Let them, all of Nato will strike back with furious vengeance.

db330, If russia wanted to put missiles on south american soil I as an american wouldnt like it. However, It would be looked at as a threat to our national security and you would see the USN blockading the cuban island from russian involvement (sound familiar?)...well thats my view on that. Russia couldnt do something like that without causing a conflict and it would be down right impossible for the russians to blockade poland and the Czech republic without crossing international borders. Also whats wrong with the czech republic and poland getting back at mother russia for all its done to them in the past?

hi, using energy as a weapon is becoming more mainstream.

russia has realized that a strategic flaw of it was that it relied on certain countries to transit its oil and natural gas to the big markets of western europe. russia has taken measures to deal with this weakness by building additional pipelines to the north, south, and east. i think churchill once said that the best weapon energy consumers can use is to diversify supply... russia, as an energy producer, is diversying distribution - re-balancing the relationship and tilting strategic power away from the transport nations...

so, i personally won't be suprised if poland and the czech republic are cut-off from russia's energy supplies as retribution, if and when the american abm installations are put in place.

like you explain, the u.s. would have blockaded cuba. russia, in my opinion, will take these steps against poland and the czech republic in this scenario.

====================

p.s. the u.s. and england have made up. greece and turkey have basically made up. india and pakistan are making up. libya is accepted as a friendly nation across europe. germany and japan are established, highly-regarded nations despite their behavior of six decades ago. grudges and revenge in international relations are only used by those preeching hate and war, many times on nationalistic themes, and are not able to produce realistic cooperation between nations in today's world.

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
being a Polish person myself, i might be able to enlighten a few people. This is the first step in modernizing the Polish and Czech armies in teh East, they are the first line of defense if Russia ever tries to form the new USSR.

This phobia of Russia is seriously more entertaining that anything. But I guess it's better for Polish people to unite under something (see my sig), even if it's meaningless. Form the new USSR? I have been hearing this alot lately. Name just one indication that Putin is in any way craving to return communism or invade anyone. Fantasy and reality are two very different things, and no one who has any power in Russia is remotely considering such mind boggling idea.

US/NATO is using Eastern Europe to further their own agenda, and they could not care less about defense of either of those countries. Now thanks to US missile sites, Poland and Czech are officially nuclear targets. Oh- and being the "first line of defense" is never good for your survival if it comes to war. Especially nuclear war. But independence brings with it the freedom to make choices- good and bad.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
and as for Russia attacking Poland and Czech Republic, just empty words.

What words? When did Russia give any indication or threat of offensive action? Officially the missiles are there to "protect from Iran and NK" not Russia. Even the Polish government isn't that desperate for attention (although they are pretty desperate) to claim that Putin plans to invade them. And why does Russia need Poland or anyone else anyway for that matter? To import your potatoes and canned food? To give you energy subsidies? To isolate itself from that menace France? Times have changed.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
IF they attack either country the NATO countries, especially the US will step in and help both. Poland has been helping in Afghanistan and Iraq and the US will look like a bunch of jag-offs if they don't help.

So sad to inform you, but US has been known to walk out on allies before. In the 1991 Gulf War the Kurds starting an uprising against Saddam hoping that US will invade all the way and help them. It stopped half way through and the Kurds got slaughtered. In Afghanistan much of the ground campaign was carried out by North Allience, who carried heavy losses- with US safely bombing from the air or sending small SF contingents. US quit both Somalia and Lebanon, leaving their allies behind.

No nation is that humanitarian to endanger itself, or more importantly risk making the politicians unpopular, in order to save or help someone else. US only helps when it has something to gain, otherwise you have to rely on UN resolutions which seem to pass once every century (cough* Sudan cough*).

The US is using Poland. They are not interested in what the Polish or Czech people think, they are not interested in what is best for these regions- and why should they be? You are just part of the agenda, and seeing how much of the world has views conflicting with that agenda I'd say it is a tough choice. But I do not think Polish or Czech national security is currently such a priority (as it is not in danger) as to make such quick alliences.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
I fear nothing from Putin, he might talk the talk but he certainly doesn't want to walk the walk. It would be too costly for Russia..

Walk what walk? He is not interested in invading you. But he did raise the energy prices (throwing much of Europe into panic), he did improve Russia's economy, and he did publically challenge the US international tactics recently- stating what many of the world leaders are thinking but are afraid to say.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
These changes are also being made because the Polish Air Force will be flying in the skies of Lithuania and Estonia becuase they lack air power. They will remain in teh Polish Air Force though. A few Migs and Sukhois have been sent to Lithuania already, and morea are on their way.

What do ABM missiles and guidance radars have to do with the Air Force. Buying jets and helicopters is one thing, installing technologies to compromise nuclear capabilities of a superpower (or soon-to-be-superpower) is another thing.

Haha, we don't have a phobia, we just don't like their political leaders. Our people are fine with each other, in fact most like each other.

Essentially, if one country builds defenses along another countries borders, the country building the defenses is expecting to start something in the future.

Much like an arms race, you don't build it if you don't expect to use it.

Russia is in turn responding to this, if Mexico were to start planting AAA and SAM sites along it's border with the US, I can guarantee you the US would take that as a threat. This is no different. (Aside from the countries in question).


And what would NATO do if there was a conflict? All they do nowadays is request the UN set sanctions on the country in question.


And that's another thing... sanctions. Didn't the world learn it's lesson with the Treaty of versailles? Sanctions only give a country a reason to beef up it's military. If a country is no longer allowed to trade for what it needs, I guarantee you they will try to take it.

The UN sanctions on North Korea only made North Korea pissed off... and look what they ended up doing, they struck a deal with Russia... the first country not part of the UN willing to help.
Yeah, great going there UN. Sanctions are a horrible mistake, in any scenario.

[edit on 1-3-2007 by johnsky]

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
Haha, we don't have a phobia, we just don't like their political leaders. Our people are fine with each other, in fact most like each other.

Well quarrels about imports and energy exports with Poland and others are one thing, and I understand why Poland would not be particularly supportive of Russia's actions in that respect. But other than the economical aspects, what does Poland, or anyone in Europe for that matter, have against Putin? Russia did not invade anyone, and have not shown any indication of aggressive foreign policy. It is even cautious of openly supporting and pushing for unification with such regions as Belarus and Transdniester.

And so, what is the reason for anti-Russia ABMs and military installations if Russia is not a threat, seeing how there is absolutely no proof that Russia is a threat. US is likely looking ahead several decades, in its attempts to "neutralize" Russia. But by doing this it is only speeding up the possible Cold War. And Poland's sentiments against Russia are being exploited by NATO.


I agree with those who say that US would also respond negatively if Russia or China placed similar military installations in close proximity to US borders. But what about the larger picture. ABM are only a small part of what US is doing there, and much of the world doesn't realize the consequences. War is brewing in Georgia, and revlution is brewing in Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan- due to US involvement there. US is about to ignite a powder keg there, with little regard for consequences. Does Poland or Ukraine really want to be a part of this?

If you look at what is going on all over the world, you'd start to think that the US was purposely trying to ignite a powder-keg all over the world.

Typically I would be the one to start saying something along the lines of "The US is going to be the cause of the next major war"... but now I'm more concerned at how dangerously thin their military is going to be stretched, and the amount of people, both American and other countries who are about to lose their lives becuase of bad strategy.

Nice reply CrazyPolak.Nothing wrong with Russian people.Ive been to clubs in the US that were russian owned.As usual its not the people of Russia since they dont know what freedom is.But when a military or political leaders threatens an ally with nukes ,especially from a country that has them,well we take threats like that seriously.

Anyways the link is down atm.

Originally posted by maloy

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
Haha, we don't have a phobia, we just don't like their political leaders. Our people are fine with each other, in fact most like each other.

Well quarrels about imports and energy exports with Poland and others are one thing, and I understand why Poland would not be particularly supportive of Russia's actions in that respect. But other than the economical aspects, what does Poland, or anyone in Europe for that matter, have against Putin? Russia did not invade anyone, and have not shown any indication of aggressive foreign policy. It is even cautious of openly supporting and pushing for unification with such regions as Belarus and Transdniester.

And so, what is the reason for anti-Russia ABMs and military installations if Russia is not a threat, seeing how there is absolutely no proof that Russia is a threat. US is likely looking ahead several decades, in its attempts to "neutralize" Russia. But by doing this it is only speeding up the possible Cold War. And Poland's sentiments against Russia are being exploited by NATO.


I agree with those who say that US would also respond negatively if Russia or China placed similar military installations in close proximity to US borders. But what about the larger picture. ABM are only a small part of what US is doing there, and much of the world doesn't realize the consequences. War is brewing in Georgia, and revlution is brewing in Azerbaijan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan- due to US involvement there. US is about to ignite a powder keg there, with little regard for consequences. Does Poland or Ukraine really want to be a part of this?

Once again you blame the West and are trying to undermine alliances in the West by trying to create suspicion. An anti-missile system is good for us and our allies to help protect against states like Russia and Iran.Russia is just proving that the West is correct in their assessment.

George Bush is the smartest man on earth.He is the mastermind of every conspiracy on this site.Great man,wish we could keep him and send H.Obama to EU.