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Atheist: see Psalm 14:1

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posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 09:48 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
jj, math is improvable because it is purely abstract product of our mind that ends up having practical applications, so that little comparison fails


Exactly my point. As I stand here, holding 2 straws in one hand, 2 in the other, and count them, 1, 2, 3, 4, and state, "4 straws", you continue to insist there are only 3, though the 4th is in full view. The 4th is not there because you have decided there can only be 3, and no amount of evidence will convince you otherwise. Anything beyond that third must be false.

You know, kind of like the Catholic church insisting the Sun rotated around the Earth, though all evidence (including scripture) pointed to the opposite taking place.




posted on Feb, 18 2007 @ 10:33 PM
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jj, your analogy fails because math isn't concrete...


anyway
we're here to discuss perceptions of atheists and Psalm 14:1



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 04:22 AM
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I am curious, madness. You haven't really answered my question. Exactly how would one go about proving the existence of a deity, an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc, etc, one at that? In addition to that, if one takes such basic logic such as the math of 2+2 to be inconcrete, by what standards of investigation should the proof of God be carried out?



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 09:17 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
jj, your analogy fails because math isn't concrete...


For your sake, I really hope you never get audited. Most rational people, let along IRS employees, are of the opinion that 2 + 2 = 4, and expect you to pay taxes on that foundation...


anyway
we're here to discuss perceptions of atheists and Psalm 14:1


And so we are, and I have to concur with Babloyi's question. If nothing can be proven (As Roger Bacon said, "If in other sciences we should arrive at certainty without doubt and truth without error, it behooves us to place the foundations of knowledge in mathematics."), how can you, believing that, state anything as fact without proving to the world you are a hypocrite?



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 11:10 AM
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Originally posted by babloyi
I am curious, madness. You haven't really answered my question. Exactly how would one go about proving the existence of a deity, an omnipotent, omnipresent, omniscient, etc, etc, one at that?


no clue



In addition to that, if one takes such basic logic such as the math of 2+2 to be inconcrete,


it's inconcrete because you're creating a set of fabricated postulates, change the postulates and you change everything
math is nothing more than a language



by what standards of investigation should the proof of God be carried out?


all i have to say is any test to prove the existence of ANY deity, not just the judaeo-christian god, would have to be reproducable and that any other possible reasonable explainations would have to be ruled out



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 11:17 AM
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Originally posted by junglejake
For your sake, I really hope you never get audited. Most rational people, let along IRS employees, are of the opinion that 2 + 2 = 4, and expect you to pay taxes on that foundation...


2+2=4 i'll agree with
but it's not scientific or concrete
IT'S ABSTRACTED FROM POSTULATES




And so we are, and I have to concur with Babloyi's question. If nothing can be proven (As Roger Bacon said, "If in other sciences we should arrive at certainty without doubt and truth without error, it behooves us to place the foundations of knowledge in mathematics."), how can you, believing that, state anything as fact without proving to the world you are a hypocrite?


well, i tend to not state anything as facts
i state them as conclusions derived from information and logic...

but JJ, do you honestly agree with:


The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

?

do you think that all atheists are corrupt?
do you think that they have all done abomniable works?
do you think that they haven't done any good?



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 11:41 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
well, i tend to not state anything as facts


And that's a fact!


And yes, yes and yes. Allow me to explain, for what it's worth.

Corrupt? Aye, athiests have been corrupted. When Truth exists, and that Truth has been skewed and twisted in such a way as to turn it into an abomination of what the reality is, it has been corrupted. Now, a foundational principle of the Bible is that there is a personal, living God who cares about you and wants to be known by you. An athiest often states that if God does "x", they'll believe. You have demonstrated through this conversation and the one on Jesus's existence that that is not the case. Plus, the concept of order has been corrupted. God is not a magician at your beck and call to do whatever you whim.

Have athiests done abominable acts? Oh yes. WordReference.com defines abominable as "exceptionally bad or displeasing". When God, the ruler of the universe, the guy who sets all the rules, who determines what is good and what is not, says do this one thing, love the Lord your God with all your heart, and you say, "not a chance, you don't even exist" (as has become cliché, the definition of pure hatred is not loathing for someone, but complete indifference), you have committed an abominable act in God's eyes.

Finally, have you done no good? What is good? According to scripture, good is the will of God. We have etablished that athiests have shattered God's primary directive for us. They are out of His will, incapable of hearing His direction for their lives because they have chosen to ignore His very existence, let along His will for their lives. So no, so long at an athiest refuses God, they can do no good.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 11:30 PM
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So what, its the Bible, are you surprised by such a statement? The Bible, hell many holy books are full of things like that. It does not surprise to me.

I'm just agnostic, btw. Just thought I'd point that out.

[edit on 2/19/2007 by Kacen]



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 12:43 AM
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Originally posted by RedDragon

B/c you don't follow the scripture (you're not technically "Christian"). It clearly says in some places that ahteists are both fools and evil.


Well, I try to keep in mind that the some things in the bible were written by man and not dictated by God. It's not my place to decide that madness is evil or a fool. He is a fellow human being and one that its my christian obligation to treat with dignity, respect, and goodwill.

If he chose to accept the Gospel and become a christian, I would welcome him into the fold as a brother. If not, I would treat him no differently.

The only thing that annoys me is when when people tell me the very same thing for being a christian, so I certainly wouldnt do that to others.

I tend to agree that Christ freed us from certain things that was in the old law. I always remember Christ's highest law, "love thy neighbor."


Edn

posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 02:15 AM
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XphilesPhan everything in the bible was written by man, written in mans view, then altered to suit the needs of the church to keep there followers and subsequently there power. I'm not particularly bothered if someone believes in a god I just don't understand how people can believe and follow fabricated nonsense to be the word of god when its plainly obvious it cant be.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 04:11 PM
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Madness, I have stated it once and I will state it again.... Things of a spiritual nature, God,spirit, whatever, is not scientifically proveable. Science deals with the empirical. Spiritual issues are not empirical...

Any spiritual belief is just that, a belief. You choose not to believe in a God, that is your choice... To ask for proof that there is a God is not really fair.. God is a spiritual entity...therefore, his existence is a matter of faith and belief. Either you have faith that there is a God, or you don't.



[edit on 20-2-2007 by SpeakerofTruth]



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 05:30 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
... i would just need any sort of test that can be reproduced with the same results that would conclusively show the existence of ANY deity...


If you are shooting holes in "2+2=4" then, frankly, I don't believe you really want to see anything.

I know that's already been stated several times on this thread...but it's probably worth repeating.

You will probably never acknowledge God for the same reason that I will never be a fan of the Denver Broncos: I've told everyone I know that I hate the Broncos and it would suck to go back on my word now.

Oh yeah, and to this:


Originally posted by RedDragon
No science we have points torwards any evidence of God and most science we do have points negatively torwards the existence of God.


I just made that sound when you let a big snotty snort come out of your nose because you read something and didn't have time to open your mouth before you laughed.

I don't know how to spell that sound, so I can't really respond to the statement you made. Here's a quote though, that kind of sums up how I feel:



"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."
Albert Einstein


Now I don't know who this "Einstein" character was...probably some Catholic priest who totally hated science and has no credibility...but I think he's right on the money.

Serious.



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 05:56 PM
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Originally posted by Essedarius
If you are shooting holes in "2+2=4" then, frankly, I don't believe you really want to see anything.


i'm just stating that math is abstract and improvable outside of a set of postulates....
i'm not saying that 2+2 doesn't = 4
i'm saying that proving 2+2=4 is nothing like proving the existence of god scientifically



You will probably never acknowledge God for the same reason that I will never be a fan of the Denver Broncos: I've told everyone I know that I hate the Broncos and it would suck to go back on my word now.


that is a common attack against atheists that i hear all the time
i regularly acknowledge when i'm wrong
hell, that's the nature of scientific thought that i love the most





"It would be possible to describe everything scientifically, but it would make no sense; it would be without meaning, as if you described a Beethoven symphony as a variation of wave pressure."
Albert Einstein



describing something and proving something exists are 2 completely different things

now, for some reason people keep harping on all these things completely unrelated to Psalm 14:1
why?
this is supposed to be a discussion on the interpretation of a passage of scripture and how it effects the perception of atheists in our society
not some sort of "let's attack atheistic belief" thread

why did you have to drag that into this thread people?



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 06:05 PM
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1 Attack on the Bible

+

1 Athiest

=

1 Attack on an Athiest



Now I know that the above may be an unprovable postulatory blahblahblah...but you really have to stop picking fights then acting all surprised and pissed when your threads turn into "drill the atheist" contests.

If I start a thread called "ATHEISTS ARE MEATHEADS", do you think my religious affiliation will be brought up and attacked in that thread?
OF COURSE IT WILL.

You're an intelligent dude, madness...but for a scientist you seem to have a fleeting grasp of action and reaction.

If you don't want a fight, don't throw a punch.


[Edit for spelling...]

[edit on 20-2-2007 by Essedarius]



posted on Feb, 20 2007 @ 11:53 PM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
jj, your analogy fails because math isn't concrete...


anyway
we're here to discuss perceptions of atheists and Psalm 14:1

With all due respect, you sir, are debating something that shouldn't be debated.
The bible was written by human beings attempting to control people, so of course they wanted to inspire negativity towards atheists. They also wanted to inspire fear in those who would doubt the "truth" of religion. So if you wouldn't believe in a jealous omnipotent asshat in the sky that would torture you eternally like a gitmo detainee for not believing, at least you would be afraid of exile from your social group for admitting your disbelief.
If there is a spiritual reality, and that's a big IF, then your beliefs regarding that reality would have the least affect on your ultimate fate in the universe.



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 12:23 AM
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Originally posted by Sunsetspawn
With all due respect, you sir, are debating something that shouldn't be debated.
The bible was written by human beings attempting to control people, so of course they wanted to inspire negativity towards atheists. They also wanted to inspire fear in those who would doubt the "truth" of religion. So if you wouldn't believe in a jealous omnipotent asshat in the sky that would torture you eternally like a gitmo detainee for not believing, at least you would be afraid of exile from your social group for admitting your disbelief.
If there is a spiritual reality, and that's a big IF, then your beliefs regarding that reality would have the least affect on your ultimate fate in the universe.


well, i understand your position entirely

however, many christians are decent tolerant folk that don't really have any overt problem with atheists
i want to know how they reconcile that with this particular passage

though i know that there are many christians who pretend to be tolerant of atheists when they are in the company of atheists

and there are also quite a few that show outright overt intolerance towards them

i just want to see how the ones that i'd see as more rational look at this passage



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 02:25 AM
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Originally posted by madnessinmysoul
however, many Christians are decent tolerant folk that don't really have any overt problem with atheists
i want to know how they reconcile that with this particular passage

I think for the most part I`m fairly tolerant and hadn`t remembered reading that passage before madness.


Psalm 14:1
The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that doeth good.

Of coarse this passage would be viewed very negatively by someone who thinks God is bunk and the reverse from Gods point of view that passage is totally correct.

If a believer was to read such comments against them in atheists texts or even so called Satanic texts,I doubt for the most part they would be as surprised as you are.

From Gods perspective, being a believer is the beginning of good to ones self,therefore no works beforehand were of any good,when its about Gods work.


though i know that there are many Christians who pretend to be tolerant of atheists when they are in the company of atheists

Puts hand up for this as well,in some circumstances I have had to tolerate atheists,but then I`ve had to tolerate believers as well and they have had to tolerate me.I know I`m not alone either.

Have you pretended to tolerate believers at any time? or even atheists for that matter.


i just want to see how the ones that i'd see as more rational look at this passage

I`m confused here,my take was that atheists thought believers were delusional and definitely not rational to any degree,whilst believing in God?

Maybe it would have been better then to u2u the ones you wanted an answer from,rather than expecting they would see this and answer?



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 04:01 PM
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Originally posted by gps777


i just want to see how the ones that i'd see as more rational look at this passage

I`m confused here,my take was that atheists thought believers were delusional and definitely not rational to any degree,whilst believing in God?


well, i did say more, and atheists don't think that theists are completely irrational and delusional
just in 1 particular aspect of their lives they have some level of irrationality and delusionality



Maybe it would have been better then to u2u the ones you wanted an answer from,rather than expecting they would see this and answer?


maybe
however, it's sometimes more fun to add an element of the unknown to a conversation



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 09:35 PM
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Originally posted by runetang
The Psalms do not apply to Christianity. Their author, King David, was not a Christian.

LEVITICUS does not apply to Christianity.

THE LAWS OF MOSES do not apply to Christianity.

The New Testament applies to Christianity.

The most important part of the Jewish Tanakh that applies to Christianity is the ten commandments, as well as the story of creation, the flood, sodom & gomorrah, and thats about it, save a few bits here and there.

Don't get the religions twisted.

[edit on 2/18/2007 by runetang]


So wait...you can freely pick and choose which aspects apply to your faith and which do not?

Some things are in and some others are out? Why? I am curious as to why you say this is how it goes.



posted on Feb, 21 2007 @ 10:23 PM
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I remember in church the four words that bothered me the most were "now lets turn to" I don't know about anyone else but our preacher liked to skip all around the book to make a particular case for a certain aspect the word of god. I don't know of many books that were written with the practice of flipping ten pages grabbing a paragraph, then going forward another 100 grabbing another paragraph, and going back 27 pages and getting another in mind.:shk:

It concerns me that a preacher can take things out of context in that manner and %70 of the congregation (a rather conservative figure), swallows it whole. Has anyone ever been to church where they start at the beginning and take little by little until they reach the end without jumping around? In that very same way though the bible was put together by people who did that very thing, Grabbed from here, there, omitted this, accepted that. And more so people have made it worse by poor comprehension of the "native tongue".

I personally feel as though this is not an assault on atheists, #1 the whole story has to be read and not only one part. #2 If you go HERE you will notice in the footnotes "The Hebrew words rendered fool in Psalms denote one who is morally deficient." I do not feel that I am "morally deficient" Thats not to say that some don't apply it to atheists, just that its not an assault when interpreted the way it was made to be.

Also I thought this was an interesting page. You can clearly see the lack of interpretation is quite evident. As an atheist I do not feel assaulted by that particular verse, only the people who intemperate it the wrong way or worse take it the right way sometimes, the wrong way sometimes depending on what suits their agenda.

I hope I have kept with the initial discussion of this post before it went astray madness

[edit on 21-2-2007 by shizzle5150]



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