So where do we point the finger (Masons your input is needed too)

There's some important quotes at the bottom which are helping us understand the problems in this world. I want everyone to read them because they are real historical quotes. Actual words that were said by important people.

I sometimes get a kick with the debate because sometimes I think the Masons go off the handle for the simple fact their lodge in Timbuktu isn't important enough to have any major influence whatsoever.

Most likely you should head to New York or Washington to the more important lodges.

Anyways I'm asking where should we point the finger? All you need to do is take one look at this world and it doesn't take a brain surgeon to realize that there is something wrong with the power structure. That the Corporate Elites simply have too much power in their hands and all thats to the all mightly dollar.

I mean. Americans have voting rights but when the leaders get into office there is no attention payed, no respect payed to the electorate. They are simply used and thrown away. The politicians act as if they don't need the electorates permission for anything.

Now I know alot of people always blame the Masons. And I can assure the people in lodges in the middle of nowhere that they aren't referring to you. But clearly something is up if people always take a look a masonry and find people like supreme court judges, bench judges, politicians, presidents in some cases. So when they see that something must be up. Royalty even. Even the Queen has a special rank in Masonry.

But where do we point the finger? Who's turning this world into crap? It's not just doing it randomly by itself. Everything happens for a reason.

"I am a most unhappy man. I have unwittingly ruined my country. A great industrial nation is controlled by its system of credit. Our system of credit is concentrated. The growth of the nation, therefore, and all our activities are in the hands of a few men. We have come to be one of the worst ruled, one of the most completely controlled and dominated Governments in the civilized world no longer a Government by free opinion, no longer a Government by conviction and the vote of the majority, but a Government by the opinion and duress of a small group of dominant men." -Woodrow Wilson

Since I entered politics, I have chiefly had men's views confided to me privately. Some of the biggest men in the United States, in the field of commerce and manufacture, are afraid of somebody, are afraid of something. They know that there is a power somewhere so organized, so subtle, so watchful, so interlocked, so complete, so pervasive, that they had better not speak above their breath when they speak in condemnation of it.

"...if the people ever knew the rank injustice of the international monetary system there would be a revolution before morning..." Andrew Jackson

And lastly of course Eisenhowers Farewell Address. He warned us flat out like the founding fathers. Don't surrender freedom for security. ANd look whats happening since 9/11. We're losing our God given Freedoms.

Clearly something is up in the world when the founding fathers tell you not to surrender freedom for security and when 9/11 comes along what debate are we posed with?

There's plenty more where that came from. Heck even Paul Craig Roberts has been saying 9/11 was an inside job and if Paul Craig Roberts is willing to take that chance when keeping in mind his history in politics well I'm inclined to atleast give him the chance to be listened too.


We just simply can't ignore the corruption that goes on in politics anymore. And i'm not attacking one group in particular I'm attacking the current system thats in place. If you take a hard look you'll see America today isn't the nation that the founding fathers created.





[edit on 21-2-2007 by Jotfish]

Folks see conspiracy where there is none.

Greed, self-interest, and stupidity are traits shared by most people, from the lowest bum to the most exalted politician.

When you have two cases of similar behavior, it's easy to say 'Gosh, those two must have been working together!" when reality is that both only have the human condition in common.

"...The individual is handicapped by coming face-to-face with a conspiracy so monstrous he cannot believe it exists." J. Edgar Hoover

"...The world will never know the true facts of what occured my true motives. The people who happen to have so much to gain and have material motive who put me in the position I'm in will never let the true facts come about..."

Ruby on Kennedy.

[edit on 21-2-2007 by Jotfish]

I'd like to see people lay off the rank and file freemasons, I doubt seriously that the freemasons are involved in anything underhand. That said the people at the top of freemasonry and other groups like them need to be srcutinised beyond what is regarded as reasonable, as they have the will and the way to cause endless trouble for humanity.

some of the suspects
Jesuits, Sovereign Military Order of Malta, Le Cercle, 1001 Club, Freemasonry, Opus Dei..... and others.

.

Originally posted by Jotfish
But where do we point the finger? Who's turning this world into crap? It's not just doing it randomly by itself. Everything happens for a reason.

"He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."

- John 8:7

The causes for corporate elitism, Zionist international-banking, prostitution, homosexuality, murder, wars for oil, atomic bombs, etc., the Black Lodge; are within ourselves.


Everything is interdependent.

The Transformation of Impressions

...If we do not know anything of the physical world but its impressions, then the physical world is not as external as people believe.

With just reason did Emmanuel Kant say: "the exterior is as the interior."

Then, if the interior is what counts, we must transform the interior. Impressions are internal. Thus, all objects, things and all we see exists in our interior in the form of mere impressions that incessantly vibrate inside our psyche. The mechanical result of such impressions have been all those inhuman elements we carry inside and which we have normally called "I"s, and which, all together, constitute the "myself."...

So it is the ego that is responsible for all this mess.


If we want to see external change, we must start with internal change.

An Internal Revolution.

An Introduction to the Esoteric Philosophy: Return & Recurrence

The Alchemists say, "We must turn the moon into the sun."

Man perfects himself by living the Christic Drama, and, in victory becomes a Solar Hero: a true Hercules.

This has not to do with evolution, but an Internal Revolution. The Internal Revolution is the Death, the Death of the "I," the ego.

The Christ of all times and ages is always a revolutionary.

[edit on 21-2-2007 by Tamahu]

Originally posted by Jotfish
But where do we point the finger? Who's turning this world into crap? It's not just doing it randomly by itself. Everything happens for a reason.
[edit on 21-2-2007 by Jotfish]

No its not random, and the world is turning to crap. And we are being manipulated to some end.

Information and money equals power, and who or what has all that?

.

The world is not turning to crap for those who are willing to work for it. The problem with modern society is that people want everything and they want it now. You don't get to be the leader of a country or a 33rd degree Mason without working hard and paying your dues. If your only ambition is to have a four wheel drive truck with a snowmobile in the back, you have to work hard for that, too. If you are going to point a finger, remember there's three more pointing back at you. I try to remind myself of this fact every time I look in a mirror.

I do see conspiracy everywhere. Every time there is a fat hog to butcher, huge amounts of cash or power available, there will be selfish interests who 'conspire' and cooperate with each other to better divest the masses of their hard earned wealth or freedom. The common denominator in all this is greed. Greedy people will cloak themselves in what ever religion, corporation, political view, country, government agency or fraternity which will best suit their purpose. And worst of all we end up blaming the CIA or the Jews or the Masons for what ever evil was done in their name.

Originally posted by Jotfish
I sometimes get a kick with the debate because sometimes I think the Masons go off...

If you bothered reading Eisenhower's address you would not be chasing Freemasons. Ike spelled it out for you, however since you seem to have missed it entirely I have provided and underlined his identification of the conspirators in the quote below.

“In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced corporate power exists and will persist. We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes.” -- Eisenhower

The only apparent reason for excluding Ike's quote in the original OP is that it refutes the accusations against Masonry, by spelling out in no uncertain terms that the military-industrial complex is to blame for the ills that you represent.

How's that for a kick? And you didn't even need to bend over.

I'm not directly attacking Masonry groucho. But I'm pointing out that if you look closely people of fairly important positions are part of these types of societies.

The Military Industrial Complex is an all encompassing term.

What is the Military Industrial Complex? What is the Federal Reserve? They are just two facets of power which are related and more then likely are connected.

What are the chances that people in these institutions are members of secret societies. Chances are very likely. For instance I learned that about 90 percent of those on the fortune 500 took part in the Greek societies or other similar types of secret societies.. It's no accident these people are on the list with help from their associations.

Samething with Bush. would he be president had he not been in Skull and Bones. A frat which has associations to Masonry I might add. Quite a few frats I've noticed are all rooted in Masonry. beliefs, rituals, chair positions.

And another earlier post pointing the finger back at me (us) !?! Whats that all about? I do my part. I'm a law abiding citizen. How can you possibly point the finger back at me for the way the world is going. For the way that the leaders are ruling and ruining this planet and all because of the corruption thats going on.

It's the politicians and globalization thats screwing the world over. Legal personality. Where corporations have more power and rights then the average everyday citizen.

Here's an important video of a Republican at a committee meeting. It's important to watch. www.youtube.com...





[edit on 22-2-2007 by Jotfish]

Jotfish,
I'm not defending Masonry from attack directly or indirectly. I'm refuting poor scholarship.

Originally posted by Jotfish
The Military Industrial Complex is an all encompassing term.

You want to apply one standard to yourself and a different standard to others as your use of the term "secret societies" is massively all encompassing. In fact, if the all encompassing claims were removed from your assertions you'd have nothing at all to type.

However Ike's all encompassing reference to the the military industrial complex has the benefit of being supported by the evidence. We can certainly document the trail of money that passes from the government to the individual corporations that compose the military industrial complex in great detail. Mountains of evidence exist in the Congressional Record, Department of Defense contracts and the General Accounting Office that specifically identify the criminals in the military industrial complex.

My assertion has the teeth of evidence that can be documented, your position is toothless and only based on questionable sources, rumors and hearsay. Believe what your heart desires, I could careless if you like Freemasons or not. I'm done with this topic.

[edit on 22-2-2007 by df1]

I can relate to your frustration Jotfish, I've been there. I used to be frustrated at the power that rich folks and politicians had, and complaining about it to my buddies in the coffee shop wasn't solving the problem quickly enough for my tastes. I too do my part to be upstanding and productive in my community so I decided to run for office (if you can't beat them, join them and change things from the inside). I was unsuccessful so I must work harder but the other 99 percent of people I see are still in the coffee shop complaining.

Originally posted by Jotfish
*snip* ...Skull and Bones. A frat which has associations to Masonry I might add. Quite a few frats I've noticed are all rooted in Masonry. beliefs, rituals, chair positions.

It might have something to do with the fact that Freemasonry is the oldest fraternity in the world.

Originally posted by carslake

Originally posted by Jotfish
But where do we point the finger? Who's turning this world into crap? It's not just doing it randomly by itself. Everything happens for a reason.
[edit on 21-2-2007 by Jotfish]

No its not random, and the world is turning to crap. And we are being manipulated to some end.

Information and money equals power, and who or what has all that?

Your right.

All people are minipulated to some degree, some more then others, some can escape it, others are prone to fall victim. The point though is that the minipulation, the control, the one who decides for you.. is that not important for the everyday workings of society work?

Allow me to elaborate..

People should have the right to decide the factors in life that have a direct but limited to some indirect effect on their personal lives. You have the right to choose if you wake up in the morning, what breakfast or any that you want, what kind of car you want, 300+ tv stations to watch, what kind of house to live in, where you live, how many kids you have, how many wives you have had, hundreds of places to shop, your choice of work, your choice of education, your choice of consumption, your choice to save, sell, buy, trade, or to use your money to make money. The government will never impede upon the basic right of the citizen, as the citizen who decides what fast food place he wants to go to, and that being the most important thing on his mind is a happy and content citizen.

The average person does not have the capability to make decisions on the national level, barley the local level, and absolutely ignorant on issues out side his border. The average person makes stupid choices, and the average person does not know what is best for him. He knows what will feel best, he know what he wants.. and he knows the necessity, and lacks the knowledge of what he needs.

The manipulation that you see around you, if you where to stop and look around you, is that of a government doing what needs to be done. Meanwhile it keeps Joe schmoe busy worrying about the cable bill and his house mortgage or that affair he’s having on his wife. You can elect the leaders you want, you can think you have a say, and you can think you made a difference in your world and the world as a whole, and you can think you could do better, or that if it was changed it would be smoother.. but your an average citizen who does not know, nor comprehend what you need, what the Republic needs.

This is not to talk down to you, people have their rights, but "rights" are limited to the necessity to give the appearance that you decide your own fate. Everything else is given to you, and any thing else can be taken away from you. A government that can build your highways, construct super structures, give you money for healthcare can just as easily reverse it at any time. And your not alone. There has never in our history been a completely free society, as free societies will fail under the flaws that make humans humans, and are swallowed or replaced by fixated organized governments. When the people are angry they can revolt, and install a new system that will in turn slowly mutate into its predecessor, because all societies and governments transform into some form of absolute rule. It happens because its needed.

And note, there is a very big difference between a state that gives you the idea of free destiny, and the governments that hand you a fate at birth, who decides what you eat, where you work, where you live and how much you make. One is a tyranny, and it is a beast that ran out of control that keeps its self held above the masses of the people through fear and disseat. But a government that gives you free destiny yet maintains the control needed to function in the most productive of ways is a good thing, as they control you in discrete ways to provide for your security and your way of life. A government like America is a hybrid system of choice and control, but it is by no means a tyranny, and in no way a police state.

As for who controls you and why, who manipulates your mind to make you think you want something, it cannot be a Fraternity. They can help influence those in control, but the power those in control is so great that it would be hard to sway. While Masonry is a powerful organization, it in no way has any control over your daily life. That is the government. And conspiracies aside, a government is a government, they do not need conspiracies to do what they do, not every leader is a puppet, not every government a mask. Just because America is extremely powerful does not mean someone controls it, but that it controls someone, governments are living entities and no one man can take control of it.. well they could but the skill and influence would have to be profound, and a baboon like Bush does NOT have that control. There is also the down side of Capitalism, which in America's unique case may be more influential and more manipulative then the government them selves.

So in conclusion, the average person has no right to the information that makes the government run, they do not have the right to know when the government stops a near nuclear attack or a large scale mass killing, or barley avoids war, or makes war, or the going ons of fiscal matters. And as for Masons.. being a Mason and knowing the people in my town as Masons, I would say that if we DID run the country the country would be a much, much better place. But that is my own biased opinion, just as I am conservative I feel my own opinions would be more inline then a liberal, and as I am a man I have a different perspective then a women would.

Hope I wasn't rambling.

I don't think the masons or any other secret socities are directly or indirectly to blame! Yes they are powerful but powerful is not necessarily always evil. In fact, from what I have come to understand I think masonry is a huge step in the right direction as it preaches religious and cultural tolerance for all regardless of all human diversity! The fact that a lot of successful and prominent politicians and professional people were or are currently associated with secret socities is more due to their educational background and outlook of life rather than a fraternity developed for local or world domination. I think higher educated people are more likey to join a fraternity(including masonry) than the average joe who just wants to get bye and make ends meet. They are too preoccupied with survival and just stick to their preconceived notions not to mention they think its "evil"! In other words, not everything is for everyone!

Surely some people must use fraternities and "the system" just to get ahead but I don't think it is the majority. If anything its a very small minority that sooner or later get exposed and expelled! Anyway, maybe I am somewhat naive but I hate to make everything black and white as some people tend to do!

I will agree with the previous poster in most aspects, however, I despise capitalism From my research into conspiracies, including ufo/alien technology and american domination I think the military/industrial elite should be blamed in its entiriety! It all starts from corporate politics and works its way to "national security". In other words, corporations do what is best for corporations and not what is good for soceity in general. They have one goal in mind and that is to increase profits and make shareholders happy even if that means selling more weapons and starting more wars!

I will also disagree with the above poster in that people DO have power over government, at least in democratic countries such as USA and Europe! If people are not happy they have a right to voice their concerns and march on Washington! The governments will eventually get the message and change but change is a slow process and does not happen overnight! While in theory this may seem difficult in reality it is even more difficult as people have to unite their voice and not be afraid! You will NOT be shot for protesting and all governments need a reality check every now and then so they get the message!

No one is truely above the law! People should always remember that!

I suspect that those you least suspect are the real culprits behind it all. I have my suspicions, but it cannot be conclusively proven because my suspicions are out of the mainstream consideration for the culprits.

But where do we point the finger? Who's turning this world into crap? It's not just doing it randomly by itself. Everything happens for a reason.

I rarely post at ATS but for this subject, I will. Where to point the finger. For the old timer masons here Im certain I have been a pain, a detractor, a problematic child. But at the same time I have been the "Sniper On The Hill", the double agent, the muse, and the see'er, an Iconoclast.

I care not for any government, or loyalty to a fraternal organization. We all have been pitted agaist each other, covertly, to keep our eyes shielded from the true guilty party.

We have open societies pitted against secret societies. Dems against the Repub, the white against the black, the christ against the anti christ, government against government, intelligent against ignorant, the list is endless. But who creates and fosters this corrupt chaos?

It seems no one takes credit for this condition yet virually all of us take part in its execution in full and glorious ignorance. Who is suffering, who is not. Humanity takes great pride in killing itself for one diluted reason or another. The answer to this question must be taken back to the orgins of mankind itself, and the reason for our exsistance.

It is said threw the Sumerian materials that present day man was created as a slave. If that be true, do you believe the "creators" of this present day mankind truely have a respect for thier creation? Do you feel as though you are free or enslaved.

It might be well and true that the physical body we inhabit was created for the sole purpouse of slave labor, but our souls remain free, as long as we do not submit to the creators well organized system of mind control threw institutions.

It is true everything happens for reasons. Your present day bondage is not physical, it is psycological. Do you really believe the slave masters want thier slaves to be empowered by the truth? They have gone to great effort to keep you busy with truths, half truths, and outright lies. And as long as you do not look in thier direction you are free to fight each other in any fasion they see as appropriate. You are free to posion each other with mercury and fluoride, and profit from it. You are free to create religious systems that confuse and misdirect the flock of humanity. But the moment you attempt to expose the truth, no matter how beautiful or ugly it is, you are marked for hard labor.

Humanity from its inception was segrigated and controlled. Some of humanity were mislead into believing they were the "slave masters" when in fact, they were not. They continue to live in isolation thinking they are safe from the coming "judgment", they are not. They will suffer the same fate as the rest of humanity, unless they come to reginize that the spirit within humanity, all of humanity, can never be overcome. It can never be held in captivity for very long. It can never be defeated. It will continue to ignite the flame of freedom as long as there is a body to hold it. This spirit is the true miracle of God and its on the march!

Point the finger at those who keep the secrets and foster the attitude that there are those who are not worthy of the truth. They hold the secrets that will free humanity from the corruption and chaos.

Frequency 23 X-mas Special

I pointed the finger at the Skull and Bones. Two days later I saw 'The Good Shepard' and regreted mentioning it at all.

I can only hope they find it quaint...

Enjoy,

Chris Titan
frequency23.net...