Real Talk about White Privilege

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Not being able to EASILY trace your lineage is also not suffering or giving up yout heritage. I cannot easily trace mine, either.

Come on now, it is more difficult for people of colour in the US to trace their roots and you know this. I know quite a bit about my heritage but it ends at the plantation, any further knowledge requires DNA testing.

You can learn any African language you want. White people did not control the language in Africa.

What should black people do, just pick a language to learn?
Hmm, I kind of like swahili, or basaa...then again it would be nice to learn one with cool clicking sounds...like zulu perhaps.

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
Come on now, it is more difficult for people of colour in the US to trace their roots and you know this.

I don't deny it's more difficult. I don't deny that it's nearly impossible. It's not an easy thing for anyone to do. But work and perseverance will get it done. No matter who you are, it's more difficult to do something than it is for someone else to do that same thing.

But white privilege is getting mixed in the slavery here. The reason it's harder for black Americans to trace their lineage is because of slavery, not because of white privilege. Or is it all the same?

What should black people do, just pick a language to learn?

I don't understand. What language do you want to learn? I'm missing something here.

Hmm, I kind of like swahili, or basaa...then again it would be nice to learn one with cool clicking sounds...like zulu perhaps.

You're making fun of me, but I don't understand why.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

All right, phoenix, that's it.

First you're a "thought terrorist," but now you have a kid holding a gun to another kid's head? Be prepared for a visit from Homeland Securi-TAY.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't understand. What language do you want to learn? I'm missing something here.

I would like to learn an African language that I have physical ties to, unfortunately I need DNA testing for that. Most white people in the US don't need to do that, and in a sense it is one privelege of being white in the US.

You're making fun of me, but I don't understand why.

Not trying to make fun, I was just trying to say that there are many languages of Africa and right now I have no clue which one my ancestors spoke when they arrived here, but I do really like the click consonant though.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by phoenixhasrisin]

Originally posted by phoenixhasrisin
I would like to learn an African language that I have physical ties to, unfortunately I need DNA testing for that.

Thank you for answering me.

Is there something preventing you from getting DNA testing? I mean, if you really want to do that... if it's really important to you (or anyone) would the need for DNA testing stop you?

How much genealogy research have you done? Have you looked into these sites?

African American Genealogy
ArfiGeneas
African American Research
Intro to Af/Am Genealogy
African American Genealogy Resources

Actually, I see some of these sites will help you for free. That's more than I can get... because I'm white. I have the privilege of paying for everything.

Because finding black American genealogy is tough, there are many organizations devoted to helping you. The information is there.

Remember, I don't deny white privilege, I just don't know if it's as one-sided as some would have us believe. And anyone born in the US would have to trace their geneology to find out who their ancestors were to find out what language they spoke.

As I said, the roadblocks you encounter are because of slavery, not white privilege. And I personally think, in situations like this, it's too easy to stop when one is faced with a roadblock and say, "It's too hard and it's because of white privilege" instead of saying, "It's hard and I really want it, so I'm going to keep trying."

Because we all have these roadblocks in life. And having something to blame (such as white privilege) is sometimes just used as a reason to stop trying.

I do really like the click consonant though.

I like that, too. And I understand that you would like to learn the language of your ancestors, but Swahili is a beautiful and fascinating-sounding language. I've heard it a lot and I love it.

Something I found that I did not know.

The African Wolofs were brought to the North American colonies as enslaved people between 1670 and 1700. Working principally as house slaves, they may have been the first Africans whose cultural elements and language were assimilated into the developing culture of America. Additionally, a large number of Wolof words took root in American English because Wolof people were frequently used as interpreters by European slavers along the coast of West Africa in the early years of the slave trade. These African interpreters used Wolof names for African foodstuffs fed to enslaved Africans on the middle passage, such as yams and bananas--words that then became parts of Standard English in North America.

Slavery in America

So, the African culture and language contributed to American culture. The American culture and the English language we use in the US today was partially formed by the slaves who were brought here. So, this culture that so many don't want to have to assimilate into was actually contributed to by your ancestors.

So what is the solution ?

Originally posted by R3KR
So what is the solution ?

Thats what I have been trying to get to as well but it seems easier for people to discuss the problem.

I think the solution is to do as grover suggests. We need to teach our children better than we were taught. We need to find common ground. We need to listen to each other without judgment and all the "us" vs "them" language. We need to love each other and realize we're all the same and stand up for each other.

grover, in my opinion, you've said it all. I just don't think most people are interested in solution so much as blame.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I think the solution is to do as grover suggests. We need to teach our children better than we were taught. We need to find common ground. We need to listen to each other without judgment and all the "us" vs "them" language. We need to love each other and realize we're all the same and stand up for each other.

grover, in my opinion, you've said it all. I just don't think most people are interested in solution so much as blame.

Thank you. I mentioned before I cook lunch every Sunday for our local Baha'i' children's classes. We have currently about 20 kids from 4 or 5 to 15, with most in the 5 to 8 range. We have a girl from Honduras and another from Mongolia. We have mixed race (black/white) kids as we have black and white kids, some girls from Togo and there are several from Iraq and Iran and it is wonderful seeing them interact. Since this is a Baha'i' class we stress the elimination of prejudice... we teach the kids to look at each other as members of the one human family and that skin color simply does not matter unless you want it to, and they understand this and it is a blessing just to be around them. It really is, regardless of religion, the only way forward.

I have some ideas that may help to eradicate white privilege...

Keep AA programs in place

Punish police departments that teach their officers racial profiling and/or support racial profiling

Punish department stores that practice racial profiling

Increase salaries of non-whites to equal that of whites working the same jobs

Punish real estate companies/agents that practice housing discrimination

Remove or diminish the contribution of parts of the point system in college admissions that support white privilege

Punish corporations that maintain glass ceilings and/or walls that prevent and/or limit non-white mobility in the companies

Abolish the death penalty/3 strikes rule, as they are discretionary and used disparately against non-whites

These are a few examples that I can think of off the dome.

Of course, addressing personal racism is impossible, so everyone will have to live with that, unfortunately. But, institutional racism CAN be eliminated. These would be some steps in the right direction for that.

Didn't you notice all your list (except keeping AA and increasing wages) was punitive? You cannot punish people into doing the right thing. If we implemented your list as it stands all it would do would be to cause resentment and that is no solution. You are still thinking about combating white privilege... rather you should be thinking about how to work towards the betterment of ALL humanity (not just blacks) including whites. The only way forward is seeing beyond race, not focusing on it.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
Didn't you notice all your list (except keeping AA and increasing wages) was punitive? You cannot punish people into doing the right thing. If we implemented your list as it stands all it would do would be to cause resentment and that is no solution. You are still thinking about combating white privilege... rather you should be thinking about how to work towards the betterment of ALL humanity (not just blacks) including whites. The only way forward is seeing beyond race, not focusing on it.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by grover]

Isn't that what laws do, though?

Besides, isn't punishment in order when laws are violated? For example, one of my sources mentioned that EEO employers still discriminated.

And, I didn't focus on black people. I said non-white people in general. Once the playing field truly is equal for all, then EVERYONE can work for the betterment of all. But, as it is, it's not equal, so you shouldn't be surprised that people want to equalize things first.

Once these discrepancies are gone from American society, THEN it would be foolish to focus on race. But, as long as race remains a significant role player, people will be unable to see past it.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Isn't that what laws do, though?

No. Laws don't punish people.

Besides, isn't punishment in order when laws are violated? For example, one of my sources mentioned that EEO employers still discriminated.

If the law already exists, then there is recourse.

And, I didn't focus on black people. I said non-white people in general.

Still "us" vs. "them" thinking.

Once the playing field truly is equal for all, then EVERYONE can work for the betterment of all.

We don't have to wait till the playing field is truly equal. We can all work together now.

But, as it is, it's not equal, so you shouldn't be surprised that people want to equalize things first.

Not surprised, just disappointed.

Once these discrepancies are gone from American society, THEN it would be foolish to focus on race.

Every discrepancy will never be gone.

But, as long as race remains a significant role player, people will be unable to see past it.

And as long as people focus on race, it will remain a significant role-player, to some.

Originally posted by truthseeka

Isn't that what laws do, though?

Besides, isn't punishment in order when laws are violated?

Once the playing field truly is equal for all, then EVERYONE can work for the betterment of all. But, as it is, it's not equal, so you shouldn't be surprised that people want to equalize things first.

Once these discrepancies are gone from American society, THEN it would be foolish to focus on race. But, as long as race remains a significant role player, people will be unable to see past it.

I am sorry but from my vantage point you are seeing things bass akward.

In the long run we are talking about attitudes and the way people view each other and that is a matter of education both socially and spiritually, it is not a matter of laws, rewards or punishments. You cannot legislate how people view the world.

You cannot make things equal THEN work for the betterment of all. We have to start where we are and work out from there... it is a matter for which the liner approach just does not work.

As long as you focus on race (or gender, or sexuality or religion etc) you are simply prolonging the matter. I am not saying deny the problem, I am saying move beyond it and become, in yourself, an example of how to be for your children and others. If you fail in that you become nothing more than part of the problem.

Perhaps you should read my signature and meditate on what it is saying.

[edit on 18-3-2007 by grover]

Originally posted by grover
I am sorry but from my vantage point you are seeing things bass akward.

In the long run we are talking about attitudes and the way people view each other and that is a matter of education both socially and spiritually, it is not a matter of laws, rewards or punishments. You cannot legislate how people view the world.

I already said you can't do this. And, I think your goal of getting EVERYONE to think a certain way about others (though admirable) is FAR loftier than changing systems in society. You are NOT going to get everyone to see us all as the same, i.e. human beings, IMO.

You cannot make things equal THEN work for the betterment of all. We have to start where we are and work out from there... it is a matter for which the liner approach just does not work.

THIS is what will actually create resentment. Say we all start working toward the betterment of all first. With nothing changing in the system, whites will still be in a better position than everyone else; everyone will do better, yes, but there will still be the discrepancy. And, when people notice this, they will have feelings of resentment.

As long as you focus on race (or gender, or sexuality or religion etc) you are simply prolonging the matter. I am not saying deny the problem, I am saying move beyond it and become, in yourself, an example of how to be for your children and others. If you fail in that you become nothing more than part of the problem.

That's all good, grover. But, do tell how teaching our children the right way to see others will address white privilege. Do tell how that's going to change this aspect of society. Sure, our kids will see others as human beings, but they will still be rewarded less for the same (or more) efforts than others. It will only be a matter of time before they figure out why...

We cannot correct the past... we can only cultivate a new future.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

How much genealogy research have you done? Have you looked into these sites?

Thankfully people in my family have already gone through that work, like I said-- I know quite a bit about my heritage but it ends at the plantation.

Actually, I see some of these sites will help you for free. That's more than I can get... because I'm white. I have the privilege of paying for everything.

Yeah, I keep hearing about how hard it is to be white.

And anyone born in the US would have to trace their geneology to find out who their ancestors were to find out what language they spoke.

Sorry, that's BS. Do you know how easy it was to find out what language my white ancestors spoke?
Q: "Hey Grandma, where did our family come from?"
A:"Oh, my Grandparents came from Germany, their last name was Frikks".

That's how easy it was, and it is a privilege, one that most white people take for granted.

As far as solutions, I don't think there are any solutions per se...we just have to wait, and let nature take it's course really.



[edit on 18-3-2007 by phoenixhasrisin]

That's not what I'm saying.

Look, let's look at it this way. Your solution apparently is to teach the younger generation that we are all the same. I agree that this is a necessary part of the solution, but it is not the solution alone. This is what I mean.

How will this address disparities in pay for different races working the same job?

How will this address racial profiling in law enforcement?

How will this address housing discrimination?

I didn't say the solutions I offered were perfect. However, they do address these aspects of society better than teaching everyone we are all equal.

Take Lincoln for example. Say he tried to get everyone to see blacks and whites as equal human beings. Slavery would NOT have been abolished when it was if he had gone this route. Why? Because it would have been NIGH impossible to get everyone to look at things this way. However, the more direct approach ended up working. And Lincoln did not believe in this equality to boot.

That's my point. We don't necessarily need to have everyone thinking this way to change things. If things change, people will come around. Not everyone, of course, but many people will.

Originally posted by truthseeka
How will this address disparities in pay for different races working the same job?

When that child grows up, they will know that all people are equal and will offer the same pay to anyone who takes the job. Be it black or white, man or woman.

How will this address racial profiling in law enforcement?

More and more enlightened people are growing up. They'll look back at thow their parents did things and laugh.

I didn't say the solutions I offered were perfect. However, they do address these aspects of society better than teaching everyone we are all equal.

Nothing would work better than teaching everyone we are all equal.

We don't necessarily need to have everyone thinking this way to change things.

Well, that's good to hear. But the more people grow up in this world, viewing their fellow man with equality and love, the better the future will be.

Are you teaching your children that everyone is equal or are you teaching them that whites have privileges and that they have to watch out for cops, etc? Are you doing your part to make a less racist tomorrow?

BH took the words out of my mouth....

BUT I am not saying that we teach our children that we are all the same because that is an absurdity when it is obvious that we aren't, race, gender, sexual preference, wealth, talents and mental capabilities are obviously different.

No what I am saying is that we do not teach our children our prejudices... we teach them to look upon us as members of all one human family and hopefully they grow up a little more enlightened than we are and pass that understanding on to their children.

Compassion, tolerance and understanding are the greatest treasures we can pass onto our children. And if that seems idealistic so be it. I would rather be idealistic than to be dragged down by the dead weight of history.