. I say this joking and smiling of course. Surely we can minimize some of the tension here.

Originally posted by Ceci2006
You have. Not many white people are brave enough to discuss white privilege. So far, Duzey and shooterbrody were very open to discussing it. Others have tried to deny it or vent their anger toward people of color. I'm not so sure if you're doing the same.

I'm not here to vent anything. That is for sure. I am here to discuss, with an open mind. I hope you can accept that. If not, lets just pretend. I'm willing to settle for that in hopes of a reasonable discussion.

I'm also hoping that we can forget our history, and discuss this like reasonable adults. My slate with you has been wiped clean. If you can offer the same, I would appreciate it.

Originally posted by Ceci2006
But, really, which group of people started out with guns blazing to shoot the topic down?

Well, I hardly see how the minorities would want to shoot themselves in the foot to shoot this one down, but I see your point. And I do agree with you. I will refrain from pointing fingers at anyone here, other than myself. My behaviour in the past has been unacceptable. But I will not speak for you, your race, or my race. I will speak for myself.

There are other things that have been said that I am looking to address, but I can not at this point. My space bar is broke at the moment, so you can imagine how frustrating typing out this much has been.

Originally posted by chissler
I was out on the sidewalk for a moment about to walk into my place, and a native woman was in an old beater truck, with a smoke hanging from her lip, making a turn at the corner, doing about 20-30km/hour over the speed limit. My immediate reaction was... "Natives". It wasn't two seconds later I stopped walking and just thought for a moment. If she had of been white, would I of thought negatively as well? The gods honest truth... Yes I would have. But I would not of said... Whites! I would of said women, or some other term to indicate her socio-economic status. That is completely wrong, I know, but in those first seconds the mind just reacts.

By "native," you mean Native American, right?

I don't mean to cap on you, but this is a PRIME example of white privilege. The FIRST thought to your head was "she's breaking the law because of her race." And, you admit that if this were a white woman, you would NOT have attributed this to race.

Do you see how that shows how white people do NOT have their screw ups attributed to an innate flaw in their ENTIRE race? Do you see how, if this were a white woman, her race COULD NOT have been the reason for her speeding? Like I said, I ain't trying to spit on you, I'm just pointing this out.

And yes, this "epiphany" about White Privilege came to me after hearing this from two white people. Is that a positive, or a negative? Personally, I view it as a positive.

Why do you think this is a positive? Do you realize that you sound like the people the salesman I quoted spoke of? Again, I'm not trying to call you out, but you basically have said that you value the words of white people more than the words of black people.

I knew there was a reason some whites in here weren't hearing me, despite my posting source after source to back my statements. Now that you admitted these efforts I made meant spit to you compared to the words of your white colleagues, I'm wondering if my sources were mostly ignored because a black man (me) posted them...

Again, I'm not dogging you; actually, I'm thanking you for further validating white privilege.

In all honesty, and I do apologize, the fact that you guys are black, well it impacted how I viewed what you said. Again, I do apologize. But I did see it as self-interested and self-seeking. After hearing the same words being spoke by a highly respected colleague, who is white, I had to think to myself that maybe I overlooked this. My biggest response to this was that it was not evident in my area. After yesterday, I'm not so sure if that is true. I know I have not come across it, but to say it does not exist at all, that would not be justified.

Well...I can accept your apology for this. But, I STILL doubt that you will put much value on whatever I say in here, ESPECIALLY with regards to the words of a white person. I won't diss you for that, but that's going to be in my head whenever I'm involved in a discussion with you, regardless of the context the discussion is in.

And, like I said before, I don't ask for anyone to respect me here, but I can't help but notice that your HIGHLY respected colleague was influential in your current mind state...

What do I think? I don't know. I'm in a state of confusion.

It's aight to be confused right now. But, I think you wouldn't be so confused had you not assumed I was attacking you with my thread. As Ceci pointed out, it was white posters who were attacking me from the jump here. And, notice I didn't ask other white posters to condemn these people for attacking me. But, if the shoe were on the other foot...

Looks like my thread struck a nerve with these attackers, huh? Well, it is what it is...

Just so you are clear on this, I DO accept your apology. Really. But, my view on my words still stands.

Originally posted by chissler
Are you capable of actually discussing the content here? Or do you have some quota where you need to take so many jabs before hitting the post reply button?

I will politely ignore any further "jabs" that you attempt

This is another act of white privilege here. I cannot believe that after all the time I spent discussing this issue in the thread, that you would say this to me.

But, I'm with Truthseeka. I thank you for finding out about white privilege. But it is a shame that you couldn't believe that a person of color discussed it. You had to believe it when another white colleague told it to you.

As for "jabs", the next time, I'll ignore your patronising tone towards myself. Despite your new status, I still think that it isn't fair for you to determine what I'm capable of discussing or not. I'm sorry to say that to you, but it is another act of "not listening" and "dismissing" instead of taking what is being said. So, I think that listening should be a high priority when discussing this issue.

If you truly read what I posted to you, I said that I would reply to you later on your comments. However, I wanted to say what I felt about your "discovery". I accept the apology, but I guess that since this talk is based on cautiousness on your part, it helps to scrutinize you as deeply as well.




[edit on 28-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Nice pic Truth, even better story behind that pic.

Not knowing Truth and Ce's history with Chissler, Imho this guy is starting to agree with you and you guys are "pounding" him for it. Ease up. Lesser people would have just walked away and said no more.

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
BH, you're looking at it wrong. In an extremely round-about way, you've done nothing but reiterate the 'blacks who talk about racism are self-serving' thing.

Well, it must be EXTREMELY round about because I don't see how you come to that conclusion at all. Besides, what's wrong with taking care of one's self? What's wrong with serving one's own interest? In fact, I will say that most times, when blacks talk about race, it IS in the interest of themselves and others of their race. And I don't see anything wrong with that.

I don't have any hesitations to discuss race, myself. And you could say that it's self-serving, (not to the detriment of the truth or others) but it serves me to discuss race.

(In reality, the truly self-serving are those black people who take their degrees and go on to bigger and better things with nary a look back to the ghetto.)

And I don't see anything wrong with that, either. But, of course not being in your community, I don't have this experience. I understand why you feel that way about it, though. But, personally, I don't have a negative judgment about a person who becomes successful and never looks back to their "humble beginnings". Maybe they can't.

It's not about me, personally. It doesn't have to be. We are the sum of our parts, so when black men earn substantially less than white men for the same job, my community becomes poorer. That affects property taxes. That affects increases or decreases in property crimes. That affects us all.

I see what you mean. Thanks for explaining it.

All black people don't come from the ghetto, though. Not that that's relevant here, but sometimes It seems like there's an assumption that all black people are born in the ghetto and "talking about race" means "talking about black people". These two assumptions bug me.

So, I ask you, BH, should I not care? Should I not be involved, because I'm educated enough and thin enough and whatever enough to have that choice?

I'm not saying whether you should or shouldn't care. I wouldn't judge you either way. And as I think I have made clear, if you want to be involved, I think it's great. I commend you for what you do (not that what I think matters very much in the scheme of things.)

Let me just say, though, that I have never gotten the impression that you see yourself or your race as a victim or that you use your race as a crutch. You recognize your success and take responsibility for where you are and who you are. That's the impression I get anyway.

Which demonstrates another white privilege. Since when has anyone from the dominant culture have the right to say who is using their race as a crutch and whether anyone is a victim or not? That is the one thing that I cannot understand.

What does being a victim or using race as a crutch have to do with "white privilege"?

And do people of color have the right to think and say that white people are using their race as a crutch if white people get unearned benefits from white privilege?

Does anyone ever think how patronising and arrogant that sounds to give a pronouncement whether anyone (i.e. a person of color) is using race as a crutch or is being a victim for simply talking about their experiences in society afforded to race?

Or does white privilege give white people the freedom and entitlement not to think about how their words affect others--especially when they are people of color?

That's what I'd like to know from Chissler or shooterbrody. And, yes, I will answer Chissler's questions later on tonight. I'm just popping in right now.

[edit on 28-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Which demonstrates another white privilege. Since when has anyone from the dominant culture have the right to say who is using their race as a crutch and whether anyone is a victim or not? That is the one thing that I cannot understand.

Having an opinion is "white privilege"? Because that is all it really is an opinion. Just because someone calls another a victim doesn't make it so. Just because someone says another is using race as a crutch doesn't make it so. Anyone,regardless of intelligence, is entitled to their opinion. Would you rather people did not have opinions?

And do people of color have the right to think and say that white people are using their race as a crutch if white people get unearned benefits from white privilege?

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Do you think people of color are less entitled to an opinion? I don't.

Or does white privilege give white people the freedom and entitlement not to think about how their words affect others--especially when they are people of color?

It is not "white privilege" it is freedom of speech. A consequence of giving idiots freedom. Would you prefer less freedom? Again I don't know your history with chissler but I read your post, and it was not pleasant. Would you be surprised if he left and no longer took part in this?

Originally posted by truthseeka
I don't mean to cap on you, but this is a PRIME example of white privilege. The FIRST thought to your head was "she's breaking the law because of her race." And, you admit that if this were a white woman, you would NOT have attributed this to race.

Not race, but something. As whites are not a visible minority, I would of not contributed this to race. But the so-called "indicators" of socio-economic status would of been in the cross-hairs. Honestly, I see no difference. If I judge you on being black, or judge someone else for being poor, I think both are disgusting and have no place.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Do you see how that shows how white people do NOT have their screw ups attributed to an innate flaw in their ENTIRE race? Do you see how, if this were a white woman, her race COULD NOT have been the reason for her speeding? Like I said, I ain't trying to spit on you, I'm just pointing this out.

I hear you, and I agree. I do not try to hide the fact that my post reinforced white privilege. But understand that I am trying to overcome it, and I am ashamed for my immediate response.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Again, I'm not trying to call you out, but you basically have said that you value the words of white people more than the words of black people.

Yes, my words can be construed in that manner. But it is not what I am referring too. In this situation, with what we've all been through, I am going to be honest in saying that it was eye opening to hear two white women talk about how overt white privilege is, even in our own community. As wrong as it may be, I think you can understand where I am coming from. If I start to complain about how bad it is to be white, that is not going to carry much weight with you. But if some black individuals stepped up to you and said, you know what, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Grant it, that is a ridiculous analogy. But I hope you can see what I am getting at. It carried more weight in the fact that it was from an individual that I have a lot of respect for.

Originally posted by truthseeka
I knew there was a reason some whites in here weren't hearing me, despite my posting source after source to back my statements. Now that you admitted these efforts I made meant spit to you compared to the words of your white colleagues, I'm wondering if my sources were mostly ignored because a black man (me) posted them...

Not ignored. Not ignored in the least. I hope you do believe me. Because even though I was not posting frequently, I was reading. But the problem was, for every link you posted, a white member posted one in opposition. It was left for interpretation. Call it ignorance, pig headed, whatever, I'm speaking the truth as I see it.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Again, I'm not dogging you; actually, I'm thanking you for further validating white privilege.

I take no offense. Frankly, I don't think you've ever offended me in the past. I hope you and I can carry a civil discussion on this with the petty bickering put aside.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Well...I can accept your apology for this. But, I STILL doubt that you will put much value on whatever I say in here, ESPECIALLY with regards to the words of a white person. I won't diss you for that, but that's going to be in my head whenever I'm involved in a discussion with you, regardless of the context the discussion is in.

Now you see, I completely disagree with that. Yes, a white person's thoughts and opinions had a lot of impact on me. But here is the thing, it did not impact me because she was white. It impacted me because I respect her. I respect you, I respect Ceci, I respect BH, I respect semperfortis, and I respect basically every other member here. But I do not know you. Hearing these words from someone I know in real life, well that carries a lot more weight.

See where I am coming from?

Not because shes white. Because I respect her.




[edit on 3/28/2007 by chissler]

HH, I apologize. I just caught this post now as I read through a few previous posts. I'll do my best to respond now. (My space bar is sticking and driving me up the wall)

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
For the sake of anthropological study (and a smidgen of nosiness), I have to ask, how did that conversation go? As a black woman, I don't get many opportunities to hear white people talk among themselves, especially about race. Please share.

It was very interesting. I had made a statement that stemmed from a document we were discussing. It was about how every individual should be judged on their own merit and nothing more. I said I agreed with it, and the two women with me said they disagreed. It floored me. They said how much more black people need to go through to stand on an equal platform with white people, and that should be acknowledged. Caught me off guard to be honest. I understand that some black people came from poverty, but I felt a lot of white people did as well.

Which was what opened the door to so many other "perks" that I had not addressed. Hence, the list.

We chatted for about forty five minutes and it was very interesting. They both said how they denied WP for a very long time. But through diversity training and other various workshops, they began to pick up on things that had existed for a long time. As they spoke, it was as if lights began to turn on for me. Felt a little uneasy about how I've made such a strong stand on this previously, without ever really considering it from this angle. I mentioned this community and how large of an issue it has been as of late.

The best of this chat was that it really caught me off guard. When I say I listened, I truly mean that I listened.

I was given a few specifics in my own community that indicate how strong WP does exist, even in my own community.

I never really understood.

Originally posted by chissler
Not race, but something. As whites are not a visible minority, I would of not contributed this to race. But the so-called "indicators" of socio-economic status would of been in the cross-hairs. Honestly, I see no difference. If I judge you on being black, or judge someone else for being poor, I think both are disgusting and have no place.

I fail to see how minority status is relevant here. What IS relevant, IMO, is the manner in which non-whites are stereotyped/have to speak for their race in a manner that whites are free from. As I said, Chimp Face Bush is NOT called an idiot because of his race. Like you said, it's SOMETHING, but it couldn't POSSIBLY be race for a white.

Racial judgement is the WORST kind in America, due to its spitty history of race relations. Other judgements are bad, true enough, but this one is paramount. In addition, you cannot ignore the fact that poor often=black in America.

I hear you, and I agree. I do not try to hide the fact that my post reinforced white privilege. But understand that I am trying to overcome it, and I am ashamed for my immediate response.

Indeed, I understand that. And, I applaud you for what you're now doing with regards to understanding WP. Hey, I'm only a member of Homo sapiens, so I get peeved when my efforts seem to be in vain. But, as I said before, this was never about me attacking you. I'm glad you understand that, though; some members seem to be unable to comprehend this.

Yes, my words can be construed in that manner. But it is not what I am referring too. In this situation, with what we've all been through, I am going to be honest in saying that it was eye opening to hear two white women talk about how overt white privilege is, even in our own community. As wrong as it may be, I think you can understand where I am coming from. If I start to complain about how bad it is to be white, that is not going to carry much weight with you. But if some black individuals stepped up to you and said, you know what, it's not all it's cracked up to be. Grant it, that is a ridiculous analogy. But I hope you can see what I am getting at. It carried more weight in the fact that it was from an individual that I have a lot of respect for.

...Well...I guess I understand where you're coming from. Real talk, my ego (and a couple of brews ) say "damn that, you can't let him 'scape with dogging your words," but my mind says that you are also just a member of the last surviving species of Homo. So, it's straight.

Not ignored. Not ignored in the least. I hope you do believe me. Because even though I was not posting frequently, I was reading. But the problem was, for every link you posted, a white member posted one in opposition. It was left for interpretation. Call it ignorance, pig headed, whatever, I'm speaking the truth as I see it.

You're right; shooter rebutted quite a few of my sources. But understand, NO ONE said a thing about the stuff on racial profiling or the gap in white-black men's salaries, as it pertained to the articles. I chalked that up to a failure to poo poo WP in these cases. But, I can see where you're on the fence with the other issues.

I take no offense. Frankly, I don't think you've ever offended me in the past. I hope you and I can carry a civil discussion on this with the petty bickering put aside.

Likewise. I won't lie, the abuse I got in the earlier pages of this thread really pissed me off, but I maintained myself and refrained from returning the slinging, insulting missiles. It's refreshing to have someone be more diplomatic at this point in the thread.

Now you see, I completely disagree with that. Yes, a white person's thoughts and opinions had a lot of impact on me. But here is the thing, it did not impact me because she was white. It impacted me because I respect her. I respect you, I respect Ceci, I respect BH, I respect semperfortis, and I respect basically every other member here. But I do not know you. Hearing these words from someone I know in real life, well that carries a lot more weight.

See where I am coming from?

Not because shes white. Because I respect her.

Well, I can feel that. Hell, you don't know me from any other ATS member you haven't met in RL. But at the same time, you have to feel me. I didn't have this comment from you when I made up my mind as to how you valued my words. Real talk, I'm still going to be wary in that respect, but I do hear your explanation. I'm sure you can understand that.

But again, thanks for your current tone. I REALLY wanted to act a ass when I was told "black people never had any civilization" or to "go the # back to Africa," so I appreciate not having to hold back anger while responding cooly.

You're right; shooter rebutted quite a few of my sources. But understand, NO ONE said a thing about the stuff on racial profiling or the gap in white-black men's salaries, as it pertained to the articles. I chalked that up to a failure to poo poo WP in these cases. But, I can see where you're on the fence with the other issues.

The type of racial profiling you listed is wrong and there is no excuse for it. However,and Truth I know how you feel about law enforcement, how are the police supposed to catch a suspect if there is no profiling? For example, a short blonde white male robs a bank shouldn't the police look for short blonde white males? What do you think?

As to the salaries, I read your sources and you know how I feel about statistical studies. I currently work a job which is union protected. We all make the same no matter what race you are.
This is a free country; if you don't like your current employer you can seek another job. If you feel discriminated against you can sue for compensation.
On a related note have you watched "the persuit of happiness" with Will Smith? It is based on a true story and a very good film. It is an excellent example of what is possible in the US.

Before I reply to shooterbrody, I would like to start out with discussing some key white privileges that Dr. McIntosh outlined in her list. I have used the ones that truthseeka had outlined to also help make my point as well.

Originally posted by chissler
I went through a few sheets discussing the notion and I had a list of different day to day things that indicate that White Privilege does exist. I will list them all for the sake of discussion, and others can see what they think.

It is amazing that Truthseeka took the time to outline this at the beginning of the thread and it took another source to have it all hit you now. :shk:

Better late than never, though. Again, that is far more than what others have done so I thank you for this.

6. I can turn on the television or open to the front page of the paper and see people of my race widely represented.

You can look at any paraphenalia in the public sphere and see a white face on it. When you turn on the news, who do you see? Katie Couric, who is white. Stone Phillips who is white. Charles Gibson, who is white. Bill O' Reilly, who is white. When you watch the major sitcoms, reality and drama shows on television, what do you see? The majority of the characters are white, except for a few obligatory characters of color for the producers to show that "they're not racists".

When you switch to the majority of the cable stations, what color do they cater to the most (especially, the A&E channel. Don't lie--especially when they do their documentaries about drugs)? White people. Especially for the History Channel--they cater to the histories of White people (especially when every other program has to do with Hitler).

9. I can be pretty sure of having my voice heard in a group in which I am the only member of my race.

This is probably the case. But even when white people are the only representative of their race in a mixed race group, they have their ways of being heard. And sometimes (if they are not sensitive to the ways of persons of color), they let their obliviousness slip through to the point of it being patronizing. And when another person of color pulls them aside or calls them out on their words, they get indignant. Sort of like some of the threads here.

Or, some whites can't stand being in the subordinate position for long. They do things to make sure their superiority is heard in almost any conversation.

Since I've been a part of a lot of groups in which I have been the only black person, I've been shouted at, ridiculed and warned that I was 'speaking out of turn'. Only if rarely if the other white persons ever "hear" me or understand what I'm trying to convey. Sometimes there are a few that will "speak for me". In fact, if it is myself against other white people in a discussion, sometimes, the white people will turn against me.

11. I can go into a music shop and count on finding music of my race represented, into a supermarket and find the staple foods which fit my cultural traditions, into a hairdresser's shop and find someone who can cut my hair.

How can you not be sure about this? There are a lot of white spas and beauty salons that won't do "black hair", because it is thought to be "too nappy" and "coarse". There has even been law suits about this. A Black person has to go to a barber shop or a beauty shop that will specifically cater to their hair. Unless you're Oprah and have the money to have your hair stylist fly around with you whereever you go.

16. I can talk with my mouth full and not have people put this down on my skin color.

Come on. When Bush made a fool out of himself with his mouth full overseas recently--especially when he was talking with Blair--people even on this board tried to defend his manners.

But if it were myself or any other person of color who have done the same, the people at the dinner (or the restaurant) would think that we were "raised by wolves". In all the formal dinners I have attended, I have always had one obligatory old white lady watch me to see if I knew which fork to use with what entree.

17. I can swear, or dress in second hand clothes, or not answer letters, without having people attribute these choices to the bad morals, the poverty, or the illiteracy of my race.

I've witnessed white people who have dressed worse than a beggar get treated with more respect than I have. And the silence about their "bad behavior" is deafening.

18. I can speak in public to a powerful male group without putting my race on trial.

In RL as well as on the board, I could be discussing something that is benign and have mostly white males retort that "it's another topic about race". Read my thread on "victims" in the U.S. politics forum.

22. I can criticize our government and talk about how much I fear its policies and behaviour without being seen as a cultural outsider.

This is especially the case when discussing politics. On this board alone, I may have a different take on political events only to have it shouted down because "I am being a victim" or "whining about race" or better yet, I am told that I'm a "liberal". But it is rare to find people to ever discuss the issues as they are.

24. If a traffic cop pulls me over or the IRS audits my tax return, I can be sure I haven't been singled out because of my race.

Knowing how cops treat people of color as a result of DWB and SWB, this is almost a certainty that because of "racial profiling" there is going to be a confrontation with a cop. I guess they don't have "racial sensitivity" courses for law enforcement, or that the cops themselves have been asleep while they've been conducted.

25. I can easily buy posters, post-cards, picture books, greeting cards, dolls, toys, and children's magazines featuring people of my race.

Come on. There is such a proliferation of white people on merchandise that this has to be believed.

26. I can go home from most meetings of organizations I belong to feeling somewhat tied in, rather than isolated, out of place, outnumbered, unheard, held at a distance or feared.

For white people, this is almost the case. However, in mixed race groups, for a person of color there is always a sense of isolation because you have to deal with not only the prejudices of the whites in the group; you also have to deal with the obliviousness and the stereotypes that result from it.

Even on the boards, white people make sure that a member of color is isolated through punishment, being ignored, or singled out for "being in trouble".

Trust me on this one. I ought to know.

35. I can be pretty sure of finding people who would be willing to talk with me and advise me about my next steps professionally.

There are always mentors for white people in a professional basis. It's almost a given for a white male to have an older white male take him under his wing and make sure that he is given the proper advice. And while the white male gets promoted, the people of color stay in the same position and do twice the work.

37. I can be late to a meeting without having the lateness reflect on my race.

It always happens. Some white people are late and nothing happens to them. You're late and they think you're doing a horrible job. Not only that, the bosses think that you aren't taking the job seriously.

Some whites even get promoted after missteps like this because of nepotism or that they are a "friend of a friend". Or that they "screwed" the boss.

39. I can be sure that if I need legal or medical help, my race will not work against me.

Why do you think that there are discussions and studies about the disparities in health care? In fact, Black people always have to worry whether their doctors are treating them with the same attention as white patients solely because of fears that even in the medicine there are racists who won't pay attention to one's ills.

40. If I have low credibility as a leader, I can rest assure that my race is not the problem.

This has to do with the "myth of meritocracy". Watch how they are treating Atty Gen. Gonzales right now. Bush and Co. are walking on eggshells because they don't want to cut him loose a little too quickly. But even Mr. Gonzales has to know that the fall from the ladder is quick and hard on the way down--especially for a person with brown skin in this country. You piss off the Man, and he doesn't hire you again. At least not like Michael Brown.


[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by shooterbrody
The type of racial profiling you listed is wrong and there is no excuse for it. However,and Truth I know how you feel about law enforcement, how are the police supposed to catch a suspect if there is no profiling? For example, a short blonde white male robs a bank shouldn't the police look for short blonde white males? What do you think?

Shooter...come on, I know you're above stuff like this. Of COURSE, if someone gives a description of a suspect, the cops would be insane to look for someone who didn't fit the description. HOWEVER, you know full well this is FAR different from pulling over innocent people because they're not white.

Trust me; I've had pigs harass me because I was a "burglary suspect," even though the ONLY thing the actual suspect had in common with me was black skin. And no, I will not go into detail with this personal experience; I know better than to do that again.

As to the salaries, I read your sources and you know how I feel about statistical studies. I currently work a job which is union protected. We all make the same no matter what race you are.
This is a free country; if you don't like your current employer you can seek another job. If you feel discriminated against you can sue for compensation.
On a related note have you watched "the persuit of happiness" with Will Smith? It is based on a true story and a very good film. It is an excellent example of what is possible in the US.

Here's the thing, shooter; when you have as large a sample size as that of the study I cited, you can pretty much take it as indicative of reality. This is based on the principles of statistics. And, like the article said, not ALL jobs show this disparity, but many jobs indeed show this trend.

So, the solution to salary discrimination is to go to another job? What about the next black person who takes that position? Same thing will happen to them. This is quite similar to "if you don't like racism in America, just LEAVE" rhetoric.

And no, I haven't seen that film. But, I DO want to. I've seen clips of it, and it looks pretty damn good. But at the same time, you can't use this film to say that every race has an equal shot in this country. It's kinda like using the "model minority," Asians, to justify maintaining the status quo as far as the racial hierarchy goes.

Originally posted by shooterbrody

Having an opinion is "white privilege"?

Yes, when white people use it as a judgement about race and character without taking the entire situation into context.

Because that is all it really is an opinion. Just because someone calls another a victim doesn't make it so. Just because someone says another is using race as a crutch doesn't make it so.

Yes, you're correct. But it isn't people of color using this type of language. This is something that white people say whenever they don't want to deal with specific aspects of race.

Anyone,regardless of intelligence, is entitled to their opinion. Would you rather people did not have opinions?

That's fine and well, but that's not the issue here. The issue here is patronising judgements used on people of color. And I believe that Chissler would not use such words as "talking as adults" if it had to do with a group that solely consisted of white people. The perception (whenever I hear this said in a mixed race group and a white person says this) is that the people of color cannot maturely have a discussion of this caliber. Usually, it is the other way around.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. Do you think people of color are less entitled to an opinion? I don't.

I'm glad you don't. But again, this isn't the issue. It is the discussion concerning whether white people are aware of what they say to people of color in discussions like these. And whether white people really think about what they say to persons of color and have the ability to ignore certain aspects of the conversation, let alone write them off because of 'deflection'.

It is not "white privilege" it is freedom of speech.

That's what you think.

Would you prefer less freedom?

This has nothing to do with that.

Again I don't know your history with chissler but I read your post, and it was not pleasant. Would you be surprised if he left and no longer took part in this?

Of course, it is not pleasant. But you seem to ignore the fact that some white posters in this thread were not pleasant to truthseeka, HH or myself at the beginning. In fact, they thought Truthseeka was me! They couldn't even distinguish between us!!!!

I think after seeing post after post of fraudulent and derogatory history about blacks as well as insults about "victimisation", "using race as a crutch" and "going back to Africa", you could see why I am very skeptical to say the least.

Not one member of color has ever told a white poster to go back to Europe here. But, this is a common retort by some white posters to say when they don't want to discuss issues afforded about race. Why is that? Why do they feel the need to say that we should go back to Africa when America is our country?

We're Americans too. And we should not have to be subjected to this type of talk. But, like truthseeka, I've handled all of this (not only on this thread, but others I have started) with a lot of restraint because if I don't--it is assumed that I'm "whining" or "blaming" other people here. There is never a sense of fairness when it comes to discussions. White posters, no matter how badly they write or spell, are afforded with intelligence and believability. White posters can attack myself, HH and Truthseeka with a lot venom. That also goes without question.

Now maybe you can understand why sometiimes there might be anger at the things other posters have done while being forced to carry on discussions like these with a lot of restraint. I give Truthseeka props for doing so. He has had a lot of restraint on this thread for the amount of abuse he has had to take from some of the white posters here on the thread.




[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
It is amazing that Truthseeka took the time to outline this at the beginning of the thread and it took another source to have it all hit you now. :shk:

Better late than never, though.

Again, that is far more than what others have done so I thank you for this.

Tru dat, tru dat, Ceci. But, like you said, better late than never.

Especially for the History Channel--they cater to the histories of White people (especially when every other program has to do with Hitler).

Yeah, I noticed how the History Channel only likes to talk about black people in the context of slavery. You will NOT see the true ancient Kamites (better known as ancient Egyptians) on this supposed "history" channel, or the empires of Nubia or Mali, for that matter.

Since I've been a part of a lot of groups in which I have been the only black person, I've been shouted at, ridiculed and warned that I was 'speaking out of turn'. Only if rarely if the other white persons ever "hear" me or what I'm trying to convey. In fact, if it is me against other white people, sometimes, the white people will turn against me.

Try being the only black person in your class and making better grades than most of your white classmates. I feel you, girl...:shk:

How can you not be sure about this? There are a lot of white spas and beauty salons that won't do "black hair", because it is thought to be "too nappy" and "coarse". There have even been law suits about this. A Black person has to go to a barber shop or a beauty shop that will specifically cater to their hair. Unless you're Oprah and have the money to have your hair stylist fly around with you whereever you go.

about Oprah. Yeah, back when I rocked a 'fro, I called up white salons and asked them if they would braid my hair. ALL of them said no, they couldn't do "that" type of hairstyle. I knew what they would say, of course; I just wanted to hear them say it. I'm feeling you here too.

It's aight now; I just go to the hood to get my Caesar, cuz I'm starting to spin real crazy now...

Come on. When Bush made a fool out of himself with his mouth full overseas recently--especially when he was talking with Blair--people even on this board tried to defend his manners.

But if it were myself or any other person of color who have done the same, the people at the dinner (or the restaurant) would think that we were "raised by wolves". In all the formal dinners I have attended, I have always had one obligatory old white lady watch me to see if I knew which fork to use with what entree.

Didn't hear about Chimp Face doing this. But, it's like I already said; ANY screw up from him CANNOT be attributed to his race.

I've witnessed white people who have dressed worse than a beggar get treated with more respect that I have. And the silence about their "bad behavior" is deafening.

Hey, ol dude from "True Colors" was still a ni.gger in his button up shirt and tie. You know how it is, though...

In RL as well as on the board, I could be discussing something that is benign and have mostly white males retort that "it's another topic about race". Read my thread on "victims" in the U.S. politics forum.

Can't say you don't have a point there...

This is especially the case when discussing politics. On this board alone, I may have a different take on political events only to have it shouted down because "I am being a victim" or "whining about race" or better yet, bet told that I'm a "liberal". But it is rare to find people to ever discuss the issues as they are.

I can see where you're coming from, but I still think the America hating, you're with Al-CIAda rhetoric trumps this.

Knowing how cops treat people of color as a result of DWB and SWB, this is almost a certainty that because of "racial profiling" there is going to be a confrontation with a cop. I guess they don't have "racial sensitivity" courses for law enforcement, or that the cops themselves have been asleep while they've been conducted.

That was funny about the cops sleeping through the courses.

Come on. There is such a proliferation of white people on merchandise that this has to be believed.

YEZZUR!

Even on the boards, white people make sure that a member of color is isolated through punishment, being ignored, or singled out for "being in trouble".

Trust me on this one. I ought to know.

Mum's the word on this one. That says it all.

There are always mentors for white people in a professional basis. It's almost a given for a white male to have an older white male take him under his wing and make sure that he is given the proper advice. And while the white male gets promoted, the people of color stay in the same position and do twice the work.

Glass ceilings and glass walls come to mind here...

It always happens. Some white people are late and nothing happens to them. You're late and they think you're doing a horrible job. Not only that, the bosses think that you aren't taking the job seriously.

Some whites even get promoted after missteps like this because of nepotism or that they are a "friend of a friend".

Heh. I have a white friend who skipped work for THREE MONTHS and got promoted! We thought that was pretty funny; I guess it'd be funnier if I could do that...

Why do you think that there are discussions and studies about the disparities in health care? In fact, Black people always have to worry whether their doctors are treating them with the same attention as white patients solely because of fears that even in the medicine there are racists who won't pay attention to one's ills.

Yup. Tuskegee; it's why a lot of old school don't trust doctors.

This has to do with the "myth of meritocracy". Watch how they are treating Atty Gen. Gonzales right now. Bush and Co. are walking on eggshells because they don't want to cut him loose a little too quickly. But even Mr. Gonzales has to know that the fall from the ladder is quick and hard on the way down--especially for a person with brown skin in this country. You piss off the Man, and he doesn't hire you again. At least not like Michael Brown.

Sorry, Ceci, but you won't find me sympathizing with Alberto "I love torture, viva la raza" Gonzales. That piece of spit deserves worse. But, you do have a point with the principle of it all.



[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Yay! If found this thread again.

Truthseeker, i checked the first 10 pages of this enormous thread, for an answer from you, to my question. I didn't find it. So if you answered, and I missed it, please retell, or point me to me the page where you did. I'm not reading all 36 pages.

How much of your 'white' salary did you negotiate down, with your employer?
If you didn't, how much of your salary do you give away to your black neighbors? Please answer, as it will tell a great deal about your dedication to 'fighting the man'.

I have a few other questions, for any to answer.

When does a white person get let off the hook for benefiting from white priveledge? Where is the line? What must a white person do? How much of it?

And what is so wrong with a black person becoming succesful? From all the examples I've seen stated, there are no black heroes. Except the sports heroes. It seems that if a black person gets a higher education, and integrates themselves into the 'white culture'. they are spat on. I don't get it.

I really think, that alot of the black posters on this thread, will not be satisfied, until the roles are reversed. Not an equal footing, but a reversal of dominance. Am I right? Search yourselves deeply, is this really the case? Is it an eye for eye thing? The last 400 years cannot be nullified until blacks can enslave whites, and oppress whites for 400 years? That's what I'm taking away from this thread, and it disturbs me.

Is the hatred and resentment so saturated into the black community, that hope for harmony between peoples of our races is forgone? Is the ignorance and lack of white folk to dispell the advantages of white priviledge, so ingrained into the white community, that the same hope for harmony is forgone? ( that's for you to answer whitey )

And what in god's name IS black culture? I cannot for the life of me, figure it out. All I can come up with, from this thread, and a few others, is that 'ghetto' living is what constitutes 'black culture'; in America that is. Please someone, give me a succint answer to this question.

The movie "Forrest Gump" comes to mind. That, in my point of view, has to be the ultimate tale of white privilege for a white male. But that doesn't stop him from stealing the idea of a dead comrade in war to make a multi-million dollar shrimp business. It also doesn't stop him from gaining notoriety off of the backs of his other friends.

And it seems the people of color and the women of the film get punished through death.

Yet, Forrest ends up with a son, a mansion and money to boot (not to mention AIDS free).

There's a lesson to be learnt there.


[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by nextguyinline

When does a white person get let off the hook for benefiting from white priveledge? Where is the line?

They don't.

What must a white person do?

Fight for a system of justice benefitting all based on true equality and fairness. And it is not one of faux equality and fairness that some like to preach about. We are not in an equal society now. Continue talks like these and do not shy away from them. Do not deflect the issue with trivialities, deflections or dismissals.

How much of it?

White people must not "ignore" the stories that people of color tell. As persons of the dominant culture, they must not "dismiss" the sources and tales that people of color convey. They must speak out against other white people who do not practice justice in society. They must also be aware that things like white privilege happen in society and speak against it. They must also work to change the system politically, economically and socially so that the past is not repeated again.

And what is so wrong with a black person becoming succesful? From all the examples I've seen stated, there are no black heroes. Except the sports heroes. It seems that if a black person gets a higher education, and integrates themselves into the 'white culture'. they are spat on. I don't get it.

White privilege has nothing to do with this. Bringing this up only conveys deflection.

I really think, that alot of the black posters on this thread, will not be satisfied, until the roles are reversed. Not an equal footing, but a reversal of dominance. Am I right? Search yourselves deeply, is this really the case? Is it an eye for eye thing? The last 400 years cannot be nullified until blacks can enslave whites, and oppress whites for 400 years? That's what I'm taking away from this thread, and it disturbs me.

You're wrong. That's not what this thread conveys. And this is another attempt of deflection in my book.

Is the hatred and resentment so saturated into the black community, that hope for harmony between peoples of our races is forgone? Is the ignorance and lack of white folk to dispell the advantages of white priviledge, so ingrained into the white community, that the same hope for harmony is forgone? ( that's for you to answer whitey )

Where is this resentment and hatred? We're talking and posting sources about our experiences. So, if we have the same experiences as white people the resentment and hatred isn't around any more?

I don't hate white people. I don't resent white people. I believe in discussing my experiences and posting sources so that others are aware that this is happening in society.

And what in god's name IS black culture? I cannot for the life of me, figure it out. All I can come up with, from this thread, and a few others, is that 'ghetto' living is what constitutes 'black culture'; in America that is. Please someone, give me a succint answer to this question.

If you think that the "ghetto" is all that attributes to black culture, you're a long way off.

Seriously.

I think you haven't heard about the Harlem Renaissance, Crispus Attucks, Benjamin Banneker, John Hope Franklin, Francois Dominique Toussaint L'Overture, Phyllis Wheatley and Charles Drew. They are a part of many other people and events that have contributed to American culture. They have also made Black culture fruitful and rather important.





[edit on 29-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Well, certainly you resent white people for taking advantage of white priviledge.

You say I can't be 'redeemed' in your eyes, but then tell me what I can do? Please....

Deflection? I'm asking personal questions, which have related to topics brought up in this thread. Which, only the first question you actually answered, strangely and frankly, quite unstably to say the least. The deflection is your inability or intentional refusal to answer my questions, and poor attempt to warp my questions to fit your own perception of things.

If you think, that I think black culture is 'ghetto living', then answer my question of what black culture is. But you can't or won't. I presume it to be, because there is no black culture in this country. There is only American culture. You are perpetuating the division.

I think you need to take a hard look at your writings on this thread, but again, to be presumptious, I don't think you can objectively, because of the hatred and resentment that you carry with you.

You have subtly answered many of my questions, unbeknownst to you apparently. I think the main difference between you and I, ( i initially wrote 'me and you' but I'm afraid that would just reinforce some of your perceptions, so I put 'you' first ) is that I will log out, still confused on the whole matter, and you will log out with a reinforced belief that all I, or other white posters can offer, is deflection and whatever other nonsense you may believe.

Maybe if I say things like 'true dat, true dat' I may get a more repectable response.