Religion and War!

Hello Guys,

I've recently been aboard a submarine as part of a training exercise, being on a sub made me feel very odd indeed!

I started feeling very spiritual, I thought of all kinds of things.

I'm not a Christian in fact I belong to no organised religion! I do however believe in a greater force, in my opinion to believe in nothing in rediculous becuase there had to be a cause for the universe, otherwise the theory of "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is immediatly debunked!

Anyway....

I went to visit the submarines chaplain and I asked him "How could a religous man do his job in the military? Certainly doing this job goes against all teachings of all religions!"

The Chaplain could not answer me...

Maybe the good folk of ATS could give me some feedback on this issue

Jimmy, I can understand where you are coming from. I suppose that regardless of whether you are religiou or spiritual, I suppose I fall more into the latter category than I do the former, one has to remember a couple of things.

1. There truly is a war raging, at all times, between "good and "evil." Now, the reason I put those words in quotation marks is because they are somewhat subjective. Now, don't get me wrong, there is a definite distinction between right and wrong; however, the subjectiveness comes in on the part of the performer.

Those who do "evil" or bad things often times think they are doing what is right. Most of that is based on their own morality and perspective.

2. One has to realize that some things are worth fighting for. Our personal freedom, lives and families are indeed worth fighting for. If you don't agree with that, then there is nothing that I can say to change your mind.

Now, I suspect that the conuundrum that you are coming across is the act of having to actually take someone's life in battle. Unfortunately, in war, everyone is trying to take the life of the "enemy." It's pretty much a kill or be killed scenario. It gets back to my reason number two as to why a spiritual person might fight.

As far as whether a spiritual person would even put themselves in a situation where they have to fight, that is debateable. It depends on one's perspective. Someone, like myself, who does believe that there are things worth fighting for and that there is a battle raging all of the time, probably wouldn't have qualms about going to war if necessary.

Jimmy, I don't know if my reply was necessarily what you were looking for.. As far as whether or not religions condone war... Well, not explicitly. However, through participation in them they just as well had.

Now, if you were to ask God whether war is right or not, I have a strong suspicion that God would look upon war with disfavor. Now, with that being said, it's important to realize that the bible, on the Christian end of the dabate, is riddled with war and such..

However, Jesus, despite what some say, would have one put down their weapons and turn them into plowshares.

Of course, when talking about religions of the far east, ummmm, you don't hear too much from the Buddhists of Hindus. Although the Hindus conflict with Muslims, but it seems that Islam fights with everyone. Hell, they even tried to start a conflict with the Buddhists when they tore down the statues of the Buddha in Afghanistan.

Like I said, the whole war issue is a matter of perspective. Do you think there are things worth fighting for,Jimmy?

[edit on 22-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
One has to realize that some things are worth fighting for. Our personal freedom, lives and families are indeed worth fighting for. If you don't agree with that, then there is nothing that I can say to change your mind.

The above things are exactly what alot of Iraqi men are fighting for! these men are dubbed terrorists or Insurgents by the west.

What am I fighting for?

I've been told to fight the man who is fighting for a better life for his children! The men I fight are no threat to MY family, values or freedom. The men I fight simply want to be free, I know his way of living is different to mine but why am I allowed to be able to judge who's way of life is a superior one?

I am fighting men who have been designated as an enemy by a very powerful man in Washington! although I did sign up to protect my country (therefore family/freedom/values) I feel queesy at the thought of killing a man who is fighting me for the same reasons I would fight him if he came to my land!

Originally posted by Jimmy1880

I've been told to fight the man who is fighting for a better life for his children! The men I fight are no threat to MY family, values or freedom. The men I fight simply want to be free, I know his way of living is different to mine but why am I allowed to be able to judge who's way of life is a superior one?

I am fighting men who have been designated as an enemy by a very powerful man in Washington! although I did sign up to protect my country (therefore family/freedom/values) I feel queesy at the thought of killing a man who is fighting me for the same reasons I would fight him if he came to my land!

Well, obviously, I am not over there. I am under the impression that most of the people that are fighting allied forces are not Iraqis... We are, at least I am, under the impression that many of the people that allied forces are fighting are Iranians and Syrians that have crossed the border. Now, this may or may not be true, but that is the impression that I am given.

Supposedly, the allied forces are over there to help Iraqis develop a "democracy" so that they may have a better future.. As much as I would like to believe that, I have a hard time thinking that our intentions are for anything more than economic profit. I may be wrong, but that suspicion does indeed enter my mind.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Like I said, the whole war issue is a matter of perspective. Do you think there are things worth fighting for,Jimmy?

My Son is worth fighting for! my country is worth defending! I would fight to protect people like me and you! I would not fight for the people I call Über patriots the like of whom I see alot of on ATS the brainwashed majority. I wish I didn't have to fight for powerful men with a grudge, I wish I was used for defending the good things in life, I wish I wasn't used to deprive other men of the good things in life!

Originally posted by Jimmy1880

I wish I wasn't used to deprive other men of the good things in life!

Jimmy,I am not certain that you are being used that way. While I certainly criticize politicians and such, I don't buy all of the hype. You can't or you will go nuts.

Should we be in Iraq? Well, if the real intention is to help Iraq better itself, I don't see a problem with it. However, if it's just to get a foothold into the Middle eastern oil reserves...no!!

[edit on 22-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
Well, obviously, I am not over there. I am under the impression that most of the people that are fighting allied forces are not Iraqis... We are, at least I am, under the impression that many of the people that allied forces are fighting are Iranians and Syrians that have crossed the border. Now, this may or may not be true, but that is the impression that I am given.

There are a handful of syrians and Iranians, the majority of the attacks is coming from angry fathers, brothers, cousins etc. who have watched familiy die who have watched to future for their children dissapear.

If somebody killed my Son I would have no quams about blowing him and his associates up!

We are most certainly in Iraq for long term financial gain, before Saddam the US had very little official trade with iraq, now the US buys 49% of all Iraqi exports of which 89% of all Iraqi export is OIL!!! The reparation contracts are also going to be huge the majority of which are held by BIG US firms.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880

There are a handful of syrians and Iranians, the majority of the attacks is coming from angry fathers, brothers, cousins etc. who have watched familiy die who have watched to future for their children dissapear.

Jimmy, what kind of future do you suppose they would have had before we came into Iraq?I know it sounds like I am defending our actions, I'm really not because I don't think e should be there,but, I am just trying to be realistic. They were living under a dictatorship.

It's easy to say, "Well, we should have let the Iraqi people take care of that." Well, truth is, they tried and nothing they did worked. I mean, what, as a moral nation, do you do in that situation. Continue to allow them to languish under a dictatorship and keep leveling sanctions that doesn't hurt the dictator but the people of the country? I mean, I just don't know what the answer is.

[edit on 22-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 22-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

The thing is the majority of Iraqis had a decent life, they had hospitals, food, power and a home.

Pre Iraq war, Iraq looked very similar to today's Iran. The sanctions imposed were the biggest killer of Iraqi people.

Dictatorships DO work in certain situations and not dissimilar to a monarchy, as in that one person has absolute power,

Eventually Saddam would have died, natural selection would have took charge.

The whole S. Hussain family were evil. His son tortured the national soccer team for losing etc. and no matter how heartless it sounds how many people has the CIA tortured recently?

The only nation that should really have to worry about middle east aggression is Israel but Israel has only itself to blame for the hatred shown towards it IMO.

The US/Europe have no reason to fear the military might of the Middle East.

Thanks for you input speakeroftruth I needed a spiritual converstion for a long time now

edit to add:

Saddam Hussain did do awful things to his people but I have recently seen new orleans and It looks worse than alot of Iraq does, and the US is the most powerful nation on the planet. I know Bush did not directly cuase the deaths and misery of the New Orleans people but to leave a major city in such a state of disrepair in the USA in IMO just as bad especially as the US has the means to fix it if it wants to.

[edit on 22/2/07 by Jimmy1880]

Originally posted by Jimmy1880

Thanks for you input speakeroftruth I needed a spiritual converstion for a long time now

Well, it started out as a spiritual conversation anyway.

on topic:

I feel spiritually torn and I want to still be in a position to protect my family/values and freedom but I feel the strings of the puppeteer and he's making me do something I feel is spiritually wrong.

edit to add:

I gotta go, take care buddy!

[edit on 22/2/07 by Jimmy1880]

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
on topic:

I feel spiritually torn and I want to still be in a position to protect my family/values and freedom but I feel the strings of the puppeteer and he's making me do something I feel is spiritually wrong.

Well, then I suggest you get out when your time is up. I mean, if you have signed yourself over to something that you feel is wrong, then all you can do is wait it out until your obligation is completed and get out of the situation.

For me, if I think something is spiritually wrong, I either:

1. Do not do it.

2. Stop doing it as soon as possible.

I am not sure how the military works where you are, but here in the states, you have to enlist for at least 4 years. Back in the day, they had a two year option but that has been done away with. I don't know how much longer you have in your enlistment, but if it doesn't feel right spiritually to you, then I suggest you quit as soon as possible.



[edit on 22-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Not to say what your saying is wrong; but imagine this if you will: if during WWII for example, every American soldier were like you, feeling it is "morally wrong" to fight and kill another man... evil would triumph on this world.

The best advice I can give you is to seriously examine what you're fighting for and examine why there is a need for good men like you to fight.

Originally posted by Jimmy1880
I'm not a Christian in fact I belong to no organised religion! I do however believe in a greater force, in my opinion to believe in nothing in rediculous becuase there had to be a cause for the universe, otherwise the theory of "every action has an equal and opposite reaction" is immediatly debunked!

well, i think you mean that causaulity would be debunked
because newtonian physics only work at the medium scale, and the big bang etc aren't on the medium scale
they are almost useless at the super massive and super miniature scales

Maybe the good folk of ATS could give me some feedback on this issue

well, it could be that religion actually has absolutely no problem with war and is simply paying lip service when it says it does
but that's just a tiny bit cynical