guilt by DNA

page: 1
2
<<   2 >>

log in

join

posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 03:50 PM
link   
i know this will make some people upset but i am not personnel responsible for what my great grand father did or didn't do and i am not sorry for the actions of people i never knew, he may have killed your great grand uncle or kicked his dog or what ever but i did not and i will only carry the guilt for my actions, if you think i owe you something for there action that's your problem not mine. hell go back far enough and you might owe me! so pay up.




posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 11:15 PM
link   
So what exactly did you ancestor do that people have a problem with.

I do get what you saying with this, how someone will haver a problem
with another just because there ancestor did something to there ances-
tor along time ago.

Sort of like some of those people now a days who will try and sue the
descendants of someone because they were slave owners, or how
some people are trying to sue companies that bought and sold slaves
when it was acceptable/legal.


I understand if the person them self was directly effected, like the
Japanese-Americans who were put into the camps during the war,
those individuals are entitled to apologies and any money they lost

and stuff like that, but when it comes down to your grandma being
one of those people, and you were born after the fact, you really are
not entitled to anything.



Anyways, I don't know if that is exactly what you were getting at,
but I figured I'd add my thoughts.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 11:57 PM
link   
bingo, that's the bunny. i get so tired hearing people complain about their ancestors problems.



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 12:46 AM
link   
Is people getting blamed for what their ancestores did or didn't do. Blame the person responsible and let it end there.



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 01:14 AM
link   
Iori is right, wccsar. You're new, but, in the future, you might want to be more specific in your OP. This thread probably belongs in Rants.

Aside from that, the premise that no one today is affected by slavery/discrimination is patently false. I could show you pages and pages of source material, but I won't, since no one ever reads it anyway. If you're truly interested in the flaws in your argument, I would be happy to point you in the right direction.

And, welcome to ATS!

Iori, my dear friend, I think you're missing the point entirely. If white Americans (like the OP's forefathers, ostensibly), who were in charge of everything at the time, had compensated the slaves when they were freed, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

They didn't.

Debts don't disappear just because you neglect to pay them; they simply accrue interest.


Hell, even those illegal workers who didn't get paid for Post-Katrina work had the ability to sue for their money. Black Americans didn't have those same rights until very recently, hence the increased vigor of the reparations movement.



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 01:24 AM
link   
My people were slaves to Turks, for a couple of hundred of years. Spanish were concered by Arabs. Europen were concered and enslaved by Atila the Hun.

I am angry at Hungarians and Turks - they should give me a lot of money and they should feel guilty!!!!!!!!!!



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 09:05 AM
link   
post Katrina workers are hardly the same thing as some ones great grand father the workers were owed by the people who hired them not by his great grand son. i and every one else is and can only be responsible for my actions not those of others whether those others were related to me or not. by the argument that your ancestors crimes are your you say your heritage is guilty that very close to the reasoning of racist and Nazi's.

as far as i know my ancestors did not own slaves but this is not about slavery, if you have traveled in the world you see it all the time people killing each other about something their grand feathers did or did not do. the Greeks and Turks are at each others throats because of it. there are many national and ethnic hatreds that stem from deeds long pasts. until we can get over this we are doomed to relive our great grand fathers pain.

on a side note there should be a way to shift or move a thread as sometimes it's hard to know where it should go.



[edit on 21-2-2007 by wcssar]

[edit on 21-2-2007 by wcssar]



posted on Feb, 22 2007 @ 01:26 AM
link   

Originally posted by wcssar
post Katrina workers are hardly the same thing

I was using that example to make a point: contemporary illegals have rights that we did not have, although we were actually citizens of this country (right after the Civil War, when all of this should have been handled).



by the argument that your ancestors crimes are your you say your heritage is guilty that very close to the reasoning of racist and Nazi's.

So, let's be clear: you're calling me a Nazi because my ancestors were forced into work camps and I've expressed an interest in compensation. Hmmm.... there's something wrong with your reasoning, I think.

Nobody is asking you for anything. You, most likely, are like everyone else: barely making it. The reparations claim is made against the federal government, who received tax revenue, and corporations who made money from what were essentially unconstitutional trade practices.



if you have traveled in the world you see it all the time

This has nothing to do with the rest of the world. This is internal, US-US stuff... you know, the country that bills itself as the World's Police, fights for the underdog, etc.

I love how, when it's the US who's at fault, all the rules change. We actually invaded another country (Iraq), in part, for how they treated their ethnic minorities, but act shocked and dismayed when our own ethnic minority asks that past wrongs be addressed fairly. What hypocrisy.



people killing each other about something their grand feathers did or did not do.

Um, nobody is getting killed over slavery, Jim Crow, or reparations.



on a side note there should be a way to shift or move a thread as sometimes it's hard to know where it should go.

If you want, you could ask the mods to move it.



posted on Feb, 22 2007 @ 07:17 AM
link   
i am not calling you or anyone else a Nazi i just said that holding you responsible for your linage or ancestors was close to what the Nazi espoused. if you choose to put on the shoe it not me that's to blame. so don't try to bait me into a flame war I'm a conscience's objector in that regard.



posted on Feb, 22 2007 @ 11:37 PM
link   

Originally posted by wcssar
i just said that holding you responsible for your linage or ancestors was close to what the Nazi espoused.

And I'm saying that that's an oversimplification veering dangerously close to ignorance. I will repeat myself in the hopes that you actually read, and consider, what I'm saying:

Nobody is asking you [as anyone's descendant] for anything...The reparations claim is made against the federal government, who received tax revenue, and corporations who made money from what were essentially unconstitutional trade practices.


so don't try to bait me into a flame war

"Flame war"?! I think you're exaggerating a bit. If you had been here longer than a month, you would know what a real "flame war" looks like... but, as it is a part of 'ATS culture' to be kind to the new folk among us, please allow me to impart some ATS knowledge I've picked up over the last few years (one as a member, two as a lurker): 1) If you want to be taken seriously, don't make false accusations; and 2) Attack the message, not the messenger. Seems simple enough, but you would be surprised at how much off-topic drama could be generated by a comment like yours, given the 'wrong' member. So, nice meeting you, and I hope you enjoy your time here.



posted on Feb, 23 2007 @ 10:27 AM
link   

Originally posted by wcssar
i get so tired hearing people complain about their ancestors problems.


I wonder... where are you hearing people complain about their ancestors' problems? Has someone here said that you are responsible for what your great grand father did or didn't do? Has someone said that you owe them something?

Sorry for all the questions, but I'm trying to discover if this is something you've actually experienced or it's something you think other people are feeling...

I'm interested in this topic in general, so I wonder what motivated you to start this thread. Any information is greatly appreciated. Thanks.



posted on Feb, 23 2007 @ 01:07 PM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Has someone here said that you are responsible for what your great grand father did or didn't do? Has someone said that you owe them something?

Exactly. That's how it sounds.

Clarification would be useful, wccsar.

[Off-topic sidebar: BH, I haven't had time to post like I used to, but expect a U2U from me within the next few days.]



posted on Feb, 23 2007 @ 04:52 PM
link   
1: i do appreciate the input here as i am new and have not done much of this kind of thing.
2:i lived in Greece and traveled in turkey in the 70's and the atmosphere was rife with " I'll get you for what your ancestors did to mine" or you dirty Greeks/Turks owe us for what was done to my grand father. i saw a lot of places in my travels and one thing i noticed was not very far beneath the surface of many cultures is a thread of hatred for some other culture that is bases on what was done mostly a long time ago.
3: slavery was never a main theme in what i was asking about, but i can see that it would be a topic that if my recent ancestors had been slaves would not be easily overlooked.
4: my work mate in the phone company was paid reparations by the government as he and his parents spent years in internment camps. they had to leave all of their stuff behind and could only pack a bag before they left for the camp, so their loss was obvious.
5:flame war. no i have not seen one and am not interested in such, when a thread just becomes name calling and such it is about as interesting as watching kindergartners squabble on the playground. i have seen interesting site degrade because of it.
6: reparations should be as you have said the realm of the government since it was the law/policy of the government that made it legal, and as such to " punish" a person for doing what was legal at the time is retroactive justice which is not justice at all.
7: i just feel that old hatreds must be allowed to die, at some place we must get over the past or it will drag us back into the same patterns of hate and violence that killed our grand fathers and i fro one don't care to fight you or anyone else because some one's sheep went missing 100 years ago.


[edit on 23-2-2007 by wcssar]



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 07:51 AM
link   

Originally posted by wcssar
2:i lived in Greece and traveled in turkey in the 70's and the atmosphere was rife with " I'll get you for what your ancestors did to mine" or you dirty Greeks/Turks owe us for what was done to my grand father

Given your experiences, I could definitely see you being disgusted with any 'back in the day' references, but the US situation is very different from the one you describe.

For one, we're not talking about 'ancestors,' in the great-grand parents sense of the word. Here's a single example: My own mother, born well into the 20th c., paid taxes for many years, to a government that would not allow her to attend public institutions of higher learning. So, she had paid for a university education many times over, but was still restricted from receiving it. That directly affected me, as the earning potential of one's parents greatly affects the quality of life and earning potential of the child.

Is my loss obvious?

Does it make sense to you now why some people still consider this a pertinent conversation?



3: slavery was never a main theme in what i was asking about, but i can see that it would be a topic that if my recent ancestors had been slaves would not be easily overlooked.

Thank you for your understanding.



5:flame war. no i have not seen one and am not interested in such, when a thread just becomes name calling and such it is about as interesting as watching kindergartners squabble on the playground

I understand you and agree whole-heartedly. However, I did not once call you names, as that is not my posting style. Anyone can attest to that, even those who disagree with me.



6: reparations should be as you have said the realm of the government since it was the law/policy of the government that made it legal

And that's all I'm saying. I don't blame you, or BH, for anything, other than not standing with us to demand the US gov't right this egregious wrong.



we must get over the past or it will drag us back into the same patterns of hate and violence that killed our grand fathers

Here in the US, the patterns of hate and violence that killed 'our grandfathers,' in my case, black men, still exist.

Then, it was the Klan: gangs of local white men organized by local white community leaders and white law enforcement (which we, black people, were also paying for, but getting no benefit from). They hunted us down for minor infractions (ie, looking at a white woman) and lynched us.

Now, it's the police: local men of all colors organized into an inherently racist structure, wherein they are instructed to 'over-police' certain neighborhoods. That doesn't mean that they actually come when we call; it means they harass us. (Harlem in the summer looks like a S. African bantustan, with police cars slowly driving by and glaring at blacks. Even I, decidedly non-criminal, have begun to scowl at their approach.) Again, these gangs of armed men hunt us down for minor infractions (Amadou Diallo was shot 41 times for "looking like a suspect" and then reaching for his ID) and kill us like animals.

Many argue that there are lots of police of color, so racism isn't the root cause of these contemporary murders. Black leaders counter that what makes it racist is that the victim is always a man of color (African, American, Caribbean, whatever). Always.

This is not the past, and this is most certainly not about sheep. In the American context, these issues are still very pertinent to a large portion of the population.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 09:32 AM
link   

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
And that's all I'm saying. I don't blame you, or BH, for anything, other than not standing with us to demand the US gov't right this egregious wrong.


Just so you and everyone knows, you're right. I don't stand with you to demand that the US gov't "right this wrong"... because I don't think they can. I'm not crazy about getting into a discussion about reparations particularly, but I do want to say something here about my standing with you (and blacks in general).

I stand with you for equal rights.
I stand with you for the elimination of institutional and individual racism and discrimination.
I stand with you for the truly equal treatment of all people.

Reparations would do none of these things, IMO.

But no, I don't support anyone trying to "right this wrong", because I don't think it's possible and if they tried, equality would still be just a dream. If the government somehow tried to make it right, there would still be racism and discrimination. And it would be worse than before, because of the people who would resent blacks and their tax money being spent on it.

If I thought that there were some way for the government to make up to you what you've lost, if I thought once reparations were paid, racism and discrimination would be gone, I would support it 100%! I would gladly see my taxes go for such a worthy cause... if I thought it would "right" anything. But it won't

Secondly, many people have been "screwed" by the government, by life, by other people and by their friends and family. People get abused, people get raped, people get oppressed, people starve, go without medical care, people get beaten, battered and bruised, people die. And most of the time, they have no recourse.

Why should some people get compensation and others not?

HH - I support you in your desire to go after reparations from the government if you think it's what you want and if it's what you want to do, because you're my friend and I care about you. I say, "go for it". But I can't, in good conscience, stand by you and demand what you want. Because I think it would be a disaster for you to get it.

This country needs to continue to move toward equality for all people. I DO stand by that. And I champion the cause to get the laws changed so that gay people will be treated equally under the law. But I would be out of integrity with myself to say that I think reparations would do any good to you or to them, at all. I think we need to move forward, not have hope of making the past right. Because, IMO, it cannot be done.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 10:19 AM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Just so you and everyone knows, you're right.

But, of course!




I don't stand with you to demand that the US gov't "right this wrong"... because I don't think they can.

The US government making financial restitution to the descendants of slaves is only one part. When our government finally decides to deal with black people fairly, it may begin to trickle down to the people, but as long as the top guys (and 'gals') are in denial, the herd will follow.

edit to add a response to a comment I didn't catch the first time:


Because I think it would be a disaster for you to get it.

That's not your call. I don't recall anyone proclaiming that it would be a disaster if the Jews got reparations, or the Japanese, or the Native Americans... I wonder at the motivation behind such a comment.




This country needs to continue to move toward equality for all people. I DO stand by that.

That's a cop-out.

Reparations does not address discrimination and racism. It's not meant to. A sum of money could never begin to touch the pain and suffering caused by slavery, Jim Crow, and everything else.

Reparations is deferred payment for forced labor, period. It is not a panacea for everything wrong with American race relations, and I never said it was.

When you can show me some gay Americans who were put into labor camps due to their sexuality, I will agree with you.

[edit on 24-2-2007 by HarlemHottie]



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:34 AM
link   



Originally posted by HarlemHottie

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Because I think it would be a disaster for you to get it.

That's not your call.


But it is my opinion.




I wonder at the motivation behind such a comment.


The motivation is belief. It's what I believe. Racism exists here. In spades. It would get worse. Discrimination would balloon. Many people who pay taxes would think, "Hey, girl! Debt paid, I don't owe you a DAMN thing"! Hate crime would rise. Racial tension would escalate. Racism (both ways) would increase. That's what I believe. THAT is my only motivation.





Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
This country needs to continue to move toward equality for all people. I DO stand by that.


That's a cop-out.


Not from my perspective. That may be your judgment of my statement, but it's my heartfelt reality, not a cop-out.


Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Reparations does not address discrimination and racism. It's not meant to...
Reparations is deferred payment for forced labor, period.


If reparations are simply deferred payment for services rendered, and have nothing to do with current racism or discrimination, then they would be paid only to descendants of slaves, and the funds for such payments would come from a special tax levied only against descendants of slave owners.

This debt, if we agree it exists, cannot be transferred to the population at large. Here's why: If someone owns a house and still owes money on it, and they die, then their relatives (descendants) inherit the burden of the debt. A non-related person who happens to be living in the house and benefiting from the house, does not inherit any part of the debt for the house, even if they continue to live in it.

This same principle would apply in the case of reparations to descendants of slaves for services rendered. And I would totally support the above scenario of payment for services rendered.

Yes, the government would "pay", but using the tax levied against descendants of slave owners, not taxes that the population at large paid into. The only fair way to "charge" the government for this is if we determined the policy-makers of the time who supported slavery and levied a tax against their descendants as well as the slave-owners' descendants.

If these reparations were deferred payment for forced labor, period, we'd also have to figure wages at the time of slavery to determine the amount owed. And we'd have to subtract room and board (as meager as it was - it was given). And then we'd have to know who all were slaves and have accurate records of their descendants.

Isn't that the only fair way to do this? Because if the government uses my taxes (me not being the descendant of slave-owners) to pay "black people" (many not the descendants of slaves) some arbitrary amount of money in reparations... Is that fair? I'm not saying this is your take on it. It's one I've heard.


[edit on 24-2-2007 by Benevolent Heretic]



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:23 PM
link   

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
they would be paid only to descendants of slaves,

Absolutely. Who suggested otherwise?



and the funds for such payments would come from a special tax levied only against descendants of slave owners.

I disagree here.

The federal government is guilty of legalizing and unconstitutional practice. The money should come out of the government's coffers, however they manage to get it.

Individuals will have to make their peace, if they feel that they need to, some other way.



This debt, if we agree it exists, cannot be transferred to the population at large. Here's why...

If I may tweak your example a bit, I see this situation differently. It's more like, someone builds a house on an Indian burial ground, their descendants live there happily, and invite the new guy to move in. When the fed's come knocking, to make it a historical site or whatever, the new guy has to leave too. It doesn't matter if they knew it or not.

In case the purpose for my changes are unclear, "when the fed's come knocking" is a reference to the federal government using tax dollars accumulated from the entire population to pay this centuries-old debt.

Because, if you really think about it, black Americans would also be funding out own restitution, and that's not fair either.

That's what happens when you wait to long to fix and old problem. It becomes more difficult to fix.



If these reparations were deferred payment for forced labor, period, we'd also have to figure wages at the time of slavery to determine the amount owed. And we'd have to subtract room and board (as meager as it was - it was given).

I wouldn't want to put to fine a point on that part yet. This country has paid reparations before, and we were instrumental in making sure the Jews got their reparations. I'm sure there are pre-established ways to tabulate the amount.

I doubt that the Germans deducted 'concentration camp' expenses from Holocaust survivors.




And then we'd have to know who all were slaves and have accurate records of their descendants.

Of course.

(btw, I say "who-all" too.
)



Because if the government uses my taxes (me not being the descendant of slave-owners) to pay "black people" (many not the descendants of slaves) some arbitrary amount of money in reparations... Is that fair?

Is it fair that my tax dollars are going to Iraq, even though I objected from day one?

No, but we don't get much of a choice when it comes to how they spend our money. I would think that Americans, tired of our government killing people with our money and destabilizing foreign governments, would jump at the chance to do something positive.

Wouldn't it be a surprise if, instead of succumbing to our baser emotions, reparations were paid, and the whole population realized, Hey- we can get them to do what we want!



I'm not saying this is your take on it. It's one I've heard.

I think I said this before, but the form that reparations would come in is negotiable. Many black groups are proposing community initiatives with the money, as opposed to individual checks to black Americans. I don't know where people are getting this (wrong) idea.

I blame fear-mongering...

(for some reason, I can't preview this post, so I may have to edit.)



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 12:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Nobody is asking you [as anyone's descendant] for anything...The reparations claim is made against the federal government, who received tax revenue, and corporations who made money from what were essentially unconstitutional trade practices.


....... and that money comes from us. Our taxes. And as far as corporations that would mean an increased cost of goods and services to cover 'payments' which again would come from us.

The money would have to come from somewhere .. and that would be us. So yes, when anything like this is discussed it absolutely is 'asking something from us'.

As far as unconstitutional trade practices ... slavery was legal and I don't recall seeing anything in the constitution that said it was not. Slaves weren't 'Americans' and didn't have Constitutional rights anyways.

But .. I agree with you HH ... this needs to be in RANT. I am sure that there are plenty of threads that have already been running in favor of/against payments to those black Americans who had slave ancestors, so this is really a RANT thread.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 01:03 PM
link   

Originally posted by HarlemHottie
Absolutely. Who suggested otherwise?


I think that's part of the problem, I'm not sure what you're suggesting happen. I made clear what I would support. Will you make clear what you'd like to see?




I disagree here.

The federal government is guilty of legalizing and unconstitutional practice. The money should come out of the government's coffers, however they manage to get it.


Noted.




Individuals will have to make their peace, if they feel that they need to, some other way.


I feel that ALL individuals should make their peace with the past.




If I may tweak your example a bit,


You "tweaked" it beyond all recognition.




It's more like, someone builds a house on an Indian burial ground, their descendants live there happily, and invite the new guy to move in. When the fed's come knocking, to make it a historical site or whatever, the new guy has to leave too.


But the new guy doesn't have to PAY or LOSE anything to the Indians for the mistakes made by the people who built the house. In fact, he has to go find somewhere else to live. You said you wanted "deferred payment for forced labor, period." You changed the story completely.



Because, if you really think about it, black Americans would also be funding out [our] own restitution, and that's not fair either.


Yes. Tell me more about that. Would white Americans who are decendants of slaves also receive reparations in equal amounts?



This country has paid reparations before,


For deferred payment for forced labor?



I doubt that the Germans deducted 'concentration camp' expenses from Holocaust survivors.


A. I believe those were paid to the actual survivors, not their descendants.
B. I thought we were talking about black American reparations. You aren't deflecting, are you? Please don't bring up other countries when it's convenient and disallow them when it's not.



(btw, I say "who-all" too.
)






No, but we don't get much of a choice when it comes to how they spend our money.


Yes, you're right. We don't get much of a choice, but I'm talking about my 'druthers' here. And if the government decides to pay reparations, I will continue to pay my taxes, and I will continue to bitch about where they're going.





top topics
 
2
<<   2 >>

log in

join