Why are Atheists Atheists?

GreatTech,

Originally posted by GreatTech
The Winged Wombat, sorry that I try to help some people with life. This must really be a "dishonorable" endeavor.

Pompous sarcasm will get you nowhere.

I did not make any mention of violence - you have adequately pointed out your non-violent demeanor. A transparent attempt on your part not to answer the real implications within my statement.

However, my comparison of your responses with what one might expect from Osama Bin Laden is valid and you may be surprised to discover to what extent.

Do you believe that there is only one true God? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that a glorious afterlife awaits the believers in your God? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that your particular faith is 'the only way' and 'the right way', whatever the consequences to society and humanity? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that non-believers in your faith are doomed, both in life and the afterlife? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that non-believers lives are less rewarding or less productive than your own, because of your faith? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that, as part of your faith, your duty is to convert others to your faith and by doing so you will earn a greater reward in the afterlife? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that, because of your faith, you have special attributes or qualities lacking in no-believers? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that you are the personal messenger of God? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Apparently So.
Do you believe that because of your claimed 'personal communication' with your God that any argument counter to your God is automatically wrong and not worth consideration? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that non-believers in your faith are unworthy? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe yourself superior to non-believers in your faith? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you feel that you have the right, because of your faith, to impose your ideas on others? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you find it extremely difficult to understand why others do not agree with your beliefs, even though they repeatedly explain it to you? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you ignore rational argument that may be at odds with your religious belief? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you rationalise your intolerance of others by cloaking it in religious dogma? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - Yes
Do you believe that, in your quest of conversion, that the ends justify the means? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - I SINCERELY HOPE NOT. (But from your posts I have wondered)
Do you believe that even if your conversion mission fails, that you will earn reward in the afterlife, by becoming a martyr in the attempt? OBL - Yes, GreatTech - It would certainly appear so.

You have dishonored yourself and your religion in the deceitful way you have set up this crusade and the manner in which you have selectively chosen to respond to the posts of others. In that sense you have demonstrated that to some extent, at least, you are willing to justify the ends regardless of the means.

Again, If it was conclusively proved that 'God' does not exist, do you believe that you would fall off the rails and return to the behaviour that you exhibited during you period of lack of faith? Yes or No.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 13/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

bjshobbes, I am still intermittenly thinking of your excellent question of how conservations with God have been like.

ConspiracyNut23, I am still intermittently thinking about your excellent question on ghosts.

The Winged Wombat, your line of questioning is absolutely outrageous. You are searching for a type of person that is not there with respect to me. The dangerous people of the world are angry at God, Heaven, or the world. I love God, Heaven, and the world (and all of His creation).

You mentioned that you are a Mensa member, like me (I believe it: you would make an excellent counterintelligence agent or lawyer), but you are barking up the wrong tree.

I won't bother attempting to counter all the false answers you made with your questions. This might take books to completely defend.

I will answer your question about whether I would fall into my "old behavior" if God did not exist. I probably would and would want life Infinitely Orgasmic for everybody constantly (sorry for sounding partly offensive). God has taught me differently, and the feeling of the Holy Spirit is greater than any orgasm (sorry again). God has taught me to be celibate for 12 years after a 6-year period of licentious behavior and I am still alive!!!

GreatTech,

I am not saying that you and OBL are the same. I am pointing out that there ARE similarities in the way you would answer these questions. By all means correct my estimation of what your answers would be. I can only make my judgement of your answers from the responses you have made here, and that is what I have done. If I have correctly estimated your answers, then please recognise that there are, in fact similarities between the presentation of your ideas and those of OBL.

It is simply not sufficient to say that anything is outrageous without some form of supporting evidence. The biggest lies in history have been the most outrageous ones. Outrage is but a form of denial and a method of avoiding the issue.

I begin to see the basis of your previous 'troubles'. (Without some information I had thought perhaps it may have been a drug problem). Am I to assume that you are a minister of religion, or are you a member of a charismatic religion?

The mainstream Christain church does not advocate celibacy except in certain circumstances (unmarried, some ministers who may not marry, etc). Does your faith advocate celibacy for all as a higher level of piousness? Please state your position on this.

I see no reason why anyone would be offended by the word 'Orgasmic'. Orgasm is an integral part of love making, which is the natural method of reproduction for human beings.

So you think that you would be a licentious person without the guidance of your God. Do you not think that, having learned the error of your ways, you could maintain a suitable level of self control without that guidance. That would infer that you are unable to learn from you mistakes, rather relying on outside guidance to keep you on the rails.

For you to imagine that athiests are all licentious, is madness in the extreme - once again you have transported your own problems onto others for no other reason than you personally associate the two things together. It just is not so. You confuse self-control with piousness, I'm afraid.

But if it works for you on a personal level, then so be it, who am I to argue with that. But don't for one moment assume that any of the rest of humanity require outside guidance to be decent people.

GreatTech, throughout this debate, you have consistantly taken the 'moral high ground' inferring your greater status because of your 'faith'. I'm genuinely sorry to have to put it this way, but I can think of no other way to say it. If you need outside assistance to control what you consider to be negative influences or behaviour in yourself, which others do not require such assistance, then, I'm afraid that makes you a lesser person than those who do not need such assistance to live decent, moral, productive and atruistic lives.

If your 'faith' makes you a better person, then I'm all for it - for you - not necessarily for me or others.

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 14/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

The Winged Wombat, do you have a higher power? For example, a government leader, a lion in the jungle, or an infectious insect? If you do not, maybe it is you that needs to be carefully observed, but not, of course, if you created the Universe.

I have one higher power, the Highest Power: GOD.

Nobody can permanently handle power at the top unless that Being is Divine; that Being in the English language is GOD.

GreatTech:

I am God and I want you to stop calling me God and begin calling me Existence, and start referring to your blessed Human beings not as Christians, Athiests, or any other religious label, but as Human Beings, by their names and through the experience of existence that we all share together.

I love you and you are my equal, for it is you that makes known I, and it is I that makes known you

[edit on 14-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

GreatTech,

For all you know, I may well have created the universe (but if I did, I'm certainly not aware of it) - on the other hand it may all be a figment of my imagination and you are merely something added for my enjoyment.

I worship no man, beast or being. I do not even have any sports heroes and never have. My chosen sport (as a participant at 58 years of age) is motor sport, but I see Michael Schumacher (perhaps the greatest driver of all time) as merely a man - albeit a superb athlete with finely tuned reflexes - but still just a man. (as used to be said - we all pull our trousers on one leg at a time)

Don't get me wrong - I respect and admire those creatures, human or otherwise, that have skills or physical or mental abilities greater than myself - otherwise I would not have lived this long - but I do not worship them or call them 'Gods'. The most powerful animal in the jungle can be felled with a single shot from a gun.

I am open to any form of scrutiny that you may wish to suggest for I have absolutely nothing to hide. No agenda, no bias except my dislike of lies and bigotry. I am ready to give any suggestion (no matter how outrageous) due consideration and make my own decision of its merits based on the facts, the figures and the benefits that may be gained by humanity.

With regards to power, I am in total agreement with ariesanngel - When we replace the love of power with the power of love (tolerance), we will all be better off.

I personally believe that any person who aspires to the acquisition of power should be disqualified from all political / government positions, for the acquisition of power is just another form of greed. Perhaps even worse than the pursuit of riches.

The Winged Wombat

Of course, it was expected that you make some diversionary statement rather than address the points from my last post - Very predictable.


[edit on 14/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Hey LastOutfinite.....

Er, sorry, I should have addressed you as 'Existance', please accept my apologies.

Very succinct - I like it.

Do you happen to have next weeks Lotto numbers handy?

The Winged Wombat
PS - I'll split 50/50 with you!


[edit on 14/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat
Hey LastOutfinite.....

Er, sorry, I should have addressed you as...
PS - I'll split 50/50 with you!

Haha. Just trying to make a point Lottery numbers, who cares? Let's just have diiner, a movie, and a laugh. Pick up some video games, go running, make a few posts on ATS etc. etc. etc. Love has not a thing to do with God or religion... well unfortunately it does because it obstructs it, but it wouldn't if there was no God or religion. We'd all just love each other because we can, and because it would keep the peace

I couldn't agree more 'Existance'

I would also make the point that 'Love' in this context is interchangeable with 'Tolerant'

The Winged Wombat

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat
I couldn't agree more 'Existance'

I would also make the point that 'Love' in this context is interchangeable with 'Tolerant'

The Winged Wombat

Yes. True love is tolerance, acceptance, responsibility for every thing. That's all we could ask for when the religious battles hit the fan, but they must see that it is their division that is causing this intolerance of each other. If they could only, for a moment... drop the labels and love each other for the beauty of their skin, eyes, hair, brains, ears, music and similarities... instead of their differences... their differences that they have created through these organizations

Originally posted by GreatTech
The dangerous people of the world are angry at God, Heaven, or the world.

GreatTech,

Then by your definition, athiests must be the least dangerous people on the planet. How can a person be angry at something they do not believe exists. Only a person who believes there is a 'God' could conceivably be angry at that 'God'

For instance, I don't believe that Allah exists, so I couldn't possibly be angry with Allah, now could I. Likewise, since you appear to be of Christian faith, then presumably you couldn't be angry with Allah either.

Likewise for Heaven - I don't believe it exists, ergo it is impossible for me to be angry at Heaven.

With regard to 'the world', I'm not sure exactly what you are referring to - do you mean the collective peoples of the world, one's lot in life, the politics of the world, the physical planet, the conditions under which an individual exists in their environment.

If you are referring to the conditions that people in underdeveloped countries endure due to the exploitation of multinational companies, then I would suggest that they have much to be angry about, and justifiably so. If that makes them dangerous, then they are only dangerous to those who exploit them.

If, when you 'lost your faith', you were angry at your 'God', then logically you had not lost your belief in a 'God'. Therefore it would be more accurate to say that during that period you rebelled against, or defied your 'God'. It then logically follows that you have never been an athiest.

So, I guess we are in agreement regarding this statement, except that you think the people you are describing are athiests and I think your definition refers to believers who defy or deliberately misinterpret their 'God' (eg:- OBL).

Please understand this. An athiest is a person who does not believe there is a 'God' - any 'God' - or accept the proposition that any being is omnipotent. An athiest is NOT a person who believes there is a 'God' but chooses to defy that 'God' (I don't know if there is a single word for this, but I suppose that would be a 'bad' - insert whatever religion is appropriate - as one would have to believe that a particular 'God' exists and that would tend to indicate a particular religion).

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 14/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

LastOutfinite (if I may be so familiar)

While I agree that the differences between religious organisations is divisive and destructive, I would include the differences of culture as something we should all embrace.

After all, if we were all the same it would be a very boring planet.

Being in Australia, I have experienced great migration from all over the world to this country over the last 50 years (just as the USA did 100 years earlier). While that migration may have caused some short term uneasiness, by and large Australia's population has absorbed the cultural traits and customs of our new citizens and they have absorbed our existing culture equally. This has enriched everything in this country from mutual understanding to cuisine. For instance, 50 years ago it would have been very unlikely that an ethnically Australian would go out and celebrate the Chinese New Year with their friends of Chinese extraction (if indeed they had any), but these days it's Hong Tse Fat Choi ('Happy New Year'), and lets all go out and celebrate.

As a teenager, I was, for a time a member of a rock band, the majority of who's members were Italian. - Man! grappa can leave you with one real bad headache the next day! Great Guys.

The USA seems to have forgotten that it was in the same situation 150 years ago, and now appears (from the outside looking in) to be particularly xenophobic, in spite of the fact that America, like Australia is a nation of immigrants.

Let us embrace the differences as well, it makes our own lives so much richer.

The Winged Wombat


[edit on 14/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Originally posted by GreatTech
you would make an excellent counterintelligence agent or lawyer

GreatTech,

Oh please don't liken me to a lawyer, they have such a bad public image! Next you will be calling me blonde !

Only joking.

Apologies to lawyers and blondes and especially blonde lawyers.

The Winged Wombat

Originally posted by The Winged Wombat
accepting differences

Very nice And in accepting each other's differences we are all then similar in nature. Similar through our differences and similar through accepting. Nice post, again. Very good stuff there wombat. We who can see this must bring them to that realization, but it cannot be forced or there will be rebellion (not pointing fingers, only making a statement for any and all reading). Give, give, and give, when they don't want to hear it any more, nicely leave them be, you have planted a seed already

Thanks LastOutfinite.

I love your signature, by the way.

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 14/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

The question being asked by this thread is 'Why are Atheist, Atheists?'

The very simple answer is that they do not believe in God, obviously. The reason behind this is just as simple, they believe themselves to be selfsufficient. In the physical world, this may or may not be true to a certain extent. However, without God, you may have quite a surprise when you leave this physical world and take your spirtual form. Seperation from God here on earth means eternal seperation from Him in the next life. Obviously athiest don't believe this, but the time to realize your wrong is not when you find yourself in the middle of Hell. Faith is such a simple thing and so little to ask from the one who created and sustains us.

Thank you Wombat.

Here is an excellent thread to explain why Athiests are athiests! It also explains why God isn't sitting on some throne in "Heaven" beyond the universe holding Jesus in his Giant right hand with his servent angels playing music all around him, why there is no beyond the "physical" and why there is no "spiritual" realm, and so on and so on.

Duality of Nothing: Triality of Existence

I'd also like it if you could add to the discussion! Your wits would be appreciated in such a field of thought Thx

Okay, I'm done here, enjoy every one and in joy every one

[edit on 14-4-2007 by LastOutfiniteVoiceEternal]

lonewolf37,

With the exception that an athiest feels themself self-sufficient (we are as interdependent on the rest of humanity as everyone else is), I would tend to agree with you.

However, we, as athiests do not believe that a 'God' exists, and realise the consequences of a sudden surprise if we are wrong. This does not in any way infer that your religion is right, or indeed that any other religion is right. That you believe that your religion is correct, is fine with us, we do not presume to change your views in any way.

You will find that the instigator of this thead did not seek the answer that either you are any other participant has provided, but that he has been on a crusade of conversion, and belittlement of anyone who does not agree with his particular beliefs.

The answer to the initial question has been provided many times over.

Upon reading the entire thread, you will discover that much of it's content concerns the instigator's assumed right to push his beliefs upon others.

Contrary to the last part of your post, I would say that in a universe of infinite variety, it is quite a big step (and somewhat arrogant - not personal arrogance, but collective human arrogance) to believe that an omnipotent 'God / Creator Being' created humanity (insignificant as man is, in terms of the universe) in 'His' image.

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 14/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]

Wombat,


Thank you for your comments. I obviously do not agree with the atheist point of view, so I would like to explain to you why. I t seems to me that most atheists seem feel they are too sophisticated to believe in things that do not have scientific proof. You should be aware that Christians are not generally unintelligent people who are simple minded. There are logical reasons to believe in the Creator as well as spiritual ones.
Our universe is an intricate system of systems. Each, whether vast like a galaxy or a solar system, small like a community or echo system, or minute like a cell or a molecule, all work together in unison and even support of one another. Given this it is inconceivable to think that such an elaborate and balanced system could occur without intelligent design. Therefore I believe God is the ‘architect’ of our universe as He has stated in His word. And if I am going to believe that then I am going to believe all He says as truth. Therefore I believe wholly in the Bible. As the creator He is naturally going to care for his creation and His word says that we were a special part of this Creation and were made to be the caretakers of our world. He has supplied us with an instruction manual not only for our world, but for our physical and spiritual bodies. He has explained to us, everything we need to know to move on to the next level of our existence in peace and harmony with Him. The choice to believe in Him and trust His word is ours, but he does tell us the consequences. A short lifetime on this earth of service to Him is a very small and actually enjoyable price to pay for everlasting peace. Especially considering the alternative.

What I will say is that proving Gods existence would destroy the basis of religion which is faith. Absolute solid proof would mean the end of faith and faith is what God wants of us most of all. Jesus said,


KJV John 20
29 Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

how about this answer:

all evidence points towards there being no supernatural influence in this universe.

what about this one:

THERE IS NO GOD

is that what you were looking for? atheists are atheists because there is no god