NYU Group Plans "Find The Illegal Immigrant" Event

Originally posted by goddogo1
When I think of illegal immigrants, I think of when all of our for fathers came over here and raped and murdered the Indians of North and South America. They were all illegal immigrants.

Are you saying that there were laws in place at that time that specified who could legally come to this land? And that our forefathers broke those laws by coming here? Can you show me the immigration laws of that time?

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic

Originally posted by goddogo1
When I think of illegal immigrants, I think of when all of our for fathers came over here and raped and murdered the Indians of North and South America. They were all illegal immigrants.

Are you saying that there were laws in place at that time that specified who could legally come to this land? And that our forefathers broke those laws by coming here? Can you show me the immigration laws of that time?

I think perhaps various Native Americans tribes might have had a couple of laws regarding theft, rape, pillaging, and invasion of territory, but since history and law were verbally communicated for the most part in North American tribes, you'll be hard pressed to find "legal records". However, if you can find someone who can accurately read the Mayan and other advanced Meso-American writings, then I expect you'll find quite a few laws there. Those, however, were mostly South America.

Oh, and for those of you who missed the irony.

The idea is this: You have this huge crowd of "Americans".

What's an illegal immigrant look like?

The game is to "find the illegal immigrant" among a crowd of Americans...

Is the irony completely lost on everyone but me?

These students aren't rallying against illegal immigrants, they're making a statement about how ridiculous it is to try and "get rid of all the illegals".

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
Guaranteed those kids get some sort of abuse by the other kids before the day is over today.

because of leftist radical terrorists that should have a nice long stay in guantanamo bay with their buddies. I see this crap all the time at the colleges, Columbia for example when they hosted the minute men. If you cant make your disagreeing point clear without resorting to violence and animalistic behavior then you belong in jail. Plain and simple. These kids have a right to express their views just as much as the left-wing anti-american marxist nutjob does.

i didn't see this thread before...

so i made this thread today:

the hunt for illegal immigrants game, sponsored by NYU...

Even if I throw away the influences my personal beliefs (which are subjective and personal) have on my opinion regarding this exercise, I am still left with what I feel is a relevant question:

What criteria will the students be using to "locate" illegal immigrants, and will the search for them increase the probability of suspicion or aspersion being cast on legal immigrants and American citizens of ethnic descent by the students doing the "locating?" If the answer to the latter half of this question is "yes," then does this exercise not live or die on its ability to arbitrarily regard certain segments of the student population as potentially suspect? If so, does it not then follow that the entire premise of this exercise is to look for guilt in a population that most assuredly contains innocence as well, solely on the basis of that population's heritage, appearance, or other arbitrarily determined factors?

This concern remains a factor in my thought process no matter how objective or impartial I try to be. This is why: If one is wholly impartial and objective, I can conceive of how this might be acceptable on the basis of logic i.e. if one assumes there are definitely illegal residents among the school's Spanish population (for instance,) then it makes logical sense to look among that population for illegal residents. However, since this is not an official body or agency trained to locate illegal immigrants or necessarily designed to be held to the same standards of just oversight as such agencies are (supposed to be,) then my question regarding arbitrary profiling leaves me with the implication that abuse and discrimination are serious dangers.

So, even when I try my best to be impartial and objective, I have a problem with this, to say nothing of my personal feelings regarding its nature, purpose, or implementation. As always, I have the utmost respect for those who disagree.

Edited for redundancy.

[edit on 22-2-2007 by AceWombat04]

Originally posted by thelibra
I think perhaps various Native Americans tribes might have had a couple of laws regarding theft, rape, pillaging, and invasion of territory,

Please don't mix in rape, pillage and theft in on top of it. Those are against the law and yeah, Native Americans probably had "laws" against them. But someone always brings up the Europeans coming here as being "illegal immigrants" and seeing as how Native Americans didn't even "own" land, I highly doubt they had laws to protect it from immigrants.

I'm just asking for verification on this assertion that we are all illegal immigrants.

[edit on 22-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Human immigration has been occurring ever since a bunch 'o hungry Neanderthals took a chance and crossed the mountains looking for victuals.

Humans will inevitably move to greener pastures. Our 'amber waves of grain' happen to represent those greener pastures.

Lines drawn on a map mean nothing to people looking for a better opportunity.

I know....makes me sound like a tree-huggin', bleedin' heart liberal, namby-pamby. Maybe. I'm also a realist. All the Internet forum ranting and rhetoric does nothing. As long as the United States has a porous southern border...illegal immigrants will be a fact of life.

Originally posted by Ox
Im not opposing the fact that being in the country illegally is illegal.. Im just saying that its in poor taste and when the illegal community does retaliate they will be ridiculed for it.. So why is it wrong to ridicule the antagonists?.. Most illegals are trying to make a living.. nothing more.

Nothing wrong with ridiculing the antagonists. Just, before you do, try to understand their point of view.

And in a very very subtle manner.. Whats the first race that comes to mind when the words "Illegal Alien" pop up? Hmm? Indian? Sri-Lankan? British? Canadian? No.. Mexican.. And we all know it.. there is no denying it. So in a way this is racist. Right?

Actually, hispanics are not recognized as a separate race according to the FBI crime statistics. They fall under caucasian.

And youre right, its not illegal to be gay .. or white.. It IS illegal to be gay and married though. But that's a different can of worms

Actually, it is NOT illegal to be gay and married. There is no law against it; there just is no law recognizing it in 47 of the 50 states. So a gay marriage cannot exist, therefore it cannot be illegal.

And you cant deny that I just made some AWESOME points.. Its ok.. You can admit it

Yes, and that's what we like to see... someone who tries to make their points in a sane, logical way. Keep up the good work.

They had this at my university a little while back, only it was called "catch an illegal immigrant day"... (not exactly a name with cheery connotations) a huge amount of people showed up in protest. Needless to say, not many people participated in the game.

Yes it's an issue, but there is not a clear solution. If you listen to personal stories there are so many complications... people who have children that are legal while they are not, etc etc... I won't pretend that I know a lot about this. But the solution is far from "it's against the law! Get out!"

Originally posted by Ox

A more appropriate statement would have been, "They probably dont commit that crime in such numbers as the Mexicans do because it's not as easy for them to cross the border"

Right?

Yeah ok I just couldn't be bothered to type all of that just to be specific, obviously Brits, Canadians, etc have committed that crime before but the point is that it is mainly Mexicans.

And the point still stands; that's why everyone thinks 'Mexican' when they hear 'illegal immigrant'. Nothing wrong with assuming if you're right 99% of the time.

There is something wrong with assuming.. Would you assume that a woman with short hair is a lesbian? Or that someone that is speaking in another language doesnt speak English? Or that every Mexican is illegal? You cant assume anything. And youre not 99% right. Again youre assuming. Compared to the number of legal residents and new American citizens, the number of illegals could be rather small.. I dont know. I'm not going to assume

Originally posted by Ox
There is something wrong with assuming..

I'm going to have to disagree that there's something inherently wrong with assuming. While I preach against it in general and preach to be aware, there are different degrees and types of assumptions. And we ALL make assumptions. Even you, Ox...

Based on experience:
I assume the person who will fix my car next week is a man.
I assume the waitress at my favorite Mexican restaurant is a Latina.
I assume the checkout person at WalMart is a woman.
I assume a someone named "Hip Doggy D" is black.

I make all these assumptions based on past experience and knowledge, without any moral or character judgments about the person. I make these assumptions the same way I make the assumptions that the sun will come up tomorrow, that my husband will be home from work at a specific time and that my dogs are playing peacefully in the yard. Based on experience. And there's no harm done if I'm wrong. So it's a woman who fixes my car. What a pleasant surprise.

Having said that, there's a difference between assuming based on experience (a safe assumption) and assuming based on something else like race or gender (an unsafe and prejudiced assumption).

In other words, to assume that an illegal immigrant is Latino, in these times and considering where I live (in the Southwest) is a fairly safe assumption. Of course it's going to be wrong sometimes. After all, my dogs might be in the yard chewing up my favorite shoes right now...

However, if I see a Latino on the street and assume he's an illegal immigrant because he's Latino, that is a "wrong" (unsafe) assumption.
To assume all men know how to fix cars because they're men...
To see a Latina and assume she's a waitress because she's Latina...
To see a woman and assume she's a checkout clerk at WalMart because she's a woman...
To see a black guy and assume he's a rapper because he's black...

These are dangerous (harmful, bad, wrong, unsafe) assumptions. Because it's taking the stereotype and applying it to every person in a group instead of calling on our experience to make safe assumptions.

I'm not sure that made sense but I had to give it a try.

[edit on 23-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]

Made perfect sense.. and that's what I was trying to convey. You just did it for me.. So.. Thanks..

Originally posted by Ox
There is something wrong with assuming.. Would you assume that a woman with short hair is a lesbian? Or that someone that is speaking in another language doesnt speak English? Or that every Mexican is illegal?

Er no because most woman that i've met with short hair aren't lesbians, so I wouldn't assume anything.

And I wouldn't assume that I know what languages someone speaks if I don't even know them.

But we can see that most US illegal immigrants ARE Mexican, that's why I DO assume on that.

[edit on 23/2/2007 by malganis]

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Are you saying that there were laws in place at that time that specified who could legally come to this land? And that our forefathers broke those laws by coming here? Can you show me the immigration laws of that time?

Now,everyone knows how I feel about illegal immigration. I think our borders should be sealed up. Not just the Mexican border but the Canadian as well.

However,I have to call you out on this one,Heretic. What gave Europeans the right to do what they did to the Native Americans? What? Please, do tell.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
What gave Europeans the right to do what they did to the Native Americans?

Nothing. They treated the Native Americans shamelessly. goddogo1 said that our forefathers were illegal immigrants and I simply asked what immigration laws they broke.

I'm not claiming that they were saints or that they did nothing wrong. But to call them illegal immigrants simply is incorrect.

Yeah it was bad that the Native Americans had their homeland taken over by immigrants, but there was nothing that they could do about it and it happened.

Modern day USA is a different place, that can do something about it.

Originally posted by WolfofWar
Ooh, he was in the president's cabinet all along!

Well that was a pretty stupid and racist comment. No wonder we can't have sensible discussion about illegal immigration in this country.

Originally posted by malganis

Er no because most woman that i've met with short hair aren't lesbians, so I wouldn't assume anything.

And I wouldn't assume that I know what languages someone speaks if I don't even know them.

But we can see that most US illegal immigrants ARE Mexican, that's why I DO assume on that.

[edit on 23/2/2007 by malganis]

About 57% of illegal immigrants are Mexican ... the rest are from other countries (many South American countries). So while yes technically the majority are Mexican it's not really that vast of a majority. I suppose to most Americans the latinos from South America also qualify as Mexicans.