To Freemasons - Information regarding Jacques de Molay

I ask a question to any freemason who's willing to respond, and hopefully a 1st or 2nd degree

I would like to discuss who Jacques de Molay was and whether he was relevant in any way shape or form in this present day within the freemasonry brotherhood. I am not asking for any specific information, but I am requiring an answer from a freemason a simple 'yes' or 'no' would suffice.

If further discussion is possible I would be interested to know more, the life, the work, and fall of this individual.

I would like very detailed information, even if it is not related to freemasonry, but not off the internet - as it can be tainted. Hopefully the work would be a physical book written by a scholar or a freemason himself.

I heard about "The Second Messiah" but I read that it could be mis-leading.

Also any other book that is recommended for reading.

Thx

The Messiah book is written by Masons. They aren't giving away any secrets in the book. It's all common knowledge.

J. DeMolay was the head of the Knights of Templar at the time they were mass arrested in Europe. some got away at least because some of their ships were last seen heading towards the New World.

He's the man in the Shroud of Turin. it's not Jesus in the shroud.

[edit on 19-2-2007 by Jotfish]

Interesting theory Jot. Why do you say he is the man in the Shroud? All be it Carbon Dating seems to correlate with that.

clearly it's an old man in the shroud. Jesus was only 30 or so when he died. Plus drawings of Demolay from the time period look very similar to the shroud. There's no conclusive proof jesus existed in the first place. He's more just a figure of imagination to give mankind inspiration so to say he was the one in the shroud is without merit.

but this isn't my info. it's all from the Messiah authors.

The shroud of Turin is based on Jaques DeMolay?

Interesting info - ok. I will look into the second messiah and have a read then, wasn't sure on its intent thats all.

All I require is common knowledge nothing more. I'm rather fascinated with the history which shaped major changes through out our linear past!

Are there - if any, reliable websites on the subject of the Knights Templar and other such historical data that gives an accurate history of events, what what said, what was done, the chronological order of decisions and dates, even the date of birth and date of passing over of Jaques.

With regards to the Shroud - the image which I initially thought was of the christ figure, involved chemical reaction processes - which had to be part of a reaction from the skin of the person and whatever was on the shroud.

The reaction I believe was a form of Lactic Acid build up, but had to create a reaction with another chemical to leave an imprint on the shroud.

Anyone know what this chemical could be?

Thx

Marty the Shroud has been carbon dated to right of the time period of DeMolay which is why I find Jot's theory interesting.

One thing concerning Jesus, is that every ancient civilization has stories and legends that are all very "Jesus like." As well they all have stories similar to Noah's Ark.

I've read The Second Messiah (Christopher Knight and Robert Lomas). In it they speculate that Jacques de Molay was tortured in the same manner as the crucifixion to mock him and his beliefs. They also put forward that lactic acid mixed with sweat produced the images on shroud, using the same chemical process that produced the Volckringer patterns of Australian plant specimens.

I don't know if they've been debunked but, all in all, a good read.

There were 16 DRGs before Jesus. DRG = Dying Rising God. Typically born at the winter solstice, dead and revived in spring. Many born of a virgin.

Jacques DeMolay was the last Grand Master of the Knights Templar. Confessed to this and that under torture. Recanted his confession when the torture stopped. Got the death penalty for recanting the confession.

"Are there - if any, reliable websites on the subject of the Knights Templar and other such historical data that gives an accurate history of events, what what said, what was done, the chronological order of decisions and dates, even the date of birth and date of passing over of Jaques."

If you read one book on the KTs, you might fool yourself into believing you know things about the KTs. If you read another book, there will be things in the second book that conflict with what you learned in the first book. By the time you have read a dozen books about the KTs, you will know there is an active campaign to muddle the history of the KTs.

No, I'm not a Freemason.

[edit on 20-2-2007 by xenu brings order]

Good point Xenu. Lots of conflicting theories surrounding the KT.

Thanks everyone, your opinions are much appreciated!

Xenu - I know the initial thought of where your title comes from - however I would like that to be verified.. Why does it bring order - seems like a discordian belief of order out of chaos! A similar function of Eris...

A function of instilling beliefs over time - whether true or distorted. Replicated through history.

What I wanted to iterate with regards to the 16 before Jesus, It could be that their 'essence' was from the same source. The essence would teach the culture the nature of the universe. It was probably a 'god' of the stars inhabiting a human body teaching about 'GOD' or (creation) which is above all. If DeMolay claimed to be of the same 'essence' (true teachings??) Then it could very well be that the intention setup by the Knights Templar was to bring the true teachings back into 'balance' for there is a dual nature of human beings.

If the Knights Templar were the beginning of the original masons - then there is a possibility of its genuine start - however there are other 'players' in this whole system who try infiltrate something good to make it corrupt.

This is the conspiratorial aspect of this topic - so this is why I needed to find out whether masons stemmed from the Templars or stemmed elsewhere.

Thx

I can't believe that Xenu brings order, because Xenu is doo-doo. It's just a way to provoke clams.

"If the Knights Templar were the beginning of the original masons..." It's all spelled out in the ritual of the 30th degree. In short: The Templars found evidence that the original Christians practiced Johannite Christianity, vastly different from Pauline Christianity practiced by Catholics then and all Christians now. Johannites performed rituals learned in Egypt when the Jews were involuntary guest workers there.

The Templars learned and performed the rituals too. They still do, as Freemasons.

The 16 earlier DRGs were just variations of the same story.

Xenu,

Ok i understand what you are saying.

Thx

Originally posted by Im a Marty


If the Knights Templar were the beginning of the original masons - then there is a possibility of its genuine start - however there are other 'players' in this whole system who try infiltrate something good to make it corrupt.

This is the conspiratorial aspect of this topic - so this is why I needed to find out whether masons stemmed from the Templars or stemmed elsewhere.

Thx

The Regius Manuscript, which is Freemasonry's oldest known existing document, predates the Templars. Also, the French founded the Templars, while the Masons are of British origin.

The first introduction of Templary into Masonry came in 18th century France. This was an attempt to revive the Order of Knights Templar. The concrete evidence does not support a linear relationship with the original Templars, although I would concede that some circumstantial evidence can be found at Rosslyn.

But if there were ever any original Templars involved in Masonry, they would have joined the organization after it had already been founded by others.

I never heard this theory about DeMolay and the Shroud; sounds interesting. From what I recall from a university class many years ago is that scientists can also date via pollen grains, supposedly more accurate than carbon dating.

While carbon dating puts the Shroud of Turin circa the time of DeMolay, the pollen-grains found date to circa 2000 years ago, and the pollen grains are from plants found (only?) in Palestine.

Hmm...

"the French founded the Templars, while the Masons are of British origin"

The French founded the Templars in 1118. The Freemasons came out of the closet in 1717. Things happened in the intervening 599 years.

The Templars were run out of France, and may have created Freemasonry as a mutual support mechanism for fugitive Templars. Many fugitive Templars went to Scotland. Scotland became part of the English empire in the interval.

From what I understood the Freemasons were descended so to speak from the stone masons of Egypt suggesting a lineage much older than KTs.

Originally posted by xenu brings order
"the French founded the Templars, while the Masons are of British origin"

The French founded the Templars in 1118. The Freemasons came out of the closet in 1717. Things happened in the intervening 599 years.

The Masons did not "come out of the closet" in 1717. In that year, they simply founded the first Grand Lodge. Before that, they were under the jurisdiction of the Masons Company of London, and before that, they operated independently.

There is not a gap in the history of Masonry. Records exist of the earliest known Lodges from before the Templars were founded, showing that the theory that they were founded by Templars is impossible.

Originally posted by Zhenyghi
I never heard this theory about DeMolay and the Shroud; sounds interesting. From what I recall from a university class many years ago is that scientists can also date via pollen grains, supposedly more accurate than carbon dating.

While carbon dating puts the Shroud of Turin circa the time of DeMolay, the pollen-grains found date to circa 2000 years ago, and the pollen grains are from plants found (only?) in Palestine.

Hmm...

Wait a minute, wasn't Jacques DeMolay burned at the stake? How could his image appear so vividly (with the beard and pierced extremities) if he was burned?...

Originally posted by Zhenyghi


Wait a minute, wasn't Jacques DeMolay burned at the stake? How could his image appear so vividly (with the beard and pierced extremities) if he was burned?...

According the theory, the Shroud was draped on de Molay shortly after being taken down from the crucifix upon which he was tortured to near death. The image was created at this time. Later, after having recovered somewhat from his injuries, he recanted his forced confession and was subsequently burned at the stake.

The shroud is a burial cloth, why would they place JDM in a burial cloth before burning him at the stake?