Real Talk about White Privilege

If assimilating didn't matter (just like skin color and white privilege "doesn't matter"), no one would need to change their lives or their names in order to get along in the larger culture.

Are you talking about immigrants? What kind of assimilating do you mean?
The timeframe in the source was the '30s correct? The landscape in the '30s was alot different than now.

Why keep posting comments on how things were?a+b=c IMHO will not work in this discussion. Laws have been passed to outlaw segrigation, and discrimination haven't they?Are there still problems, sure there are, as long as people are free to form their own opinions there will be bigots and racists.

[edit on 16/3/2007 by shooterbrody]

Originally posted by shooterbrody

If assimilating didn't matter (just like skin color and white privilege "doesn't matter"), no one would need to change their lives or their names in order to get along in the larger culture.

Are you talking about immigrants? What kind of assimilating do you mean?

Of course, the laws have been written to outlaw segregation. But it didn't take into account the affects of assimilation versus those who want to preserve their heritage and family roots.

It encompasses both immigrants and people of color. But, I mainly wanted to say that especially for people of color, we have to give up quite a lot in order to survive within the dominant culture. For example, a lot of slaves took the last names of their Plantation Masters. And the Plantation Masters (after they bought them from slave auction) "re-named" them with "Christian" names.

As I mentioned before, there are certain groups that are allowed the ability to become WASP's in society. The lighter skinned ones are especially given this privilege (as a result of colorism) because they can "pass".

However, for people who have a "discernable skin color", they have to adapt to the ways of the larger culture in order to "fit in". In assimilating, they place their old culture: in a derogatory light; learn the language of the dominant culture ("Speak English, please!" is something that you hear a lot for those trying to get a part of the "American dream"); learn the habits of the dominant culture; and deride others of color who choose to retain their old culture in the face of integrating within the larger culture.

(this is especially outlined in the first source in my post on page 29)

Assimilationists get treated better because they choose to mimic the messages and habits of the dominant culture. However, this is done in detriment to their own original culture. And as a result, some don't care. It's sad, but it's a factor of life. Like some of the dominant culture, assimilationists choose not to feel a connection to others of their cultural, ethnic or racial group who choose to preserve their heritage.

I don't think that some white people ever think about this because of the assumption that American culture is the "only" culture that exists in the United States. Politicians alone have spoken about the "national character" and the "national culture". What do you think this "national culture" consists of?

[edit on 17-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Originally posted by ceci2006
Assimilationists get treated better because they choose to mimic the messages and habits of the dominant culture. However, this is done in detriment to their own original culture. And as a result, some don't care. It's sad, but it's a factor of life. Like some of the dominant culture, assimilationists choose not to feel a connection to others of their cultural, ethnic or racial group who choose to preserve their heritage.

Your culture is what you choose it to be. Right now I am choosing Japanese culture. You are choosing the "victim mentality" culture.

("Speak English, please!" is something that you hear a lot for those trying to get a part of the "American dream")

That is why it is the American dream and not _____ dream(whatever country they came from). Would you expect to move to russia and not learn to speak russian? Just because imigrants learn how to function in America does not mean they have to put their heritage or culture aside. Practicing their culture is protected by law in America. English is the language of America how could you want to live here and not want to learn english?

Whatever you say, James.

But perhaps I do, because I choose to empathize with those who suffer and will work toward helping suffering people in need.

Because I care, have empathy and a conscience, I am part of the "victim culture".

Those who don't identify with others without any sort of empathy or conscience (especially if they suffer) are psychopaths. Choose to be one, if you like.



[edit on 17-3-2007 by ceci2006]

I think the national culture is based on things we have in common. Bill of rights, 4th of July, the ability to communicate(ie speak english);and I think the national culture is based on differences. Holidays to celebrate(christmas or chanuka or kwanza or cinco de mayo,st patricks day),music,clothing,food...ect. I think the things we have in common allow us to be different. Tolerance for those differences has increased in the past few decades. It has gotten better and will get better with future generations.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
I think the national culture is based on things we have in common. Bill of rights, 4th of July, the ability to communicate(ie speak english);and I think the national culture is based on differences. Holidays to celebrate(christmas or chanuka or kwanza or cinco de mayo,st patricks day),music,clothing,food...ect. I think the things we have in common allow us to be different. Tolerance for those differences has increased in the past few decades. It has gotten better and will get better with future generations.

You're correct. At the outset, Americans do identify with things that construct the dominant culture. But, one has to stop and think about who set up the culture? Who forced others to adapt to that culture? How are people who identify (with the culture that has been created by those in the majority) rewarded--especially if they have a different skin color than those who readily identify with American culture?

Originally posted by shooterbrody

That is why it is the American dream and not _____ dream(whatever country they came from). Would you expect to move to russia and not learn to speak russian? Just because imigrants learn how to function in America does not mean they have to put their heritage or culture aside. Practicing their culture is protected by law in America. English is the language of America how could you want to live here and not want to learn english?

You should. But you shouldn't have to give up your heritage or be taught that it is wrong in order to be part of the larger construct of America. And you shouldn't have to witness the dominant culture get rights and privileges due to their skin color because of it.

But you shouldn't have to give up your heritage or be taught that it is wrong in order to be part of the larger construct of America.

I understand that happened alot in times past. I understand it is wrong. Have you had to give up your heritage or culture to be part of america? (I am assuming you were born in the U.S.) If so how?

Man...

WTF is with this "victim mentality" culture? It's taurus feces.

So, people who point out the racial hierarchy in American society are victims? Please. I'm tired of seeing this trash.

Originally posted by shooterbrody

I understand that happened alot in times past. I understand it is wrong. Have you had to give up your heritage or culture to be part of america? (I am assuming you were born in the U.S.) If so how?

I will speak about this later, but I wanted to repost something from my last set of sources which explain this succinctly:

But Harris’s grandmother paid a high price for the “privilege” of being thought of as white: she lost the sense of a core self (that is, one’s sense of personal history, coherence, and integrity) as a result of having to listen without protest to her white co-workers’ and customers’ remarks against black Americans. Harris says that by remaining silent in the face of these remarks, her grandmother risked “self-annihilation” to ensure her economic survival. In short, the price of whiteness for Harris’s grandmother was “complicit[y] in her own oppression.”

-------------------------------------------------------------

Truthseeka, I will answer your post a little bit later as well.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Man...

WTF is with this "victim mentality" culture? It's taurus feces.

So, people who point out the racial hierarchy in American society are victims? Please. I'm tired of seeing this trash.

I still do not see a racial hierarchy. I see a small group of people one of whom has been banned before, trying to post threads to stir the flames of hate. That is what these threads are doing.

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn

Originally posted by truthseeka
Man...

WTF is with this "victim mentality" culture? It's taurus feces.

So, people who point out the racial hierarchy in American society are victims? Please. I'm tired of seeing this trash.

I still do not see a racial hierarchy. I see a small group of people one of whom has been banned before, trying to post threads to stir the flames of hate. That is what these threads are doing.

What are the flames of hate, if I may ask? After all, you know and we don't.

I understand that to an extent.
I have children of mixed ethnicity. It is not easy to hold your tongue when bigots make racist remarks. What I have learned is that those remarks equate to the intelligence level of those making them. It sucks to find out your "friends" are bigots. While that incident happened years ago, and the hate was at a much higher level, She still only lost the sense of core self if she chose to. Racists and bigots don't get to chose how you feel. Only you chose how you feel. The only person that can make you angry, happy , sad...ect is yourself.

Originally posted by JamesMcMahn
I still do not see a racial hierarchy. I see a small group of people one of whom has been banned before, trying to post threads to stir the flames of hate. That is what these threads are doing.

Who cares what you don't see? Eyes wide shut, like I said.

When was the last time you saw one of your cells (with your unaided eyes)? How about nitrogen molecules? E. coli on raw beef?

Just because YOU don't see something doesn't mean it's not there.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
I understand that to an extent.
I have children of mixed ethnicity. It is not easy to hold your tongue when bigots make racist remarks. What I have learned is that those remarks equate to the intelligence level of those making them. It sucks to find out your "friends" are bigots. While that incident happened years ago, and the hate was at a much higher level, She still only lost the sense of core self if she chose to. Racists and bigots don't get to chose how you feel. Only you chose how you feel. The only person that can make you angry, happy , sad...ect is yourself.

Being a bigot is probably one of the most blatant ways in which hate is out there.

But, there are subtle ways that racial disparity is depicted. White privilege is one of those ways. Although some "don't see it", institutional racism happens because there are people who work with the preservation of the system. They "deny" what is going on because they don't experience it in the same ways that people of color and women do.

However, race-related talks (as I discuss in my other thread) are polemically based because there are certain messages that don't seem inocuous on its face that are being perpetrated because the speakers do not know how to articulate their views on race except superficially. And, emotional responses play a great deal into this.

There are others who think that the mere mention of someone's racial identity is racist because they "do not see color" and cannot articulate what skin color or identity means in the dominant culture.

When there are people who use such terms as "not seeing a color" or "fanning the flames of hate" when it comes to acknowledging racial difference, it points towards not being able to articulate race-related matters and how they affect people different than themselves.

It's not so much about acknowledging that they "don't see" the things that others discuss when talking about the disparities in society.

It is about having the background, the empathy and the insight to continue the conversation in an analytical matter without having to respond with such catch phrases that have undermined the debate of race-relations in society.

For people who don't want to deal with race or are afraid of confronting their own racial identity in an appropriate manner, catch phrases are all they have to frame their attitudes. And, they are afraid to learn anything else about diversity because it would run counter to their set beliefs.

Believe it or not, this is a pioneering discussion on the boards--especially when in the past there have been threads which only dealt with the gripes about other races ("Black people must stop complaining about the White Man!", "We Should Have A United Caucasian College Fund!").

It is very hard to discuss matters of race because it is personal and emotional. I've discovered that the only way to learn about issues of race is to analyze it and continue to work with it in an academic light. That means reading, posting sources, talking and being able to dissect what is being said and done within a race-related discussion. That also means having an interest in how some of the dominant culture might perceive these issues opposed to what people of color feel. And at the same time, having the empathy to reach out to others and continue to discuss this issue.

But simply talking about racial identity, racism and disparities in society does not fan the flames of hate. It does have the potential to educate others that not all of us have the same monolithic view of America.


[edit on 17-3-2007 by ceci2006]

Great post, Ceci.

For some reason, I haven't been getting the confirmation lately when I vote someone way above. But, I'm sure you'll have no problem believing that I voted you way above, Ceci.

Keep laying it down.

Originally posted by truthseeka
Great post, Ceci.

For some reason, I haven't been getting the confirmation lately when I vote someone way above. But, I'm sure you'll have no problem believing that I voted you way above, Ceci.

Keep laying it down.

Thank you for the WATS, truthseeka. I appreciate it very much so. I will try to do the best I can for this topic by analyzing it, dissecting it and discussing it. I simply wanted to say that people need to realize in order to discuss "White privilege" is to simply deal with it on its face without resorting to the old catch phrases that permeate race-related discussions.

There shouldn't be a problem with how frequently we discuss race or why we do so. We're bringing up issues that affect our daily lives. It is rather sad that some cannot believe what we're saying even though the sources tell the tale. It is easier to deride and ridicule because of fearfulness and uncomfortability.

Originally posted by ceci2006
There shouldn't be a problem with how frequently we discuss race or why we do so. We're bringing up issues that affect our daily lives. It is rather sad that some cannot believe what we're saying even though the sources tell the tale. It is easier to deride and ridicule because of fearfulness and uncomfortability.

People are not denying your reality. They are just questioning how much of it is real, and how much of it is self-inflicted.

Originally posted by ceci2006
Those who don't identify with others without any sort of empathy or conscience (especially if they suffer) are psychopaths. Choose to be one, if you like.

Nice... If you don't agree, you're a psychopath.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But you shouldn't have to give up your heritage or be taught that it is wrong in order to be part of the larger construct of America.

No, you shouldn't and you don't. Nobody "has to" give up their heritage. What does that even mean? How does one "give up their heritage"? I don't know where you're getting the idea that people "have to" give up their heritage. Before, you said they "choose to" now you're claiming that they "have to".

Originally posted by shooterbrody
Have you had to give up your heritage or culture to be part of america? (I am assuming you were born in the U.S.) If so how?

Good question. It's been asked MANY times, but never answered. And it will be deflected this time again, no doubt. Certainly, American sports is not one of the parts of the American Culture that have been rejected. In fact, they've been embraced. I guess one can pick and choose which parts of the American Culture and heritage are evil.

Originally posted by truthseeka
So, people who point out the racial hierarchy in American society are victims?

No. People who think that people of color and immigrants have to give up their own culture and be forced against their will to "assimilate" into some large, white, evil heritage to be able to survive in America (the states) are living in a victim mentality. People who feel they have no choice about the culture they celebrate (when they have EVERY FREEDOM to choose) are living in a victim mentality. People who pick and choose large portions of American culture to celebrate and embrace as their own, While protesting that they and others are "forced" to give up their own heritage (which is NOT true) are living in a victim mentality.

Nothing about racial hierarchy was mentioned.

Originally posted by shooterbrody
Only you chose how you feel. The only person that can make you angry, happy , sad...ect is yourself.

That's accountability! The direct opposite of Victim Mentality.

Originally posted by ceci2006
I've discovered that the only way to learn about issues of race is to analyze it and continue to work with it in an academic light. That means reading, posting sources, talking and being able to dissect what is being said and done within a race-related discussion.

Using only academic sources also means that you don't have to give your personal experiences. It means that you don't have to say whether or not YOU straighten your hair to perpetuate the myth that "assimilation" is the right thing to do. It means you don't have to say whether or not you have benefited from Affirmative Action. It means you don't have to talk about your education or your job or how successful you personally are in the big bad American culture. It means you don't have to reveal how American culture has been "forced" on you personally.

It's clear why you want to stick to the academic sources.

Originally posted by ceci2006
But simply talking about racial identity, racism and disparities in society does not fan the flames of hate.

No, but calling people psychopaths without empathy or conscience; accusing people of saying things they didn't; putting yourself up as some sort of bastion of racial equality, while attacking all dissenters, does. If you were "simply talking about racial identity", it would be great, but you're not.

Originally posted by ceci2006
We're bringing up issues that affect our daily lives. It is rather sad that some cannot believe what we're saying even though the sources tell the tale.

Sources don't tell the tale of how these issues affect your daily life. Your sources tell of how racism has affected the lives of other people, some, many years ago.

Originally posted by ceci2006
It is easier to deride and ridicule because of fearfulness and uncomfortability.

Is that why you do that? Disagreement is not derision and ridicule. Calling someone a psychopath is.