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Venezuela To Acquire Nine New Submarines

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posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by shots
By the time they take delivery Chavez may be out of office


My word Shots, is that an admission that Chavez/Venezuela is democratic then?
That's a first from you! hehe...




posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 09:45 AM
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Originally posted by Souljah
Or do you think they are going to storm Florida with nine diesel-electric subs with 1,750 metric tons each?


You got him there, Souljah.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 10:08 AM
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Originally posted by SteveR

Originally posted by Souljah
Or do you think they are going to storm Florida with nine diesel-electric subs with 1,750 metric tons each?


You got him there, Souljah.


Ah, the anti-U.S. appeasers are out in force on this thread. You both ignored my comment about being able to run drugs to the U.S. with these subs. Also, if they can slip in and deliver drugs, they can also deliver terrorists and WMD's. Major
's



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 10:10 AM
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Originally posted by stumason

Originally posted by shots
By the time they take delivery Chavez may be out of office


My word Shots, is that an admission that Chavez/Venezuela is democratic then?
That's a first from you! hehe...


Guess this guy hasn't been paying attention.

chavez is taking all the steps he needs to make sure he will be in office for life. Major
's on this one, too.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 10:23 AM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
Ah, the anti-U.S. appeasers are out in force on this thread. You both ignored my comment about being able to run drugs to the U.S. with these subs. Also, if they can slip in and deliver drugs, they can also deliver terrorists and WMD's. Major
's

Don't worry Mighty Centurion,

I don't think Chavez is allowed to conduct any drug running operations to the US - especially not with subs! I mean to spend billions on 9 subs and then send them to enemy territorial waters, where sonars and patrol boats roam around is kind of, well DUMB! And to top it all, CIA is the major importer of Drugs to Your country. I don't think they allow anybody else to have that piece of their Drug-Pie.

[edit on 20/2/07 by Souljah]



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 10:37 AM
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OK. Your (expert) doubts on all this are a major comfort to me. I shall no longer worry about a thing.


[edit on 2/20/2007 by centurion1211]



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 12:00 PM
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U.S. down by starting "a thousand little crisis" all over the world in the hopes that America won't be able to deal with all of them at once?


I must say, if our enemies start a thousand little crisis around the globe, we will meet that challenge, because the will of the American people and our courage will never back down. If we have to we will build a military power so large the entire planet itself could not challenege it! All in the name of Freedom and Democracy mind you...



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 12:07 PM
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The U.S. population does not have the monopoly on will and courage.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 12:16 PM
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Originally posted by stumason

My word Shots, is that an admission that Chavez/Venezuela is democratic then? :


I assume you meant a democracy?

just because a country has or holds elections does not make them a democrat. I also know that Chavez leans towards communism, so the answer is no!



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by shots
I assume you meant a democracy?


Yes......



Originally posted by shots
just because a country has or holds elections does not make them a democrat. I also know that Chavez leans towards communism, so the answer is no!


The elections were declared free and fair by any and all (barring the USA) so, yes, they are democratic. I wouldn't tread down the slippery slope of quality of elections, as examples in Western Countries can be found also....

Besides, my initial remark was tongue in cheek and was supposed to be a joke... Some people get so wound up...



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 12:29 PM
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I must say, if our enemies start a thousand little crisis around the globe, we will meet that challenge, because the will of the American people and our courage will never back down.


What about the american people (including centurion, jsobecky, RRConservatives, XPhilesPhan and all those neo-cons) understand that the ``enemies`` of america hates the present and past US government, not the people? The US government is not the result of democracy, but the result of a government paid by corporations, not appointed by the people.

Hell the majority of the american people themselves HATE the Bush administration, the world hate the Bush administration. If you could let talk all the world people, not the leaders, you would see that the majority of the world like the american people but hate their government and those who supports it.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 01:37 PM
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Sure, the rest of the world loves us alright.


Sorry, but when I look around I see mostly resentment caused by "America-envy", which is something along the lines of "penis-envy". You know deep down inside that you'll never be what we are, or have what we have, or be able to do what we can do - and you can't stand it.

We could all become isolationist, build defenses against anything you have out in barbarian-land, and you'd still be mad and envious. BTW, it's a fact that pretty much no one here is envious of any of your countries for any reason, and I'm sure that sticks in your craw, too.

Plus, the rest of the world has been bitching about America way before there was a GWB in the White House, so don't try to feed us that crap about except for Bush, you'd all love us.


[edit on 2/20/2007 by centurion1211]



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 01:41 PM
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Venezuela says it is beefing up its military capabilities -- including plans to develop an enlarged submarine fleet -- in preparation for what it called any "asymmetrical conflict" with the U.S.

Wow, thats a step up. Usually asymetric warefare is liek what we have in iraq, small arms, improvised explosives, used against a mainline army.

I guess is makes sense though, to figure that older submarines could be used in asymmetric warfare.



semperfortis
Why hello, Mr. Virginia Class American Attack Sub, What's wrong? What are you doing? HEY HEY

But you'd think that a guy with a landmine and an old AK could'nt stand up to a modern American '21st century warfighter', and yet we're about ready to pull out of iraq.

These things couldn't directly take out a modern US sub, but who is to say that we'll be using our subs to directly attack foreign targets anyway? That'd be in a state of open war. Especially in this modern political climate, we're not likely to have open war with anyone right now. A fleet of less advanced subs might be just the ticket to tip the scales in a guerilla war, disrupt coastal shipping, hit offshore oil refineries, etc.

At first I thought venezuela was effectively rattling the sabre, but if you think about it, you could make great effect with these things.



iori_komei
I particulalry don't see the big deal here, I mean how many other
countries have submarine fleets.

Thats a good point, BUT, consider, how many other countries have expanding submarine fleets who are also engaged in setting up a geo-politicla 'block' against the US, and are openly talking about how to deal with asymmetric warfare against the US?

Whatever the motivations, wouldnt' the US be stupid to sit by?

I particularly do not see Chavez/Venezuela as a threat, China yes,
but not Venezuela.

Consider also that China has been heavily investing in South America while the US has been bogged down in the middle east. Is it unthinkable that the Chinese would have the foresight to secretly work with Chavez, to help support him and to distract the US even further?

is that Chavez is not anti-America, he is anti-Bush/
right-wing.

I don't think that his rhetoric is going to change after the 2008 election. I don't think he'd not be on anyone's rader if Gore had wone the 2000 election. Infact, he himself seems to basically be saying that he is, specifically, anti-US and anti-capitalist, and in favour of forming a political-strategic block agianst the US, regardless of who happens to be president.


jsobecky
It wouldn't surprise me if he envisions himself as the supreme dictator of a "united" South America.

That seems an unrealistic analysis. He seems to be a populist type of socialist. They tend to favour propping up 'fellow' socialist states all around them, and then working in unison with one another, not fighting to conquer each other. He might have a 'wildest dream' of being El Presidente of a "Socialist Internacionale" or the like, but I think it unreasonable to think he wants to be direct dictator of a 'Grande Venezuela" or something.


Souljah
Or do you think they are going to storm Florida with nine diesel-electric subs with 1,750 metric tons each?

I think he' s going to use it for what he says he's going to use it for, to 'protect' his interests in the region through asymmetric warfare. Its quite smart actually. There's no reason why asymetric warfare that works on land can't work at sea. These subs can't be used to take out US subs that are attacking him, but they can be used to sink cruise ships, knock out tankers, destroy oil platforms, etc.
Thats whats meant by their not being 'defensive', they can 'guard' your borders and repel attacks. They can actively carry out attacks to weaken your enemy, and the best defense is a strong offense, so in that sense they are defensive.


shots
By the time they take delivery Chavez may be out of office

It should be obvious that Chavez isn't ever leaving office, short of a coup, or maybe retirement when he's in his 80s.



centurion1211
You both ignored my comment about being able to run drugs to the U.S. with these subs.

Where have we seen that Venezuela is particularly invovled in drug running? I doubt that there's a single government in South AMerica that doesn't have its hands in it, but I don't recall Venezeula being a particular problem.
Heck, the US government probably brings in more SA drugs than Venezuela.

Also, if they can slip in and deliver drugs, they can also deliver terrorists and WMD's

I think that Chavez is smart enough to see, from Iraq and Iran and NK, that WMD aren't helpful. He's a populist, he uses public sentiment to prop up himself, the people of Venezuela don't seem interested in nerve gas or nukes. And chavez, especially being a socialist, can see that MAD didn't help the Soviet Union, he'd have to recognize that it wouldn't help him, Without the ability to actually wipe out the US with a WMD attack, like the USSR had, he'd probably realize that its more of a liability than an asset.
Also, he can see that if the american public is generally favourable of him, then he's got another saftey net. Nuking an american city will undo any good will he's garnered by giving cheap oil to americans.
Also, remember, VEnezuela is completely dependant for its power upon the oil economy, if he nuked the US, at the very least, we'd close every citgo and shut off their ability to sell oil. THEN his regime would collapse.


dyepes
we will meet that challenge, because the will of the American people and our courage will never back down

The american people can't even handle iraq, there's no way they'd be able to deal with a series of conflicts everywhere at once.


vitichilo
If you could let talk all the world people, not the leaders, you would see that the majority of the world like the american people but hate their government and those who supports it.

Did bin ladin hate the government or the people? Because he killed a helluva lot of the people. Is iran attacking the government, or the people, when it sends weapons and training into iraq? Are NK nukes a danger to the government, or the people?



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 01:42 PM
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Hugo is going to find himself all alone here in the near future when Castro kicks the bucket.

I see Cuba going Democratic and free very quickly post Castro.

Cuba will be a great place to build a USAF/USN base to control the central Americas and Hugo will be center stage for a Panama type over throw.

It's a shame Hugo does not spend this money on his population which is very poor.

Just think of all the hospitals and schools that money could build.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 01:43 PM
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As someone who doesn't particularly like either Chavez or the US's current leadership, I am not particularly concerned about these subs. I do find the debate pretty funny though, especially when the rightwingers can't decide whether to brag "haha their puny subs are helpless against our Mighty Forces!" or "OMG with these subs Chavez will export Che Guevara posters to the hearts of our cities, strike now before it's too late!!!"



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 02:15 PM
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And the "Leftwingers" are U2Uing us for an address to send Chavez money to buy more weapons.

Apparently they were also looking for a dictionary to provide more colorful commentary for Chavez to use in degrading the United States..

Interesting comparison..

Semper



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 02:20 PM
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Originally posted by SIRR1
Hugo is going to find himself all alone here in the near future when Castro kicks the bucket.

I see Cuba going Democratic and free very quickly post Castro.

Unless, of course, Chavez's bloc of socialist nations is able to quickly send military troops into cuba to stablize it and use this new fleet of subs to control the situation.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 02:23 PM
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Oh PLEEZZZZZZZZE!!! Like Venezuela is going to go to war with the United States. Spare me.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 02:27 PM
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Originally posted by centurion1211
Sure, the rest of the world loves us alright.


Sorry, but when I look around I see mostly resentment caused by "America-envy", which is something along the lines of "penis-envy". You know deep down inside that you'll never be what we are, or have what we have, or be able to do what we can do - and you can't stand it.

We could all become isolationist, build defenses against anything you have out in barbarian-land, and you'd still be mad and envious. BTW, it's a fact that pretty much no one here is envious of any of your countries for any reason, and I'm sure that sticks in your craw, too.

Plus, the rest of the world has been bitching about America way before there was a GWB in the White House, so don't try to feed us that crap about except for Bush, you'd all love us.


[edit on 2/20/2007 by centurion1211]


Wow, you are ignorant. I am sure glad that I will never be as condescending and arrogant as you are. And, to be quite honest, I would never want to live in your country (yes, I have been there many many times).

But hey, everything outside of the US borders is barbaric and third world. Do you have anything to add besides blatant trolling?

Why is it such a big deal when other countries decide they want to put money into their own military? Americans can't really be paranoid enough to think everyone wants to destroy their society of moral greatness, can they? Do you think that you are the only ones entitled to a military? You guys are being just a little hypocritical.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 02:36 PM
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yeah centurian has conceptual problems but other than that he's ok. He still thinks oil is a renewable resource though.



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