Depends of how you see it... why would they fear those countries?

Oh yeah... the US are putting bases for missile defence

Hmm I'd say the US were the one fearing Russia

Anyway... for Once a country is being honest

If they do accept these bases in their homelands, they will officialy become potential Targets for Russian Missiles

Then may Russia pay the ultimate price...we should of marched throw there along time ago....didnt some Generals want to do that back around World War 2

Originally posted by KonigKaos
Then may Russia pay the ultimate price...we should of marched throw there along time ago....didnt some Generals want to do that back around World War 2

If it wasnt for Russia,The U.S might not have won WW2.
Russia played its part,as did the weather in Russia.

For what?

They are just stating the obvious. If a country accepts US military bases then they will become legitimate targets if a war breaks out. Why should that come as a surprise to anyone?

Also why should Russia pay a price? Its not THEM that is building military installations right up against another countries borders. America are the 'aggressors' in this if anyone is, how come you don't see that? Maybe America should 'pay the price'?

Whats the problem with a country getting missile defense. Does that take away Russias ability to politically bully if it comes to it? I'm not trying to point fingers at anyone, because the US can do its share of political bullying I'm sure. But this seems to be a case of Russia being concerened about regional political parity with the implementation of missile defense sites in Poland and the Czech Republic.

KonigKaos, you are talking about Operation Unthinkable which was deemed undoable in the new context of the end of World War 2

The plan called for the reincorporation in the army of a good number of German prisonners of war and the Liberation of Eastern Europe from the USSR

It was made as a contingency since Western Europe was considered vulnerable given the Large number of Soviet forces on the border

The plan was made unnecessary when the US detonated their first Atomic bombs. Governments tough this would be enough to stop the Soviet Union

Who knows ? Maybe we would have remilitarised Germany to Fight the USSR if the US had refused to launch their atomic weapons on Japan

They would...The current Russian ruler is a former old school Russian who believes that they will one day rejoin the USSR.

Missile Defense Systems ... ... AGRESSORS ??? Do you even realize what you are saying ??? This will also protect these countries from other Missiles not just those of Russia ... They are Crucial for these countries ... if a War was to start ... ... Simply put if the U.S. does have a war start and they need bases to put thier troops they don't wanna send them somewhere under protected ... Hmmm I wonder if them setting up ... HUndreds of Acres of camps in Iraw tought them that ... ???? They are under guarded over there and for times their bases were under attack ... It's easy to attack a base of operations if it is not securely set up ...

Originally posted by waynos
For what?

They are just stating the obvious. If a country accepts US military bases then they will become legitimate targets if a war breaks out. Why should that come as a surprise to anyone?

Also why should Russia pay a price? Its not THEM that is building military installations right up against another countries borders. America are the 'aggressors' in this if anyone is, how come you don't see that? Maybe America should 'pay the price'?

The current situation as seen through Russia's eyes goes like this; the U.S. is trying to size Russia up and is sticking its nose in Russia’s backyard. It would be like Russia building a missile defense system in Cuba. Anyone here who thinks the U.S. wouldn’t have a problem with that is either delusional or an idiot.

Secondly, if this system really is meant to stop Iranian missiles (which is purely BS, but I’ll give them the benefit of the doubt) then it wouldn’t be advanced enough to stop any of Russia’s missiles, especially the Topol-M. So what makes the Czechs and Poles think they’ll also be safe from Russian missiles? Not only will they NOT be safe, but they’re forcing the Russians to actually aim missiles AT THEM.

[edit on 2/20/2007 by The Crow]

Both Poland and Czech Republic know what they are getting into, and that it is 100% their choice. They perfectly understand that if they host any US/NATO military installations (whether offensive or otherwise), they will automatically be targeted by Russia as a potential enemy. There is nothing wrong with that and it normal tactics (even for post-Cold War), and this in no way indicated that Russia is planning any offensive action against them. And even if US installations are limited to ABMs, it still partially negates Russia's nuclear capabilities. So how will Russia react? It will build more or better ballistic missiles. It is simple military tactics, and a reaction to US tactics.

And why do Poland and Czech Republic need ABMs, missile/radar installations, and possible military bases? I highly doubt either NK or Iran even remotely consider attacking any of these two nations with missiles. In fact I do not think that untill this, they have been targeted by anyone's ballistic missiles- now they will likely be targeted by Russia's.

Name one way, how this all benefits Poland/Czech Republic? It benefits US. Maybe it benefits some European NATO members. But the end result for Poland and Czech is only a negative one. So in whose interests is US acting in Eastern Europe?


And this whole- protect the US from Iran thing is complete bs. if one would wish to protect US/Europe from nuclear strikes coming from Iran or anywhere in the Middle East, Turkey would be a far better geographical location for ABM placement, plus it has been a NATO member for a long time.

For every action in international politics, there will be a reaction. Somehow US has managed to completely overlook the reaction part for the last 6 years. And this is the part that tends to come back and bite you back once in a while.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
being a Polish person myself, i might be able to enlighten a few people. This is the first step in modernizing the Polish and Czech armies in teh East, they are the first line of defense if Russia ever tries to form the new USSR.

This phobia of Russia is seriously more entertaining that anything. But I guess it's better for Polish people to unite under something (see my sig), even if it's meaningless. Form the new USSR? I have been hearing this alot lately. Name just one indication that Putin is in any way craving to return communism or invade anyone. Fantasy and reality are two very different things, and no one who has any power in Russia is remotely considering such mind boggling idea.

US/NATO is using Eastern Europe to further their own agenda, and they could not care less about defense of either of those countries. Now thanks to US missile sites, Poland and Czech are officially nuclear targets. Oh- and being the "first line of defense" is never good for your survival if it comes to war. Especially nuclear war. But independence brings with it the freedom to make choices- good and bad.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
and as for Russia attacking Poland and Czech Republic, just empty words.

What words? When did Russia give any indication or threat of offensive action? Officially the missiles are there to "protect from Iran and NK" not Russia. Even the Polish government isn't that desperate for attention (although they are pretty desperate) to claim that Putin plans to invade them. And why does Russia need Poland or anyone else anyway for that matter? To import your potatoes and canned food? To give you energy subsidies? To isolate itself from that menace France? Times have changed.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
IF they attack either country the NATO countries, especially the US will step in and help both. Poland has been helping in Afghanistan and Iraq and the US will look like a bunch of jag-offs if they don't help.

So sad to inform you, but US has been known to walk out on allies before. In the 1991 Gulf War the Kurds starting an uprising against Saddam hoping that US will invade all the way and help them. It stopped half way through and the Kurds got slaughtered. In Afghanistan much of the ground campaign was carried out by North Allience, who carried heavy losses- with US safely bombing from the air or sending small SF contingents. US quit both Somalia and Lebanon, leaving their allies behind.

No nation is that humanitarian to endanger itself, or more importantly risk making the politicians unpopular, in order to save or help someone else. US only helps when it has something to gain, otherwise you have to rely on UN resolutions which seem to pass once every century (cough* Sudan cough*).

The US is using Poland. They are not interested in what the Polish or Czech people think, they are not interested in what is best for these regions- and why should they be? You are just part of the agenda, and seeing how much of the world has views conflicting with that agenda I'd say it is a tough choice. But I do not think Polish or Czech national security is currently such a priority (as it is not in danger) as to make such quick alliences.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
I fear nothing from Putin, he might talk the talk but he certainly doesn't want to walk the walk. It would be too costly for Russia..

Walk what walk? He is not interested in invading you. But he did raise the energy prices (throwing much of Europe into panic), he did improve Russia's economy, and he did publically challenge the US international tactics recently- stating what many of the world leaders are thinking but are afraid to say.

Originally posted by CrazyPolak
These changes are also being made because the Polish Air Force will be flying in the skies of Lithuania and Estonia becuase they lack air power. They will remain in teh Polish Air Force though. A few Migs and Sukhois have been sent to Lithuania already, and morea are on their way.

What do ABM missiles and guidance radars have to do with the Air Force. Buying jets and helicopters is one thing, installing technologies to compromise nuclear capabilities of a superpower (or soon-to-be-superpower) is another thing.

Deus Brandon.

Missile Defense Systems ... ... AGRESSORS ??? Do you even realize what you are saying ???

The crow answered this point already but as you were quoting me I thought I'd pipe up.

Think about it for a minute and look at it from the Russian point of view. These are military bases, for the US military no less, and right on the Russian border. This is, defacto, a US advance towards Russian territory from the established German frontier of the last 60 years, albeit one achieved through political reform rather than military action. Never mind that it is a missile defence system, how would you expect America to react if the situation were reversed? Say the Russians suddenly moved in loads of missile defenses right up against the Polish border, what would you think of their motives then? The Crows Cuba analogy is even more apt.

btw, I did actually say that America is the aggressor *if* anyone is, have a look, I really did.

Let's turn the tables around a little bit.

What would the US governments reaction be if Russia was to start talking about putting missle defense sytems in Cuba?

I think a similiar response would be heard from the US.

Russia already responded. Putin stated that Russia will withdraw from most of the post-Cold War nuclear treaties. This will alow Russia to develop new ballistic missiles, and install back their advanced missiles from the Cold War which they had to disassemble under the treaty. Is this what US really wanted?

Originally posted by maloy
Russia already responded. Putin stated that Russia will withdraw from most of the post-Cold War nuclear treaties. This will alow Russia to develop new ballistic missiles, and install back their advanced missiles from the Cold War which they had to disassemble under the treaty. Is this what US really wanted?

I believe the US already pulled out of the treaty after the September 11th attacks on the WTC. Russia did aswell I believe. So the US knew what it was getting intself into, as did the russians.

I really dont see a problem with this if Poland and the Czech republic want this. The US isnt forcing anything on them. Its 100% their choice. It would help out the local economy and army's, plus its free security.

Now if the tables were turned and it was america who collapsed and not the USSR, I could see the USSR doing the exact same thing. And thats if it wouldnt invade first.

So really I find it to be very hypocritical of you US bashers...

I agree that if the people of Poland and Czech Republic wanted the missile and military bases, knowing the consequences, the missiles should be installed. But as was demonstrated by huge protests, Czech population is largely against this, while Poland is split.

What USSR "would have done" bears very little on this issue. I do not support many things USSR has done.

hi, on the lighter side, if nuclear war does break out between the u.s. and russia, poland would be the first to know about it...

just a few of things to add:
- the silos in poland will be dual-use, for offensive missiles, as well as defensive missiles (there was a reuters article about this last week). for show, of course, the defensive missile capability will be highlited.
- on the face of it, a few abm missiles in eastern europe might not seem like a threat... but there are also abm missiles in the pacific (alaska, california, and possibly now japan), u.s./nato troops and bases in an ever-increasing area around russia (incl. central asia, the baltics, and talks of building a caspian sea patrol force), covert/over backing of chechen terrorists, and the fact that the u.s. administration has already invaded countries on false pretenses and, according to many citing the project for a american century et al, wants to control the world.
- central-eastern european nations are very hostile to russia and i personally think that they want russia to be destroyed so that they can join in the spoils of a dead russia and have natural gas for free for always and forever. therefore, they talk smack and wish for a day when moscow would be bombed by nato. from what i've seen on polish, baltic, ukranian, and georgian sites online, terrorists attacks in russia, reports on russia's declining population, and statistics of aids in russia are genuinely celebrated.
- russia obviously has an aswer to this (scalar weaponry & the best missiles in the business). the only question is if another name will be added to the list of those in history who've tried to conquer russia but fail miserably.

========================

semperfoo writes...
I really dont see a problem with this if Poland and the Czech republic want this. The US isnt forcing anything on them. Its 100% their choice. It would help out the local economy and army's, plus its free security.

the thing is, the polish and czech governments are completely for the abm systems, but the general population, although admitedly very pro-u.s., is not that sure and a referendum would be a toss-up. but, it will not come down to voting... the polish and czech presidents have indicated that it will be left to their parliaments, not the people. oh, and if the poles and czechs do force their governments to hold a referendum, the u.s. should hide this bit of news from japan, korea, and anywhere else it is at and considered persona non grata by the population.

and, heck why not, cuba should be able to choose if it wants russian bases. it would help out the local economy and army. plus it's free security. ahem, monroe doctrine. ahem.

[edit on 24-2-2007 by db330]

Originally posted by KonigKaos
Then may Russia pay the ultimate price...we should of marched throw there along time ago....didnt some Generals want to do that back around World War 2

Why should Russia pay the ultimate price? It wasnt OK for USSR to put missiles in Cuba, it wasnt ok for a communist leaning leader in Cyprus (Makarios) to be in power in case the USSR arms Cyprus against Turkey or Israel, initiating the Turkish Invasion, so why the hell is it OK for the US to place missile defences in Russias backyard?

Nobody here would allow their neighbour to have a rifle constantly aimed over their back fence so what gives?

The US is clearly threatened by Russia and doing with Russia what it is with Iran....putting pressure on them so they slip up and they can justify some sort of future action. The US has already virutally surrounded Russia and China and I do not blame them for feeling slightly Paranoid. Put yourselves in their shoes.

Originally posted by Black_Fox
If it wasnt for Russia,The U.S might not have won WW2.

Yes and no. Yes if it wasnt for russia coming to the party in WW2, and taking the eastern front I do not beleive the west would have achieved as much as they did.

And NO, the US didnt win the Second World War, it was the ALLIES that won it. The US did not fight that war single handedly and this statement just shows the arrogance on Americans. No offence.

As an aussie and a patriot, I would feel exactly the same way as russia if Indonesia started arming itself with missiles pointed at us.

Why cant you americans understand that the actions in recent times by the USA is nothing short of that of a rogue nations!!!!

I understand, the Arabs arent much better but that doesnt not mean that the USA should lower itself to their level.

You want to fix the problems of this world with war then there is only one way out of two about -

1> you dont start any war but hardcore negotiating with give and take on both sides to achieve a satisfactory result

OR

2> you go to war balls and all, no media, no reporters, no journalism and you go the whole hog, and let God sort them out.

If you don the inbetween, you get IRAQ......get the picture?