Reply, but don't use the Bible. Eh??

Sounds good....I was just looking for a logical and reasonable response....when you couldn't provide one you switched positions....then switched back and are now responding to me by saying you aren't going to respond.

Next time think before you post a critical "attack"....

There are so many books.and so little time so it is said.

Great Books of the Western World...written by some of the greatest minds of man...and their Civilizations fell. Rome did not fall to the Bible, it fell through immorality.

The question is what material is suitable for providing a well balanced education so as to develop a nurturing socity.

Our own US constitution has been taking a beating from its original form and is constantly under assault. What forces are out there, that cause our rights to be continually under attack? Is it religion? Is it the Bible? I should say not.

Of all the texts of time..The Bible is the most widely distributed and accepted. It has the potential for the greatest good, and in the wrong hands, has the potential for great evil being done by those who use it to be cruel and excessively arrogant in the name of God.

The Bible, like other texts, is a book of storys. Whether accurate or not, they were recorded as a testimony that something happened with a particular output. Lessons in the fact that some of the Great leaders of time such as Moses, had actually murdered people, but were given a path of helping the many. Abraham...the story of the Jews..and even Noah. Of things that sound just too fantastic..but were witnessed and written. Either way its a testament of hope.

Even if Noah isnt true historically...the lesson of the story to me..is that we are all brothers and sisters from a handful of people. That somehow we divided and became hostile unto each other. Maybe its our nature. I do not know.

We are mankind. Words allow us to communicate and to solve. Books are a record of our words, our imaginations, and our ways. Once written, they become history, whether accurate or not. Words are the way we can help or hurt each other. It is my hope that healing books and words become more dominant in this world of bloodshed. We are in need of healing regardless.

Good people know what Good is. Christ did not come for them. He came for the less Righteous. His way is a hope for many, even without the Bible.

Christ said that all you had to do was to Love one another, and everything written by the Prophets in the Old testament was fullfilled!!..Pretty simple conclusion I would say.

The Bible is not only a guide...but a testemony of the passage of Time and a Testimony of Faith and even mystery to mankind..whether you are touched by God or not.

But for any of you who read this...I can tell you first hand this Truth:

Look and you shall see...seek and you shall find. Knock and the door will be opened unto you.

If your casual about it, you may not see...you have to want to.

Or...Just merely be good to all of your fellow man. Bible or No Bible.

After all..isnt that what were all shooting for, God, Christ, man and government?

Life Liberty and the persuit of Happiness? Is that a worthwhile achievable goal?

Lets try and resolve our differences and get to the same goal..

Let their be Peace

[edit on 22-2-2007 by HIFIGUY]

You have voted HIFIGUY for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month.

I couldn't agree more with your sentiments HIFIGUY.

Yes, I'm a Christian and I'd like to convert the other people in the world as well, but I know that that just isn't possible because of human nature. I know Christ gave us the commission to 'preach the good news in all the world' but he didn't say 'force it down their throats' as a lot of Christians do. If someone asks questions though I'll answer them from the viewpoint of being a Christian.

In learning about the reasons why someone believes in a particular set of values (or God) then it just makes sense to me to quote from the teachings of that God. As I said before, it seems silly to me that people ask questions about why Christians believe certain things (like why did Christ have to die?) and things like that but don't allow you to use scripture to do so.

ATS itself has a policy of you needing to back up posts with sources. The Bible is my source for why I believe certain things because unless you're a Christian me telling you that 'the Holy Spirit revealed it to me' won't mean anything.

i don't see the problem in asking about the need for a messianic figure as a general philosophical one
nor do i see the problem in having a discussion on the nature of a hypothetical omnipotent being as requiring a back up text

am i missing something here?

and
just a general question here
how many of the people that have responded here have read the bible in its entirety?

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
am i missing something here?

Yep. When I discuss God, I'm talking about the God described in the Bible, not some god of my own design. If someone asks for evidence for God, I can provide that without using scripture to back it because the fingerprints of God are all over His creation that, so long as we have not taken to believing He doesn't exist in our hearts instead of our heads, we can see.

On the other hand, if you want to talk about the divinity of Jesus Christ, scripture is the authority on that matter. To say "Prove Jesus is divine without referring to scripture" would be like saying "Prove the radius of this circle is 3 inches without using math".

Originally posted by junglejake

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
am i missing something here?

Yep. When I discuss God, I'm talking about the God described in the Bible, not some god of my own design. If someone asks for evidence for God, I can provide that without using scripture to back it because the fingerprints of God are all over His creation that, so long as we have not taken to believing He doesn't exist in our hearts instead of our heads, we can see.

i understand where you're coming, but you can still have a general philsophical discussion about any deity without using a religious text
especially when said god is obviously omni to the 3rd

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
i understand where you're coming, but you can still have a general philsophical discussion about any deity without using a religious text
especially when said god is obviously omni to the 3rd

God is an unseen force...like Light. All around you; Life and nature thrives.

If you look for him, like one would look for Gold or opportunity, he is there.
Scriputure gives you a thread to hold on a long path. The path to God is not the one of the rope that drags you along, its the road less traveled.

Like air..its all around you..you breath, yet you only have witness by the wavering of the trees, movement of the cloudes, and ripples on the water.


Like your Body. Your body knows it needs copper and other nurtrients to survive..yet you as a man would be hard pressed to name many of the nutrients of the periodic chart. An auto pilot of sorts.

Scripture is a testimony of experiences, whether you believe them or not.
Like the constitution, whether you follow it or not, the premise was to form a more perfect Government. Arent all men searching for life, liberty and the persuit of happiness? Some of us search for all. I am on that path.

When the Earth has no more Starvation, and no more homeless. No more hate and no more war. No more disease and greed, then speak to me about no need for scripture or testimony from our Lord and Father. Because, as Christ said...if we all loved each other, the all of the words of the Prophets had been fullfilled.

But for the time being we have Governments with agendas of their own, Corporations and drug companys who will do anything to turn a better number, and people that will sell their fellow man for a dollar, and even injure them to surpress a greater good.

Scripture is there for those that wish to undertake the path. Like a Blog, a testimony of the greatest force in the Universe and a hope of true Love and Happiness.. Is that so wrong?

For those that wish not to read scripture...well..anyone can do nothing, now cant they.

Christ is quoted to have said that we cannot Censure...

I am of the belief that the truth and love for all is the only outcome. If mankind does not honor it, eventually we will perish under our own burden of our selfish ways. Ecologically,Economically,Socially. and Evolutionary.

Does man understand extinction due to Ignorance? I would hope so...

Brighter Days will come

Peace


[edit on 24-2-2007 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 24-2-2007 by HIFIGUY]

[edit on 24-2-2007 by HIFIGUY]

Originally posted by jimboman

How can you talk about faith without giving the reason's why you believe?

Good question.

I believe some members just don't get the same meanings from the bible as others do, or that some members have seen to many times how people have quoted certain scriptures or deduced different meanings than that which the members would see.

I think there may be more belevolent reasons why some members do not want to have scripture quoted to them.

1) They suspect that the member quoting the bible may only quote the sections that support the individual's agenda.

2) They do not interpret the same meaning from the texts, so perhaps they just want the person to say what it means to them in their own words and modern tongue as oppose to old words, so they have a more modern interpretation to use as a basis for comparison.

3) They look at history and before deciding to truly understand what the bible is saying they have already concluded that it has not helped given the fact that there has been so much conflict between humanity over the past few thousand years since the bible has been around.

These are some reasons that i can think of which may deter some souls from wanting to read or hear more bible passages from other members.

Don't be discouraged though.

I say just try your best to say what is right in your own words, logically and using empathy for their position and their perspective.

Originally posted by kinglizard
Why should someone else's opinion be factored into my religious beliefs?

I like this question, A LOT!!!!

It is taken slightly out of context, and i believe kinglizard is not really asking the question, so much as acknowledging that such a question is justified.

I'd like to supply an answer that works for me .....

Question:
Why should someone else's opinion be factored into my religious beliefs?

My Best Answer:
The only reason someone else's opinion should factor in is because one chooses to live their life throught the eyes of their peers, rather than having a higher reverence for their Truth, their God.

In other words, i believe:

The only justifiable reason for adopting someone else's opinion as an aspect of your own opinion would be that you value their perspective and live your life within the confines of their expectations rather than holding "God's" pespective with greater reverence than the opinions of others.

Does this make sense to anyone else, or have i lost some?


Either we are trying to adhere to God's expectations, or the expectations of the opinions of our peers????

Thanks,
john

Originally posted by Esoteric Teacher
Either we are trying to adhere to God's expectations, or the expectations of the opinions of our peers????

Thanks,
john

From the Ages of Ages is the Eternal Thought, and the Thought is the Word, and the Word is the Act, and these Three are one in the Eternal Law, and the Law is with God and the Law proceeds from God. All things are created by Law and without it is not anything created that existeth. In the Word is Life and Substance, the Fire and the Light. The Love and the Wisdom, are One for the Salvation of all. And the Light shineth in darkness and the darkness concealeth it not. The Word is the one Life-giving Fire, which shining into the world becometh the fire and light of every soul that entereth into the world. I am in the world, and the world is in Me, and the world knoweth it not. I come to my own House, and my friends receive Me not. But as many as receive and obey, to them is given the power to become the Sons and Daughters of God, even to them who believe in the Holy Name, who are born--not of the will of the blood and flesh, but of God. And the Word is incarnate and dwelleth among us, whose Glory we beheld, full of Grace. Behold the Goodness, and the Truth and the Beauty of God!

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and Love one another. Honor his laws and enjoy the Gift of life. Is that adopting someone elses expectation?

I have found..there is a point when you start approaching faith where the Road narrows. Where you begin to doubt yourself in certain areas and question everything.

My suggestion is this. Let Go!!..Have Faith in God. There comes a point where you let the Logic go, and realize that you have no control but that the Lord has everything in his hands. Order In Chaos...

Worry not what your going to say..and just look into your heart and the words and the way will be made known to you.

Peace

[edit on 25-2-2007 by HIFIGUY]

If you are a christian and believe that what the Bible says is true, then you quote the Bible because it has the answers for questions. A christian definitely has personal experiences with God, that aren't in the Bible, but without the Bible and reafding it using it, people make God into who they want Him to be instead of reading the Bible and finding out who He really is.

Perhaps it is MORE like:

God reveals God to each soul on a one - on - one basis...according to the best method to reach each one...God knows.

i really don't believe God requires being called anything or recognized according to pre-written guidelines.

Originally posted by queenannie38
God reveals God to each soul on a one - on - one basis...according to the best method to reach each one...

Oh, I do like that. I have read the Christian Bible many times, but the concepts there didn't connect for me. I kept looking though and finally GOD was revealed to me through an entirely different medium.

It doesn't matter to me that I don't follow the Christian Bible and I don't fit in with Christians - I have found spiritual peace anyway and that is what mattered to me.

Back on topic now -
I think one of the things we should do is to specifiy the question here. It is certainly easy enough to discuss spirituality philosophically without quoting the Christian Bible. However, I don't see why it would be necessary to discuss the Christian God without using the Christian Bible.

Our OP just gave us a basic direction, but I think the actual question debated will make a difference on what sources are used to make one's point.

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
just a general question here
how many of the people that have responded here have read the bible in its entirety?

i have.

however i have read many many books in their entirety. some several times.



i have believed in God without and with the bible. either way God is God to me. truth is everywhere - it just hides under 'clothing' just like our own naked butts also do.

I REALLY like kinglizard's statement, too.
ET - i am on the same page as you exactly
i am in truth compliance with what you've asserted as your own present truth!

From Edgar Cayce reading 262-78:

8. As may be seen by the reference to those here, to those that are students, to "What Is My Ideal?" Here we find it expressly given that it, the ideal, must have its inception in, from and with that which is an unseen force, or in that we may worship as a God.

9. Mind, then, may function without a form or body. Hence we will give, at this particular portion of this, that as an outline of those conditions, experiences or manifestations that may be had by the mind irrespective of the body:

10. In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. How? [color=#000000]The MIND of God MOVED, and matter, form, came into being.

11. Mind, then, in God, the Father, is the builder. How much more, then, would or should Mind be the builder in the experience of those that have put on Christ or God, in Him, in His coming into the earth? For as He has given, [color=#00000]"Let that mind be in you which was in the Christ, who thought it not robbery to make Himself equal with God," but living in materiality in the earth, in matter, as a body; but with the Mind, with the thought, with the manifestations of a Creative Force all together.

Originally posted by queenannie38

Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
just a general question here
how many of the people that have responded here have read the bible in its entirety?

i have.

however i have read many many books in their entirety. some several times.

i have believed in God without and with the bible. either way God is God to me. truth is everywhere - it just hides under 'clothing' just like our own naked butts also do.

Jesus says there are those that read the Scripture seeking eternal life.
The Book is dead if you are looking for a step by step method.

Love the Father, and Love one another.

Should you love your Fellow man as yourself, you honor the son and honor the father. A Catchall of sorts.

The Bible becomes a debate without good actions on anyside. Help the poor. Befriend thy enemy, do good for all, help when you can. Mold a society of Nuture and not one of Mayhem.

Madness is a man of conviction. I have read what he says, and he isnt promoting evil lol. Go forth and do as you say...if you can do it without scripture, then so be it.

For I have found a scripture that says those without guidance are covered under Natural Law.

Annie, Madness, and all the other, if we are in agreement in Goodness, then celebrate. The father will show himself as will the son should they decide. An Atheist and non believer can love and do good.

I am not going to stop goodness for ones fellow man because of the belief one has in their mind. Good acts are good acts.

Remember the Story of Paul.

Peace

[edit on 27-2-2007 by HIFIGUY]