'Sport Killings" of the homeless on the rise

www.cnn.com...

Prosecutors say 17-year-old skateboarder Tom Daugherty, 18-year-old Brian Hooks, a popular hockey team captain, and a third unseen teen, Billy Ammons, a high school dropout, assaulted two more homeless men that night.

One of them was 45-year-old Norris Gaynor. A witness, Anthony Clarke, told police and CNN last year that he saw the three teens approach Gaynor as he slept on a park bench. Daugherty began whacking Gaynor with a bat, Clarke said.

As Gaynor lay dying, Ammons shot him with yellow paintballs, later remarking that the beating felt like "teeing off," police said.

Gaynor was beaten so badly his own father didn't recognize him. Facing life in prison, the teens face trial for murder later this year. They have each pleaded not guilty to one count of first-degree murder and two counts of attempted murder.

This is just one of many stories regarding this issue. The common string happens to be that those who commit the assaults were widdle class, white male teenagers. Most often, they do it because they were bored, and wanted to have some fun.

So why is this happening? From my point of view, it seems that being raised in suburbia tends to further the divide between classes. Homeless people are like a novelty to them rather than actual people. It's like pulling the wings off a bug, or stepping on an ant. In the primary story, the kids were even drinking beers with a man, until they got bored, and beat him to death.

To me, this is the worst type of murder.

Very sad indeed.

I am not prepared to hear how society, parents, and the education system are responsible for this murder, or any other like it. These young people chose their fate and they outright tortured an innocent sole for their own pleasure. They deserve everything that they have coming to them and should never be able to taste freedom again. I don't think society, parents, and the education system are responsible for this, but I do believe that the three can certainly work together to prevent actions like these from occuring in the future.

If we teach a child the importance of a life, regardless of insignificant details, then maybe we can understand that we are all a guest in this "thing" we call life. A homeless life is as valuable as our neighbor. I believe the message is being lost through our blatant bias which is directed to our youth from conversations with parents, teachers, and society altogether. A life is a life is a life, it is time for all of us to understand this, and adjust our behaviours accordingly.

Young people today are labeled as disrespectful and deviant to authority figures. Well, that may be the case, but it is no different then ten, twenty, thirty, or forty years ago. The only difference is the way "we" handle it.

Homeless people are not a novelty, and their rights need to be respected. A "Hate Crime" of this sort needs to be punished to the fullest extent of the law. Life without parole. As heinous and horrendous as this crime is, these young people need to rot in a cell for a very long time to think about their behaviours. Sticking a needle in their arm is going to do little to provide restitution.

--

A little experience I had this past week with a homeless individual that is having a tough time fading from my memory. I live about forty minutes outside of a relatively big city. From time to time we venture in for the day, or night, and take in an event. Well, this past Friday we drove in early in the morning and stayed over night. Friday afternoon we were on our way to the Mall, and as we pulled up to an intersection, there was a young man on the sidewalk shaking like a leaf, holding a sign that I could not read. Now, when I say it was bitterly cold out, I mean it was bitterly cold out. I could see him shaking from quite a distance away, and my heart literally broke. The light was green, and traffic was moving. I pulled up along side the man and offered all of the change in my pocket, which was about six or seven dollars. Not much, but it certainly can help. As I went to pull away, my girlfriend finally found a five dollar bill and threw it his way as well. In the mere seconds that passed through the interchange, his genuine gratification was very clear.

But, in the process of giving this young man a few dollars, I happened to hold four or five cars up in the process. The green light turned to red and a few of us were forced to wait in the line up an extra 45-60 seconds and wait for the light to turn green again. Now I was amazed how many times four or five cars actually honked the horn at me out of frustration for holding up their day. I mean, forget that this man looked near death on the side of the road, these last forty seconds that my inconsiderate ass took from their day was definitely work behaving in the manner that they had. Watching the man behind me beat on his steering wheel as he hit the horn was something that sticks in my memory.

So like Ras has said, "they" as in homeless people, have become more of a novelty than a real person.

It is embarrassing to think that I consider myself a human being along side some of these people.



[edit on 20-2-2007 by chissler]

Is that a majority of the homeless are U.S. veterans who were marginalized by the country that they defended. Until we can teach our children to see them as people not objects to be toyed with, this will never change.

The people that do these kinds of purely anti-social crimes are the very types that need to be executed. These yahoos took a conscious step outside of the bonds of society and then attacked it. They're worthless. I can understand crimes of passion, I don't condone it, but at least I can see that a person that commits a crime of passion and the like doesn't have an abnormal personality or a criminal mentality. These dumb goons clearly do.

And the best/worst part is, imagine what these yahoos would've become if they'd never been caught for murdering this bum. What part of society would they find themselves in, and what would they be doing and responsible for? How many people in positions of power and influence of various sorts today are basically these dumb kids?


Anyway, hope the bastards enjoy jail!

Will dig at their consciousness much harder as they grow older and have children of their own. These people just lack the feelings that most people grow up with. Weither on a dare, or because they are just mean. The end result is the same.

Originally posted by Nygdan
I can understand crimes of passion, I don't condone it, but at least I can see that a person that commits a crime of passion and the like doesn't have an abnormal personality or a criminal mentality.

My girlfriend and I were chatting about this one, and this is something that I had mentioned. If an individual commits murder in an attempt to provide restitution from a previous wrongdoing, then we can at least understand his or her state of mind. If someone wrongs us, we retaliate. It is not condoned, but we can understand where he or she comes from. But when we attack a complete stranger who has done nothing to us, and beat him in the manner that this poor guy was, I only hope that their cell mate has a taste for their breed. I do not advocate the death penalty, but I hope these guys meet a few "friends" on the inside.

As the topic states, this was a "Sport Killing". The sheer thought of that is disturbing.

I DO blame society for this. Not in the sense it is usually done: "Oh, these poor children didn't know any better!". That is a load... these jerks knew exactly what they were doing.

I blame society in the sense that the direction society is and has been moving, at least in the US, produces these kinds of monsters.

In the US (I can't speak for anywhere else), violence is glorified and worshipped.

We can see this in many places. Normal, prime-time broadcast television has no problem showing slow-motion gunshot exit wounds, but the slightest hint of sexual activity (for instance) is quickly censored.

There was a huge uproar a few years ago over the momentary exposure of a breast at the super bowl. But not a word about the symbolic rape of the woman involved by the guy involved. Not a word.

Another factor is the shift in society towards de-valuing anything that isn't "mine". This extends to our fellow humans.

It used to be, for example, that when camping, a site could be left all day, with stuff sitting on the table. People would leave it alone, because the site was taken. Now, that is asking to be robbed.

The attitude used to be: "This is not mine, I had better take extra good care of it."

Now it is: "This is not mine, I don't give a damn what happens to it."

Our society now condones torture.
Our society condones the murder of hundreds of thousands of people and doesn't really care because they are a different color and religion.

When addressing for example a threat against the US, no attention is paid to the possibly very real grievances our enemies may have, based on decades of US policy. All that our culture values is 'kicking ass and taking names'.

And once our own citizens have been destroyed in this endeavor, we as a society no longer value them, and they end up being beat to death by the next generation of even worse monsters growing up.

All of these examples, and more, indicate a culture in decline. All that is valued is violence and keeping what is "ours". And what we can get from something, be it 'stuff' or our fellow humans.

And the portion of the culture that sees this decline, and opposes it, and actively works to value our fellow humans and strive for a different approach to problems than non-thinking violence is labeled 'traitors', or 'hippies' or 'peacenicks', and is monitored and harrassed by the dominant members of the culture.

US culture worships violence. And we are seeing the price of that worship.

2 Charged With Burning Woman to Death

By KIM CURTIS, The Associated Press
Feb 15, 2007 10:47 PM (5 days ago)
Current rank: # 3,375 of 14,749 articles

SAN FRANCISCO - Two women are accused of soaking a homeless, drug-addicted prostitute with gasoline and burning her to death after she reported that one of them had robbed her.


Leslie "Jill" May, 49, was abducted from the street and killed at Candlestick Park the day she told the police that Mia Sagote, 30, robbed and beat her over a debt May's boyfriend owed, authorities said.

Sagote and Leslie Siliga, 29, have pleaded not guilty to charges of murder and kidnapping.

Prosecutor George Butterworth said the crime showed "exceptional depravity."

On Jan. 11, Sagote allegedly slammed May into a wall, threw her down and punched her because she had not collected a $150 debt from May's boyfriend, police said. Witnesses said they saw Sagote drag May behind a trash container later that day, strip her clothes off and take her cash.

May reported the crime the next day. After Sagote found out, she and Siliga forced May into a car. The two women stopped to buy gasoline, then drove to the parking lot of the stadium where the San Francisco 49ers play and set her ablaze, police said

Burned

If people want to kill somebody, then how come they don't kill somebody who actually deserves it? Like gang bangers. We should have an open season on known gang bangers. Anyone with two arrests for gang activities should be fair game for "community action". Their pictures and known hangouts should be put on a poster to be published in the neighborhood they live in so everybody knows the game is on. We should start with MS13, then move on to the Bloods and Crips and other lesser known thugs.

Homeless people are innocent. Don't kill them.

I'm somewhere between OMS and chissler on this one. While I ultimately hold the individuals entirely responsible, there is more to it than them being "evil people". OMS is right in that our society worships violence. And makes violent killers out to be heroes.

I also agree with Raso in that these idiots don't see homeless people as "real people". To these kids, they're a novelty. Or perhaps the kids see samething in homeless people that they fear. Failure. Or weakness. From the kids' perspective, you understand.

And Royal, I also agree that as these kids grow up, their guilt over their actions will probably give them their just desserts.

So, I basically agree with what y'all have said. These germs belong in prison where they can see what it's like not to have the "upper hand" for a change. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who would do this is ruined, damaged goods.

I can not seem to go ten posts without contradicting myself on issues. I tend to believe that we are a victim of our own environment, abuse begets abuse, etc., which are all excuses for our own behaviours. But on this one, I hold the culprits themselves responsible.

OMS is completely right. Society is a major player in this game. I am not prepared to dispute this fact. But the fact of the matter is, these young people decided what to do, when to do it, how to do it, and who to do it to. Society did not select this man to be murdered so brutally, these young people did. Society may of had a part in the process of manipulating their thought process, but ultimately, these kids made up their own mind.

This can be frustrating. Alcoholics, drug abusers, etc., I feel are merely a spectator in their own demise. Their problems may stem from a genetic disposition that was passed onto them through their parents. Completely out of their control. But here, on this specific case, I just can not buy it. Society, the media, parents, etc., are all creating an environment that some of us do not want to be a part of. But we all have a choice to whether we buy into it or not.

You don't see you or I out bashing the skulls of homeless people, do you? Why? Because we made the choice, just as these young people made the choice.

The buck stops here on this one.

[edit on 21-2-2007 by chissler]

I don't know how old you are chissler, but when it comes to things like this, I often find myself thinking that this type of thing just didn't happen when I was a kid. Maybe we just didn't hear about it?

But I also find myself saying things like, "Kids these days" and shaking my head... :shk:

But is it just kids these days? Don't kids literally get away with murder these days?

It's a complex problem I think that certainly can't be blamed wholly on the environment, but I can't help but think that SOMETHING is contributing to it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
I don't know how old you are chissler, but when it comes to things like this, I often find myself thinking that this type of thing just didn't happen when I was a kid. Maybe we just didn't hear about it?

This is another one of them "interesting" concepts. As for my age, we'll go with early to mid twenties. But I really do not think that kids have changed. Was I around in the 50's, 60's, or 70's to compare? No. But I really do not think kids have changed at all. Kids misbehave today just as they have in the past. What has changed? Society has changed, the media has changed, and the parents have changed because of society and the media.

In the 50's, I don't think parents were inundated with everything that kids were doing all over the world. If you lived in a small rural area, you probably did not have direct access to what kids were doing all over the country, in Canada, and overseas. So what your child was doing was dealt with on it's own merit. Today, kids are compared to all other's all over the world. We punish them for the behaviour of others.

Teenagers have committed crimes, they have disrespected elders, and they have been a strain on the system. Was it procedure years ago for individuals to reach adulthood before they became criminals? I don't think so. I think that the media gives the exposure to these crimes on a level that was never known before.

Kids used to bring frogs to school. This was a deviance on their behalf and it was frowned upon. Today, they bring guns to school. Is it that kids have really changed? Or is it that society has really changed?

As I say that, I do not take any of the accountability off of these individuals, but it needs to be understood that they are no different then kids of twenty and thirty years ago.

Kids have always had the desire to "act out". We have just given them ample opportunity to "up the ante" on their level of acting out.

Society has changed thanks to the way media portrays it.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
But is it just kids these days? Don't kids literally get away with murder these days?

I think that is a fairly common misconception. Kids do see leniency under the law. This is where I am currently working. With kids who are in conflict with the law. We show them leniency and we try to limit as much formal processing as possible. Extra judicial measures and sanctions are always our first option when possible. Why is this? Who benefits from locking children up at such a young age, for a behaviour that they may not of understood? Children under 12 years of age can not be arrested for any offense under Canadian law. A lot of leniency is offered.

Now we are not talking about fifteen and sixteen year old children committing actual murder or sexual assaults. Under Canadian law, they are indictable offenses that would see them tried as an adult. If it is not an indictable offense, we do our best to keep them from having a criminal record.

I think, "getting away with murder" is a bit of an exaggeration. But it is a fair assessment on one level because we do give them plenty of second chances time and time again.

Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
It's a complex problem I think that certainly can't be blamed wholly on the environment, but I can't help but think that SOMETHING is contributing to it.

Something is contributing to it. The way the media offers exposure to these heinous crimes on a daily basis. It is filling the minds of these impressionable youth. Kids in every decade have been depressed, pick on, beat up, etc., and nothing has changed on that level. What has changed is television, radio, and the media exploiting these minds that are like a sponge.

So yes, they are playing a part in this process. As I've said, I do not deny this. I don't think it is enough to alleviate any of the accountability off of these young people, but it is enough to understand that kids today are no different from those who came before them. It is everything else around us that has changed, which is directly influencing us.

Kids are still innocent at heart, as they always have been, and always will be.

After rereading my post, it does seem that I am pointing the finger at everyone else but the children. As that may be what I am doing, I am not passing the blame. These guys brutally murdered a man for no reason whatsoever. No matter what society has done, they made this decision. What my post is in reference to is that children have "changed" over the years and transformed into this being that we have not come to understand.

Basically, I disagree with it.

[edit on 21-2-2007 by chissler]

Thank you guys for your opinions, I tend to agree with them. (what more is there to say, killing is bad).

The problem I see is a sense of entitlement, combined with a follow the leader attitude that ends violently, and with no remorse. When you look at some of the attackers, they have everything they want, or at least can buy. They tend to not understand that there is anything more to this world than themselves. And i don't mean that in the Vedic tradition of the one. I mean that they acknowledge that there are others in the world, they just don't care.

As for these killings, I honestly don't think they care. I don't think they'll care for a long time. I'm sure they're sorry they got caught, but I don't think they realize that what they did was wrong. Maybe, with time, they will understand, but not in the near future.

This is the real problem. This is how society will destroy itself. Just through the simple idea of not caring for your fellow man. We knew this was happening. People ignore the homeless, and would often rather spit on them than offer an umbrella in the rain. As a matter of fact, you don't even have to be homeless for this treatment, just unknown.

Originally posted by chissler

This is another one of them "interesting" concepts. As for my age, we'll go with early to mid twenties. But I really do not think that kids have changed. Was I around in the 50's, 60's, or 70's to compare? No. But I really do not think kids have changed at all. Kids misbehave today just as they have in the past. What has changed? Society has changed, the media has changed, and the parents have changed because of society and the media.


[edit on 21-2-2007 by chissler]

I both agree and disagree with this. Look, I am am 29 years old and I can tell you, I certainly didn't act like kids do today... not ever. Of course, I never really was a kid to be honest. I was raised around people that were three and four times my age... I was 15 socializing with 60 years olds. So that may be a factor as well. I don't know.

Do I think the youth has changed? Certainly. However, the reasons for that change is directly related to how they are being raised. People don't believe in spanking their children anymore. Hell, if I would have thrown temper tantrums and such that I see many kids nowadays throw, my ass would have been beet red all of the time. That's a fact!!

I never really had the urge to go out and commit violence towards others. Today's youth seem to idolize the idea of going out and hitting somebody upside the head with a full coke bottle and such. Look at the rash of "fight clubs" that have been developed. I tell you what you do, go to youtube.com and type in girls fighting in the search bar and watch some of the videos. Yes, that's right, girls. It's brutal.. I think that says a lot about not only what "parents" are raising nowadays, but also the general mentality of people.

I have to disagree with the notion that, the lack of spanking our youth endure today, is directly contributing to the amount of violence and crime they find themselves in. I am not that naive to believe that a slap on the ass is going to do anything to modify any sort or negative behaviour on a long term basis.

Spanking is a short-term solution to a probable long-term issue.

It is imperative to take a cognitive approach, and understand the thought process that is involved with a behaviour and a child. Spanking is going to deal with the symptoms to a much deeper issue.

I can in no way condone what these kid did, hardly understand it, but I try to view it in socio-cultural light. What mechanisms come into play, when such things happen?

I tend to agree with OMS in the analyze.

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic

In the US (I can't speak for anywhere else), violence is glorified and worshipped.

The US was build on a genocide, killing the Indians off the land to clear the way for settlers. That's the way of coloniazation. Always been so. A paradigm that doesn't change overnight -- or in a few generation. It also carries in it the concept of those worthy and those not. So these kids just took it to the limit, cleaning up their space like their grand-grand-grandparent did. Glorification of killing was needed to build America. This in no way is the intended nature of man, so bigotry had to be part.

In my own opinion, it was when this glorification was commercialized and idolized it went wrong. In other words Hollywood, if any, is to blame. And television, as an outlet, not to forget.

But Hollywood has just given what people want, and from its global success, it seems not only Americans want violence for entertainment. I do think though that the history of US plays a part in the present day mentality. John Brown will always have a need to go to war. No more Indians he has to go other places.

So the bigotry turns into hypocricy, which very precisely is pointed out in this snippet by OMS.

There was a huge uproar a few years ago over the momentary exposure of a breast at the super bowl. But not a word about the symbolic rape of the woman involved by the guy involved. Not a word.

The huge irony of this is that the so-called adult movie industry have passed the traditional Hollywood industry in turnover. Which gives an idea of the tremendous moral divides the American society holds, definitely a contributing factor to the atrocity here discussed.

Let us not just forget the social divide, the poor is getting poorer and the rich is getting richer.

It's easy to blame it on Hollywood, some might say too easy. Just remember this world as it appears and happens, is made up of the actions of every single individual (some more than others, of course), it's a huge interactive game where every word spoken counts, as every picture displayed does.

US culture worships violence. And we are seeing the price of that worship.

Yes, that's why it happened.

And as for the times... yes, things have changed. But who cares?

Originally posted by chissler
Spanking is a short-term solution to a probable long-term issue.

Well, "timeouts" and psychobabble bull# certainly isn't the answer. It's the problem.

[edit on 22-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]

Originally posted by chissler
I have to disagree with the notion that, the lack of spanking our youth endure today, is directly contributing to the amount of violence and crime they find themselves in. I am not that naive to believe that a slap on the ass is going to do anything to modify any sort or negative behaviour on a long term basis.

Spanking is a short-term solution to a probable long-term issue.

It is imperative to take a cognitive approach, and understand the thought process that is involved with a behaviour and a child. Spanking is going to deal with the symptoms to a much deeper issue.

My dad spanked me.......once. I learned from it and moved on. It is meant to be a short term solution because those who the punishment is being administered to are expected to learn from it and grow up.

Originally posted by groingrinder
It is meant to be a short term solution because those who the punishment is being administered to are expected to learn from it and grow up.

Exactly... I don't know what to say to people who don't believe in spanking a child.. I guess the only thing I can say, I disagree.