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Why are Atheists Atheists?

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posted on Mar, 30 2007 @ 10:21 AM
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Like I said pointless talk for no reason.

Of course the Devil has free will. Too test man. end the end its the man choice to do what they want. But the fact those things would not be infront of us with God or the devil in that fact.

If its prove you want to find God and believe in him. Your lost. One of the whole points in the bible is faith. Cant have faith if you know.

Godbless hope things might change for you. But I will tell you this if you try praying he'll show himself to you. Just not the way your looking for.




posted on Mar, 30 2007 @ 10:43 AM
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GreatTech,

I'll deal with only one point initially, and that is that the USA did not 'win' the Cold War.

Understand history, please. If you know anything at all about the Russian mindset, it is one that believes that they are always about to be attacked. Historically, the Russian people had NEVER been in a war that wasn't first fought on their own territory - until Afghanistan. Historically also, the US Military/Industrial Complex myth that the USSR had overwhelming arms was proved to be just that - a myth. A little simple logic applied to the running of the USSR by a succession of despots should obviously lead to the conclusion that the country could simply not afford to achieve that situation - this has proved to be true. The historical reality is that the USA bankrupted the USSR, which (rightly or wrongly) believing that it was under threat from the West, spent most of its money attempting to defend itself. Just a small example of this is the MiG-25 Mach 3 interceptor - designed specifically (at massive cost) to intercept and destroy the US North American B-70 Valkyrie Bomber (a project subsequently cancelled).

The break-up of the Soviet Union has resulted in an increase in crime (particularly organised crime), the redistribustion of wealth (what little there is) into far fewer hands, the spread of corruption, and the lowering of the standard of living for all but a few - how like the USA - is that the 'democracy' that you wish the world to have? Consider this - for one man to become rich, means that it has to come out of someone else's pocket! It doesn't magically appear out of nowhere.

Please see beyond your national propaganda, and see the whole truth of a situation. I'm sorry to say that much of the rest of the world knows more about the USA than its own citizens, and US citizens know so little about the rest of the world.

That the western world is more economically successful than the East (you forgot to mention Japan - or have you absorbed Japan into -'The West' - no doubt you'll do the same with the emerging mega economies of India and China as well), specifically the USSR, is more a matter of despotic government than ideology or 'faith'. In reality, the only real philosophical differences between socialism (note - not communism) and whatever US philosophy is (you cannot call it democracy as it is nothing like the definition of democracy), is that the representatives in a socialist society are elected by committees, which are elected by the people. In fact you will find that the phrase 'Under God' was only added to your oath of allegiance in the 50's, because your government felt that the existing oath sounded too much like a socialist manifesto - don't take my word for it - check the facts. Indeed your constitutional separation between Church and State would tend to make that addition to the oath unconstitutional (a situation challenged in US District Courts within the last couple of years)

The other difference is Greed! Socialism advocates only taking from society what you need - that is, don't aim for huge profits. I do not understand how a Christian can defend a society such as the USA, which is based on nothing more than greed, where there is such a vast difference in the living standard between rich and poor, and where the government legislates only for the rich.

In spite of you constitution, which espouses government for the people, by the people, the fact is that only the massively wealthy could be elected in your country, by far less than the total population (voting not mandatory), and produces government, which does not feel itself responsible for employment and the wellbeing of its population.

To take a rather obvious (to me) example. During the Depression (a situation created by American greed), the people of the USA suffered terribly because the government was of the belief that it is the private sector that is responsible for employment levels, and would do little directly to ease the situation (in my view that situation still exists - example Cyclone Katrina relief 'efforts' - an international humanitarian disgrace). By contrast, one of the most abhorant figures of 20th century history, Adolf Hitler, alleviated much of the suffering of his people during that period by government spending on public projects to create work, and I DON'T mean weapons. I refer to the same Autobahns you drive on when you go and visit Germany! Is it any wonder that he ended up with a huge following. Likewise other 'democracies' around the world believe that employment, and therefore the standard of living of their citizens is Government Business, not Private Enterprise Business.

You will discover, perhaps, that the wealth of a nation cannot be measured by how much money the collective individuals have squirrelled away, but by how often the money changes hands. So the acquisition of far more money than anyone could ever spend actually decreases the national wealth and standard of living - perhaps something that Bill Gates has discovered.

I honestly cannot reconcile how a person of any conventional 'religion' can love the USA. Please explain it to me if you can. Please explain to me where Greed fits into the Bible, or indeed any Holy text.

Finally, a point of order. This discussion began about aethiests, however, your arguments appear solely Christian - are you including all other religions in the term aethiest? If so, realise this, Christianity (by population) is a minority religion worldwide - so get your beliefs into perspective.

The Winged Wombat



posted on Mar, 30 2007 @ 11:17 AM
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GreatTech

Your argument concerning the matter of 'everlasting life' is false because you are only looking at the picture from the view of a Christian. Take the beliefs of a Hindu, everlasting life through reincarnation - so how come India isn't leading the world to mankind's glorious future?

Longer lifespan for believers - really. Discounting longer lifespan for peoples of more developed countries as an argument - show me your figures Mr. Mathematician - show me facts, not just your blind faith. And just why would a nation of 'believers' want to extend, or even value longer human lifespan (interfering with 'God's power' again) when you have the perfect 'heaven' to go to. Doesn't seem to make much sense to me. At the height of Christian intolerance medical research was brutally inhibited - and not much seems to have changed today.

Unless you can come up with some real figures regarding this 'longer lifespan' for 'believers', I'm afraid your argument is totally invalid.

I see that you have confined history to the last 2000 years - you're going to really upset the Chinese and the Egyptians with that one - if your total view of history is so confined, then you have much to learn.

I think Melatonin has said all that needs to be said about the 'Holy Roman Empire'.

And just who are you to predict that 1006 years is the maximum length of an empire - are you claiming you can see the future ?

So, I am left to assume that this is not about atheists or even the 'religious' vs atheists, but is really a Christian crusade against everyone else. And I thought intolerance was, at least, frowned upon in the Bible. If you honestly believe in 'free will' then how about respecting it in others.

The Winged Wombat



[edit on 30/3/07 by The Winged Wombat]



posted on Mar, 31 2007 @ 10:16 AM
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I only joined this forum so that I could reply to this thread, because i have never heard such pathetic and insulting comments directed at someone that has faith within themselves instead of a myth.

I am a non beleiver, and do not try and push this onto beleivers. I wish people would grow up and show some consideration toward others, and I have a feeling my consideration towards some pushy christians is beyond polite sorry, I am not normally like this, but enough is enough.

I do not appreciate your cults trying to play mind games with our conscience. Yes, I used the word cult, look that up in your damn dictionary
) I am totally disgusted that someone that is a part of such a thing would try and pressure individuals and families into this. And the nerve to knock on MY door to spread the word of god, gee! And then claim they are the good guys. I dont want MY kids to have a fake perception on life, and death. When ya dead, ya dead, so live like there is no tomorrow NOW. And either way, its a personal choice, so stay out of my face.

Too much destruction, death, war, destruction, and the list goes on, has been the cause of these beleifs. And I have had enough. I am a kind person that is always ready to put my hand out to anyone in need. I have empathy, and I love life. I teach my children to have faith in themselves, and they are very happy and loving children. My children do not need their heads filled with an unhealthy, voilent, and power hungry cult, that hides behind good values.

I am not blind to the world. I am not after power, which is what religion is yes? I have read the bible, great fiction, but true, your kidding yourself. Take your head out of the clouds, and start taking responsiblity for your own actions and really look around yourself. Sitting in a building called a church, confessing, doesnt make it ok. Why build a church with expensive fittings in the first place, when god is supposed to be everywhere, why not build something that will really help your community instead. Why the need for forgiveness from another person that hides behind a religion, learn to forgive yourself, but not forget, learn your lesson, dont do it again and move on.

You have no idea how angry I am that some christians catch tunnel vision. I have been down the christian track once before, and what a releif it was when finally the blinkers came down and I saw reality again. I dont have to hide behind anything, because I am a good person. It was like my inner self had been locked up for all those years, and finally I was free to walk my path in life. Athiests tend to accept everyone for who they are, no judgement, no need to change them. So really, if there is a god, are you really living your life by his word, probably not.

I beleive the bible was written to help people learn to respect, kindness, love and the ability to accept all walks of life, not to turn on each other in a raging religous fit, but thats what has happened.

The more christians push, the more people turn away from it, so are you really workin for god or agaisnt him. I am happy that you find comfort in beleiving this, but keep it too yourself unless your asked, its rude otherwise. Its kind of like the over enthusiastic pyramid seller.

I feel so much better now I have finally said that, have wanted to for years.

Take care, and peace to ya!



posted on Mar, 31 2007 @ 07:52 PM
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Originally posted by Bonnie1
When ya dead, ya dead



Bonnie1, and other atheists, if you were the only human being living, how would you prove that you are alive? God alerts people that they are alive when He deems appropriate.

If you died, how would you prove that you were dead? God alerts people when they have have suffered human death.

The "tunnel vision" that you mention rests with the atheists who have extreme difficulty in imagining an afterlife.

"Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Luke 23:34

Happy Easter!!!



posted on Mar, 31 2007 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by GreatTech

The "tunnel vision" that you mention rests with the atheists who have extreme difficulty in imagining an afterlife.



This could just as easily apply to yourself GreatTech and the followers of religion, who are unable to imagine living life without an emotional crutch, (the afterlife).



posted on Mar, 31 2007 @ 08:22 PM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
Bonnie1, and other atheists, if you were the only human being living, how would you prove that you are alive


By walking without batteries. Or that first wild beast you meet (lion, bear, etc.) would show you how alive you once were.


If you died, how would you prove that you were dead?


Usually the heart rate monitor warns of someone death. No gods needed.


The "tunnel vision" that you mention rests with the atheists who have extreme difficulty in imagining an afterlife.

“Imagining” being the key word here, as in your imagination.


Happy Easter!!!


Do you have any idea why Easter is on the equinox? Why is Christmas during the Solstice?

I’ve noticed you are still ignoring Dionysus. Don’t want to go there do you? Because any rational person would find it strange that their so-called truth is based entirely on previous myths.



posted on Mar, 31 2007 @ 10:36 PM
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Originally posted by GreatTech

Originally posted by Bonnie1
When ya dead, ya dead



Bonnie1, and other atheists, if you were the only human being living, how would you prove that you are alive? God alerts people that they are alive when He deems appropriate.

If you died, how would you prove that you were dead? God alerts people when they have have suffered human death.

The "tunnel vision" that you mention rests with the atheists who have extreme difficulty in imagining an afterlife.

"Father, forgive them, they know not what they do." Luke 23:34

Happy Easter!!!


How did I know that someone was going to ask god to forgive me, thats just too funny. Hmmmm, cant figure out what I did wrong tho!


And how do I know that I am dead, well I probably wont, because I will be ummm, dead. And how do I know I am alive if I am the only person left, well thats not hard either, because like you said, I am the only LIVING person, if I wasnt living, I would be dead.

I have a great imagination thanks, but I am smart enough to know what reality is.

Even in death, you wont realise that this train of thought was all a mistake, because you will be too dead to know it.

Why the need to use god to hide behind your past. If it comforts you, thats great, but dont go telling me, I have seen the light, so my past doesnt matter. The past will always come back and bite you.



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 01:18 AM
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tech, here's a good way to see it.

i'm going to live a good life whether or not a deity exists because i can empathize with other humans. i'm going to attempt at progress in the world. i'll do what i think is right. i'll treat others and myself well. if i live this good life and your deity actually exists, would i really be destined for hellfire?

i think i'm not taking that much of a gamble, unless your all-knowing deity is really that petty

and it's not true that i can't IMAGINE an afterlife, it's easy to IMAGINE something. but that's where it ends

[edit on 4/1/07 by madnessinmysoul]



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 01:30 AM
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GreatTech,

What is all this BS about proof of life. Who gives a rats rectum! While you obviously believe that your 'faith' gives you some 'proof' that you are alive, the rest of us are happy to live our lives without caring whether we exist in reality (whatever that might be) or not. We are quite satisfied to use and enjoy whatever time we have. We don't want more and we don't require an afterlife. But yes we do exist, the fact that you continue to harange us with your ill-informed, tunnel-visioned, intolerant, archaic dogma should prove it even to you (or do you believe that all the negative responses you've received are but a figment of your overactive imagination - and arguing with your own imagination is, most definitely, a sign of mental illness).

So you believe that after you die you will go to a 'perfect place' that apparently does not include 'free will' - well why would you want free will in 'heaven' - sounds an awful lot like a certain Communist manifesto for the former USSR to me. Perfection, but alas no 'free will'. I certainly hope, for your sake, that you agree with all the rules when you get there. Or is 'heaven' supposed to be a democracy - oh, no, that's right, you get cast into hell if you can't toe the line - sounds like a dictatorship to me. You don't even see the ramifications and consequences of your arguments, do you? (And does that sound like American foreign policy to me? - sure does!)

I ask you once AGAIN. Are you including all religions other than Christianity in the term 'athiest' ?

If you are not, then you obviously don't know enough about the other religions to make a sensible argument, and should be off arguing with the Catholics and Protestants regarding the esoteria of Christianity.

If you do include non-Christian religions in the term 'atheist' then you are nothing more than a bigot!

And yes, there is only two answers to that question, and either answer does make you look pretty stupid. Take the message on board, GreatTech, your self appointed mission has failed - you will make no converts here - you are only doing more damge to the already tarnished reputation of your religion.

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 1/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 07:54 AM
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GreatTech,

You seem much influenced by your mistaken belief that the West 'won' the Cold War. Think about it, the Cold War was 45 years of mutual suspicion which wasted billions of dollars, pounds, francs and roubles making arms manufacturers rich, and apparently making much of the US population absolutely paranoid for life. (Not to mention the vast number of people whose lives and standard of living has been destroyed)

And to what effect - an absolute waste of time, resources and money (a WOFTAM - a Waste of F****** Time and Money) while the poor continue to starve and the ill continue to have no cure - but you just go ahead and be proud of it.

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 1/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 05:22 PM
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Originally posted by The Winged Wombat

I ask you once AGAIN. Are you including all religions other than Christianity in the term 'athiest' ?



Once again, one does not need any religion (defined as human organized communion with God) to be a believer. But one requires Spirituality (defined as personal communion with God) to be a theist. Of note, is that one can be an atheist and have a religion. As such, Spirituality is a necessary requirement for faith but religion is not.

There are many good religions in the world and one certainly does not have to be Christian to be a theist. One can have an established religion, invented his or her own religion, or have no religion at all and still be a strong believer in God.

A question for atheists: if you found out that an Omnipotent and Omniscient God exists, would you love Him or hate Him?



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by GreatTech

Of note, is that one can be an atheist and have a religion.


From Webster's Pocket Dictionary.

re-li'gion n the belief in a controlling power outside oneself; a system of belief; an order of worship; an obsessive pursuit or cause


I dont believe any of these definitions relate to atheism, so what is it that you mean exactly.


Originally posted by GreatTech
A question for atheists: if you found out that an Omnipotent and Omniscient God exists, would you love Him or hate Him?


How do you know that God has a specific gender. ie Him.

If a God showed Himself/Herself/Itself to me i'd like to ask it why it is such a p****. Then i'd duck before it could smite me.



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 06:35 PM
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mojo4sale,

GreatTech obviously considers himself/herself a Christian, so therefore to him/her God is male, because the Bible says so, and we all know that the Bible is not open to amendment (unless Christians say it is, that is).

GreatTech should be a politician, because that last response had lots of words, but neither answered the question, nor made any sense at all.

The Winged Wombat



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 06:51 PM
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GreatTech,

If I discovered that an omnipotent 'Being' or 'entity' existed (I would not say 'God' because that infers worship of the entity), I would be somewhat in awe, but my first reaction would be one of wariness, because omnipotence does not necessarily infer good (from the viewpoint of humanity) intention.

Therefore, my reaction would depend upon the actions and intentions of the omnipotent entity.

Omnipotence, in mathematical terms, could be defined as infinitely powerful, it neither infers 'good' nor 'bad', which in any case is merely a human perspective. For example a 'good' diet might include fish (the current human 'magic bullet' being Omega 3 fatty acids) from a human perspective, but undoubtedly it is 'bad' from the perspective of a Tuna!

That I would comply with a 'request' from an omnipotent entity, in no way infers worship of same, merely a sense of self preservation.

So to answer your question directly - neither love nor hate - I would respect its power.

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 1/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
Once again, one does not need any religion (defined as human organized communion with God) to be a believer. But one requires Spirituality (defined as personal communion with God) to be a theist. Of note, is that one can be an atheist and have a religion. As such, Spirituality is a necessary requirement for faith but religion is not.


no you can't
unless you count secular people praciticing religious traditions for social and cultural reasons. however, that doesn't really count as having a religion



There are many good religions in the world and one certainly does not have to be Christian to be a theist. One can have an established religion, invented his or her own religion, or have no religion at all and still be a strong believer in God.


well, yes and no. i'll disagree with the point on there being good religions.



A question for atheists: if you found out that an Omnipotent and Omniscient God exists, would you love Him or hate Him?


i don't know. which omnipotent and omniscient god is it?

if it was the abrahamic god i'd despise it. and if i met that god it would have a lot of explaining to do
if it was aten, i'd be completely neutral



posted on Apr, 1 2007 @ 09:34 PM
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From Webster's Pocket Dictionary.

re-li'gion n the belief in a controlling power outside oneself; a system of belief; an order of worship; an obsessive pursuit or cause



GreatTech,

Please take note of the last definition - particularly the word 'obsessive'

To reverse your question, what would be your reaction if (as in Douglas Adams' book Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy) you suddenly discovered that the Earth had been built for the mice?

The Winged Wombat

[edit on 1/4/07 by The Winged Wombat]



posted on Apr, 2 2007 @ 12:17 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul

if it was the abrahamic god i'd despise it. and if i met that god it would have a lot of explaining to do
if it was aten, i'd be completely neutral


madnessinmysoul, do you have a personal God, one independent of what you have read, seen, heard, touched, tasted, or smelled?

Do you believe that the Bible has at least a little bit of love?



posted on Apr, 2 2007 @ 06:40 AM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
Do you believe that the Bible has at least a little bit of love?


I do believe the Bible has some amount of 'love' in it. I also think that Winnie the Pooh far outdoes the Bible in terms of love. However, I do not worship stuffed teddy bears.



posted on Apr, 2 2007 @ 09:09 AM
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Originally posted by GreatTech
madnessinmysoul, do you have a personal God, one independent of what you have read, seen, heard, touched, tasted, or smelled?


i'm an atheist, i have no deity or supernatural being of any sort



Do you believe that the Bible has at least a little bit of love?


depends on what you mean by love. if you mean good stuff, sure. it would be improbable to take a book that long and not find something good in it.



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