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Raptor Report from Red Flag 2007/1

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posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:21 PM
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Some of you may know that Intelgurl (Natalie) is out at Creech AFB, and because of this close proximity to Nellis she had several opportunities to view some of the action at Red Flag. Because she is currently unable to engage in internet activity where she is, she called me with this report:

In case you were unaware, this was the first Red Flag that the Raptor has participated in and they apparently flew with British GR-4 Tornados and Australian F-111's as well as US B-2's, F-117's (you thought they were retired, didn't you?) F-15's and F-16's.

The quoted phrase that every pilot seemed to be saying after coming down from flying with the Raptors was "unfair advantage".

It was stressed in more than one press & industry conference that this Red Flag was not a promotional for the F-22's, the aggressors tried every tactic they could to bring down the Raptor, there was simulated air defense systems using very sophisticated technology, as well as various forms of jamming and ECM.

At this writing there are no official numbers or stats, but according to the pilots and support personnel, the Raptor "cleaned house" as one British pilot stated.


Related Thread:
Aircraft Projects » F-22 Will Debut At Red Flag




posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:54 PM
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thanks for the update Bios.
Can we get the RAF Tornado Sqns which took part in the exercise?

Thanks,

DD3

P.S: Forward our thanks to intelgurl as well and tell her to keep th intel coming!!


[edit on 18-2-2007 by Daedalus3]



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 08:53 AM
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So from what I've understood that the Raptors always fly on the blue forces and I'm just wondering what planes they are flying as the red forces.

Just for interest sakes I'm wondering how the Raptors would fare if they had F-117 trying to get past the 22's.

Again pass on our thanks to Intelgurl.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 09:26 AM
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Originally posted by Canada_EH
So from what I've understood that the Raptors always fly on the blue forces and I'm just wondering what planes they are flying as the red forces.

Raptors are always blue, yes. The Red forces are generally F-15's and F-16's. No non-USAF guests fly as agressors.



Again pass on our thanks to Intelgurl.

She's got to call me - I can't call her there... But I will relay your thanks.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 10:46 AM
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Nice, good job IG




I wonder will they give the aggressor squads some F-22s to play with? Would certainly liven things up



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 05:47 PM
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Probably not Kilcoo, though I would certainly like to see some F-15C's with AESA go to the 65th in order to represent the advancement in enemy AC. However I have read several interviews with Langley pilots in which they talk about 'pilot staged' F-22 vs. F-22 engagements. Unfortunately they don't specify any results...



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 06:58 PM
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how did the Eurofighter do? and Migs and Sukoskis?


those fighters were at the Red Flag too, right? if not just ignore me.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 12:20 AM
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Ignored!!

Maybe you'll see Sukhois at one of the Red Flags in 08.
But like Bios said, visiting forces never play Red; they're always Blue.

Question:
So now if the visiting forces do not play Red, then I suppose this time round the Blue objectives would have been more 'offensive'(interdiction,CAS etc.)? rather than Air Defence. Can't see Tornadoes and Aardvarks do much Air Defense against F-15s and F-16s!




Probably not Kilcoo, though I would certainly like to see some F-15C's with AESA go to the 65th in order to represent the advancement in enemy AC. However I have read several interviews with Langley pilots in which they talk about 'pilot staged' F-22 vs. F-22 engagements. Unfortunately they don't specify any results


I've asked about this before also!
Northern Edge I think, the radar involvement in a Raptor-on-Raptor would be vveeeeerrry interesting



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 03:57 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23
Probably not Kilcoo,


They will eventually I suppose, if only to represent the threat of a PAK-FA type machine.



though I would certainly like to see some F-15C's with AESA go to the 65th in order to represent the advancement in enemy AC.


They've tried the 'super' hornet against the F-22 before, haven't they? Although I would count the F-15 as a more capable airframe any day of the week.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 04:11 AM
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Do the blue forces get to use AWACS and other operational sensor systems? And do the red forces get to use anything similar?



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
So now if the visiting forces do not play Red, then I suppose this time round the Blue objectives would have been more 'offensive'(interdiction,CAS etc.)? rather than Air Defence. Can't see Tornadoes and Aardvarks do much Air Defense against F-15s and F-16s!


The Raptors were supposed to do top cover for the F-111's and Tornados which were mainly doing ground strike missions. So in this case the Raptors were in charge of air defense for the blue forces.


Originally posted by kilcoo316
They will eventually I suppose, if only to represent the threat of a PAK-FA type machine.


Well, eventually yeah but I think the F-35 has a better chance of being used in a dedicated aggressor squadron before the F-22, even though it will enter service later.


Originally posted by kilcoo316
They've tried the 'super' hornet against the F-22 before, haven't they?


In Northern Edge the F-22 went up against AESA Super Hornets and I'm sure against Alaska's AESA F-15's. However I meant it would be good having an AESA OPFOR for all blue forces, not just F-22's.


Originally posted by Astronomer70
Do the blue forces get to use AWACS and other operational sensor systems? And do the red forces get to use anything similar?


I believe they do, I don't know if Red forces have AWACS as well but they do sometimes get CGI updates on where Raptors are. Also they have jamming assets as well as simulated double digit SAM's, well, at least they did during this Red Flag.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 10:40 PM
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Hi all,
I was wondering if there was any news on how the Aussie F-111's went? Even though they had the advantage of being covered by Raptors, based on past performances I bet they have acquited themselves well.

Which is exactly why the defence mandarins at Ft Fumble in Canberra, wont be too keen on publicising the truth. Afterall they have to justify buying Super Hornets and F-35's to replace the pigs.

"Sigghh", this may be the only time we ever get to see the Raptor and Pig play together! "OH what might have been.... ."



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 01:19 AM
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Originally posted by WestPoint23

Originally posted by Daedalus3
So now if the visiting forces do not play Red, then I suppose this time round the Blue objectives would have been more 'offensive'(interdiction,CAS etc.)? rather than Air Defence. Can't see Tornadoes and Aardvarks do much Air Defense against F-15s and F-16s!


The Raptors were supposed to do top cover for the F-111's and Tornados which were mainly doing ground strike missions. So in this case the Raptors were in charge of air defense for the blue forces.


Yea.. I asked because if I remember correctly, Northern Edge had F-22s playing Air base defence(interceptor) roles. I wonde why that involved mid-air refuelings then..



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 02:44 PM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
Yea.. I asked because if I remember correctly, Northern Edge had F-22s playing Air base defence(interceptor) roles. I wonde why that involved mid-air refuelings then..


Might have something to do with the mission time, somewhere in the neighborhood of 2.5-3 hours. Blue and Red forces need to rueful to complete that kind of mission. Also, instead of returning to base and in order to regenerate numbers faster; Red forces would go to a tanker (acting as a simulated air base) and then once they were filled up would reenter the fight. However Raptors were still flying double digit sorties everyday during Northern Edge.



posted on Feb, 22 2007 @ 02:55 PM
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Red Flag Update

Now this is what I've been waiting to hear! So much for super-duper (WVR only) jets this baby is not only a BVR monster but a WVR one as well. Even when they purposely go to the merge they still cant be killed, our British and Australian buddies should be glad it's on their side...

Must Read For All





February 22, 2007 (by TSgt Russell Wicke) - "Undercover" is an understatement for the F-22A Raptor. A point clearly illustrated by pilots of the 94th FS, who delivered an aerial sucker punch to the seasoned Red Force opponents during the F-22A's debut at Red Flag Feb. 3 -16.

Among the Blue Force participants were foreign pilots from the Royal Air Force of England and Royal Australian Air Force, flying the GR-4 and F-111C respectively. In addition, the F-22s flew with the B-2 Spirit and F-117 Nighthawk, the aircraft that pioneered stealth.

When the Raptor finds itself in a dogfight, it is no longer beyond visual range, but the advantage of stealth isn't diminished. It maintains "high ground" even at close range.

"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

Lt. Col. Larry Bruce, 65th AS commander, admits flying against the Raptor is a very frustrating experience. Reluctantly, he admitted "it's humbling to fly against the F-22," - humbling, not only because of its stealth, but also its unmatched maneuverability and power.

Source




The Challenge - 'This ain't your daddy's Red Flag anymore'

Despite the F-22's "unfair advantage," flying against the Red Force aggressors of the 414th Combat Training Squadron is no walk in the park, according to Colonel Smith. Aggressor pilots are made up of F-16 and F-15 pilots, specially trained to replicate tactics and techniques of potential adversaries said Maj. Bill Woolf, 57th Adversary Tactics Group assistant director of operations. In addition, he said the Red Flag is involved in a major reformation, designed to duplicate the world's most lethal threats.

"These scenarios are not made to be easy," said Colonel Smith. "The [Red Force] pilots are well trained and good at their job."

Also, Red Forces aren't limited to aggressor pilots. There is no shortage of ground threats at Red Flag. These include electronically simulated surface-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft artillery, communications jamming, Global Positioning System jamming and more said Major Woolf.

Source


I recommend everyone also read this, it's a little older but very very interesting...

F-22: Unseen And Lethal (PDF)

Another Interesting Read...

Raptor debuts at Red Flag, Dominates Skies

Also, the following Raptors deployed to Red Flag... 03-041, 03-045, 03-046, 04-067, 04-068, 04-069, 04-072, 04-073, 04-075, 04-080, 04-081, 04-082, 04-083 and 04-085.

[edit on 22-2-2007 by WestPoint23]



posted on Feb, 23 2007 @ 01:36 AM
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So visiting AF pilots flew in Red sqns??
I wonder what benefit would the RAAF derive from their pilots chalking up hours on a F-15 airframe.
Maybe USN Hornets would be a better alternative?
I remember that the USAF invited various AFs to try out the F-86 just before it was retired, but then this is not the case for the F-15.
Why are RAAF pilots flying USAF F-15s?
Or have I got it all wrong?

Also it seems that the 'merge' everyone says the F-22 intentionally avoids using BVR standoff weapons, actually happened here..
Was it a forced intentional merge? Or did the Reds(RAAF Reds?) manage to merge in WVR before getting picked off at BVR?
Interesting points wstpt.. and they raise even more interesting Qs



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 09:16 AM
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Originally posted by Daedalus3
So visiting AF pilots flew in Red sqns??


No, the USAF, and US military in general, have several exchange programs with close allies. The RAAF pilot was an exchange pilot that just happens to fly for the 65th Aggressor Squadron, I suppose in return there is a USAF pilot flying an RAAF aircraft somewhere. Another example would be the Brit who is currently flying an F-22 for the 27th FS, he is a full time member of that squadron, again in return there is a USAF pilot flying the Typhoon for the UK.


Originally posted by Daedalus3
Why are RAAF pilots flying USAF F-15s?


See above.


Originally posted by Daedalus3
Or have I got it all wrong?


Pretty much.


Originally posted by Daedalus3
Also it seems that the 'merge' everyone says the F-22 intentionally avoids using BVR standoff weapons, actually happened here.


Well, if we look at Northern Edge, where you had AESA Super Hornets and F-15's as aggressors the F-22 only chose to go WVR for three of its 144 kills, two with Sidewinders and one with a Cannon, in all three cases it was undetected until after the fact. My guess is they purposely chose to go to the merge in order to do some ACM, maybe it was scripted that way. The F-22's have flown against the 65th at Nellis before and they just killed them in BVR with ease, so who knows.



posted on Feb, 24 2007 @ 11:41 AM
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Well then I haven't got it wrong; foreign AF pilots are flying planes that would never be operational in their national Air Forces..
Pretty much what I was perplexed about..
I was confused behind the actual reasons for the same and not so much whether it was actually happening or not.



posted on Feb, 25 2007 @ 02:16 PM
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Weapons systems to counter the Raptor's electronic invisibility will soon be made, and deployed within this decade. The only thing the Raptor will be good for is engaging third world jets and remaining unharmed (which I think is the plan considering foreign policy
).



posted on Feb, 25 2007 @ 02:20 PM
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Yeah ok. Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Even without stealth the Raptor is still currently the best BVR fighter in the sky and can challenge anything WVR.

[edit on 25-2-2007 by BlackWidow23]



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