So what exactly is "Space" comprised of ?

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
Tom,

I'll try and get to some of the details of your post but I'd like to keep things as simple as possible so most poeple can understand the mystery I'm trying to elaborate on .. and it is a mystery, no matter how much science you know or try and throw at it.

Lots of information out there but I'll post this one for now.

science.howstuffworks.com...

But most metals have electrons that can detach from their atoms and move around. These are called free electrons. Gold, silver, copper, aluminum, iron, etc., all have free electrons. The loose electrons make it easy for electricity to flow through these materials, so they are known as electrical conductors. They conduct electricity. -The MOVING ELECTRONS TRANSMIT -electrical energy- from one point to another.

Top of the search list so most poeple probably have seen this just like me.

Moving electrons ONLY trasmit electrical energy *from one point to another*


The fact that I'm punctuating here is that moving electrons (whether they wiggle, or move around randomly.. really is irrelavent in this case) and electrical energy are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Without free electrons, otherwise knows as the electron sea or "electron foam" in conductors, *electrical energy/waves* CAN'T propagate.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It's the WAVE I'm focusing on here. What is it exactly? What is the difference between an electrical 'wave' and a NON electrical 'wave'?

Alot of people I talk to that are somewhat educated believe that electricity is the 'flow of electrons'. This is wrong as I stated earlier.. Free moving electrons in a conductor merely provide the medium for the electrical energy to -flow- THROUGH.


Unless you can mechanically explain beyond the shadow of a doubt what causes the electrical wave to require a 'charge' to propagate versus a non electrical wave needing only 'matter' you are only spinning your wheel.

Last time I checked, no one (at least in mainstream dogmatic science) is able to explain this any more than they can explain mechanically how gravity really works aside from explaining it's effects.

No offense.. I'm glad we have knowledgeable educated people who know all the math and science and understand how things work "inside the box" but I'm more interested and focused on what's outside of it.


Einstein did a pretty good job illustrating that matter was made out of "energy/nothing" but I ask again.. What is energy exactly? We know it exists, we know that it can exert a force on 'something'.. but what is it? It's made of NOTHING but yet it can have different properties? One type of "nothing" requiring a 'charge' to propagate through while another type of "nothing" can move through water?

Then we get to gravity.. the ultimate nothing.

Rumor has it Einstein had made the connection between electricy and gravity by actually finishing his unified field theory. Who knows but it's all still a mystery, at least to me.






[edit on 25-2-2007 by ViewFromTheStars]

Um...that's great. Do you even know how a battery works? It's a redox reaction.

en.wikipedia.org...

en.wikipedia.org...

Electrons move from one pole to another. How else would you explain the change in compounds?

ViewFromTheStars:

Well, I'm only an electrical engineer so I can only explain what I was taught in school getting that Masters.

At any rate, what is the definition of electrical power? The flow of electrons through a load multiplied by the electrical potential across the load.

The power source puts a potential across the load. That potential causes a bias in the thermal motion of electrons in the conductor. Those electrons move through the load. 6.24E18 electrons passing a point in a conductor in one second is an Ampere of current. Current times potential = Watts of power, and Bob's your uncle.

No "waves" for DC. Just a potential. Unless you want to decompose turning on the power source as an impulse function or something.

Like I say, that's the easy way of looking at it. You want to get into more complex stuff, you have to start ringing in Maxwell, Heaviside, Poynting and the gang. Most of that deals with time-varying fields. It's also way past what I can explain without math that maybe all but one other ATSer would understand.

I'm not understanding exactly how you're trying to invoke "wave" here except as maybe a random new-agey sort of term, because I don't think you're using it in the physics or engineering sense.

Electrical energy is well defined. One coulomb of charge with a Volt of potential difference to another point can convey one Joule of energy.

Now that we've gotten THAT out of the way, let's look at your 'wave'. I *think* you're asking about EM waves? That isn't the same as electrical energy in a conductor, exactly. Are you confused as to how an EM wave can propagate in free space where there are no free electrons?

And maybe before you go exploring "outside the box" you should have a grasp on what's inside. I suggest you do like the rest of us and spend about 5 years picking up four semesters of calculus, a couple of DE, tensors, linear algebra and two or three semesters of basic field theory. It's all nice to go "outside the box" but when you can't even define what the box is you won't make a lot of progress. If you're having to go to wikipedia to find out what the definition of electrical energy is, you might not be equipped. You're not going to be able to read the Cliff's notes and then go read Bohm for understanding.

Dear Tom,

I love you.

This has turned out to be very conversational thread, kind of jump's away from the original topic of the 'Universal' inquirie, but very good argumentatively intriguing. Here is some more facts that are a little more updated for the coposition of the universe "At Hand".

Five Easy Stats
How old is the universe? What is it made of? For the first time, scientists have clarity.

13.7 billion years: Age of the universe
200 million years: Interval betwen the Big Bang and the appearance of the first stars
4%: Proportion of the universe that is ordinary matter
23%: Proportion that is dark matter
73%: Proportion that is dark energy

Seem's there are alot of right's thus far in this thread, they just seem to be slightly broken away from one another.

Source:

www.infoplease.com...

Fascinating article, take the time to read it it, it is very short and quite informative

The Sun contains 99.85% of all the matter in the Solar System. The planets, which condensed out of the same disk of material that formed the Sun, contain only 0.135% of the mass of the solar system. Jupiter contains more than twice the matter of all the other planets combined. Satellites of the planets, comets, asteroids, meteoroids, and the interplanetary medium constitute the remaining 0.015%. The following table is a list of the mass distribution within our Solar System.
Sun: 99.85%
Planets: 0.135%
Comets: 0.01% ?
Satellites: 0.00005%
Minor Planets: 0.0000002% ?
Meteoroids: 0.0000001% ?
Interplanetary Medium: 0.0000001% ?

The following html will describe in very great detail the configuration's too almost any question's, I hope you will be able to utilize the information for a better perspective of the varience's from our solar system and the coposition of the universes aspect of this coposition.

Source:

www.solarviews.com...

Quite a bit of material to read, but if you are catagorically looking for a specific answer, you should find it here for our local solar system and it's coposition.."Happy reading."

Stars and Neurons that about sums it up.Oh and equilateral distances.



[edit on 26-2-2007 by menguard]

John Mike

Um...that's great. Do you even know how a battery works? It's a redox reaction.

I have some good knowledge on how batteries work but I'd like to focus on something else.

Tom Bedlam

At any rate, what is the definition of electrical power? The flow of electrons through a load multiplied by the electrical potential across the load.

This is the problem here.. Until we get past this I don't feel very inclined to pick through the other details of your post.

'flow' of electrons? Like I clearly stated earlier, the energy 'flowing through' a wire and the charges that 'moves about' allowing this electrical energy to move are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. So when you try and say that electrical power is the "flow" of electrons this is VERY deceptive. The electrons merely provide the charge.. NOT the energy.

Elaborate on this some more please from your perspective.

Also, I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence or education so please keep that in mind before you start belittling me or flaming.


Also, this should help clear things up. Awesome write up by someone I hope you have heard about:

amasci.com...

What are the misconceptions? Here is a list:

1. All electric currents are flows of electrons. Wrong.
2. "Electricity" is made of electrons, not protons. Nope.
3. Electrons are a kind of energy particle. Wrong.
4. "Electricity" carries zero mass because electrons have little mass. No.
5. Positive charge is really just a loss of electrons. Wrong.
6. Positive charge cannot flow. Totally wrong.
7. To create "static" charge, we move the electrons. Not always.

I especially like this part:

Below are a few examples of errors caused by the contradictory meanings.

* In AC electric circuits the charges wiggle back and forth, but the energy moves continuously forward. This is analogous to the way that sound waves move continuously forward through the air, while the air itself wiggles back and forth. But if we teach our kids that "electricity" is made of electrons, and "electricity" is also energy, then we make a serious error. We unwittingly teach them that the electricity in wires sits in one spot and wiggles, but at the same time the electricity moves forward rapidly. Garbage! It's like saying that sound and air are the same thing. And the error is directly traceable to the bogus "electricity" concept.

* Another: when a battery lights a lightbulb, we explain that the path of electricity is into, then through, then back out of the bulb, and that no electricity is used up. Then we say that electricity flows from the battery to bulb and is totally converted to light. Which one is correct? Does the bulb consume the electricity to make light? Or, does all the electricity flow through the lightbulb filament and back out again through the second wire? As far as students are concerned, we've just told them that it does both things at the same time!

* Another: There are two forms of electricity, positive electricity and negative. NO, the two forms of electricity are static and current. NO, there are many forms of electricity: triboelectricity, bioelectricity, myoelectricity, piezoelectricity. NO, electricity is a single form of energy called Electromagnetism. NO, electricity is power, it is watts, not energy.

Which is right? All and none, because the word "electricity" has multiple contradictory definitions. None of the above statements are right because there is no "electricity" which is charge, energy, power, and class of phenomena all at once. And all the meanings are also correct, because the word "electricity" is commonly used to name all these different things, and these definitions appear in the dictionary. Who are we to argue with The Dictionary? Yet we SHOULD distrust the dictionary, since it just innocently records the words which people use. If people always use the word "electricity" in misleading and contradictory ways, then dictionaries will contain contradictory definitions.

Long but good read.

Add:

John Mike, I'd like to punctuate this one for you since you brought batteries up earlier:

"* Another: when a battery lights a lightbulb, we explain that the path of electricity is into, then through, then back out of the bulb, and that no electricity is used up. Then we say that electricity flows from the battery to bulb and is totally converted to light. Which one is correct? Does the bulb consume the electricity to make light? Or, does all the electricity flow through the lightbulb filament and back out again through the second wire? As far as students are concerned, we've just told them that it does both things at the same time!"


Chew on that one for a while and let me know what you think.


Also,

And maybe before you go exploring "outside the box" you should have a grasp on what's inside.

Maybe you should ask yourself that question.



Edit: Add root directory.

amasci.com...

[edit on 27-2-2007 by ViewFromTheStars]

Almost forgot, let me clarify what I meant earlier when i said 'wave'.. I'm was talking about energy.

And I say again.. Energy and charge are NOT the same thing.

According to a new and highly respectable physical theory known as quantum loop gravitation, everything in the universe is the result of tiny distortions in spacetime itself. I don't pretend to understand the theory very well, but one of our members who is a real physicist has authored a brilliant thread on it. If you want your mind well and truly expanded, there isn't a better place to go on ATS -- in my humble opinion.

I've been following that thread for a while now but have not mustered up a post yet but it is a fascinating theory. When you say 'what's made of space' that's exactly what I'm trying to say here. The 'empty' space between ponderable matter is actually an incredible energy field "at rest". Then you have to ask yourself what exactly is energy? Anyways.. I'll continue reading on BRAIDS.

Moral of the story? You may know alot about 'electricity' but there is still ALOT you -don't- know and it's the stuff we don't understand that fascinates me the most.

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars
[

Tom Bedlam

At any rate, what is the definition of electrical power? The flow of electrons through a load multiplied by the electrical potential across the load.

This is the problem here.. Until we get past this I don't feel very inclined to pick through the other details of your post.

'flow' of electrons? Like I clearly stated earlier, the energy 'flowing through' a wire and the charges that 'moves about' allowing this electrical energy to move are TWO DIFFERENT THINGS. So when you try and say that electrical power is the "flow" of electrons this is VERY deceptive. The electrons merely provide the charge.. NOT the energy.

Elaborate on this some more please from your perspective.

Also, I'm not trying to insult anyones intelligence or education so please keep that in mind before you start belittling me or flaming.

Some of the problem here is that you're not understanding what I'm saying, and you're changing the form of what you ask. When I answer you based on your last question, you pull out this "misconception" list. In some circumstances, he's right, but not in all, and for what you asked last my answer is correct. Let's review:

First you said:

"The electrons with their charge merely 'wiggle' back and forth allowing the 'energy wave' to 'travel' through them. (Much like a wave travelling through water) The electrons with their corresponding charge merely give the medium for the wave to travel through. After thinking about that and studing how batteries work it will REALLY blow your mind. We know how batteries 'store' a charge but how do they really store the actual energy that comes out of them? I'll stop there but rebuttals are welcome and I do have an open mind."

In this you are incorrect. The electrons are not "wiggling", there is no "energy wave". The term "charge" when applied to a battery is not the same term "charge" when describing the property of a charged particle.

My reply:

"But there's no "energy wave" that makes electrons wiggle. A somewhat simple way to look at it is that the power source puts a field along the conductor. The field biases, slightly, the thermal noise in the electron gas in the conductor. That is, the electrons in the conductor are zipping around randomly. The electric field from the power source makes them go one way more than another, slightly, so there is a net flow down the conductor."

This is correct, in the terms for which I have stated it, which is for a conductor (wire).

You posted:

"What is the difference between the 'wave' travelling through water and the 'wave' travelling through the electrons and their charges in a wire?"

which pretty well establishes that we're talking about wires, then replied to me:

"Without free electrons, otherwise knows as the electron sea or "electron foam" in conductors, *electrical energy/waves* CAN'T propagate.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It's the WAVE I'm focusing on here. What is it exactly? What is the difference between an electrical 'wave' and a NON electrical 'wave'?

Alot of people I talk to that are somewhat educated believe that electricity is the 'flow of electrons'. This is wrong as I stated earlier.. Free moving electrons in a conductor merely provide the medium for the electrical energy to -flow- THROUGH."

Again puzzling to me, because I'm not sure what your point is. Electrical energy is defined as an amount of charge passing through a potential difference. That is the definition. J = CV. You get one Joule of energy when one Coulomb of charge moves through a potential difference of one Volt. That is how electrical energy is defined.


Now, you used this "misconception" site to rebut me. But I don't think you understand the nature of the rebuttal. Let's look at that. He says:

"Electric currents are not just flows of electrons, they are flows of electric charge. Both protons and eletrons posses exactly the same amount of 'electricity.' If either the protons *OR* the electrons flow, that flow is an electric current. In salt water, in flourescent bulbs, and in battery acid, atoms with extra protons can flow along, and this flow is a genuine electric current. And in fuel cell membranes and in solid ice, electric current is entirely made of flowing protons."

Now, note that he's not saying that electric current in a wire is NOT a flow of electrons. He's saying that in other media, other charge carriers may be involved. That, I believe, is where you're getting confused wanting it to be some other answer. But what he's saying is that minority and ionic carriers are also charge carriers and participate in the current flow.

That is correct in P-doped semiconductors, and in conductive liquids where you get ion flows as well as current flows, or in a plasma where you might have free electrons as well as ionized gases, as he states, and as I mentioned very early: "Also, when the ions are separated as they are at very low density, you get ion propagation but not conduction when you put an electric field across it." But it is NOT the case in a wire.

And at any rate, there is none of this "wave" thing you keep talking about.

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars

science.howstuffworks.com...

But most metals have electrons that can detach from their atoms and move around. These are called free electrons. Gold, silver, copper, aluminum, iron, etc., all have free electrons. The loose electrons make it easy for electricity to flow through these materials, so they are known as electrical conductors. They conduct electricity. -The MOVING ELECTRONS TRANSMIT -electrical energy- from one point to another.

Top of the search list so most poeple probably have seen this just like me.

Moving electrons ONLY trasmit electrical energy *from one point to another*


The fact that I'm punctuating here is that moving electrons (whether they wiggle, or move around randomly.. really is irrelavent in this case) and electrical energy are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Without free electrons, otherwise knows as the electron sea or "electron foam" in conductors, *electrical energy/waves* CAN'T propagate.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It's the WAVE I'm focusing on here. What is it exactly? What is the difference between an electrical 'wave' and a NON electrical 'wave'?

Alot of people I talk to that are somewhat educated believe that electricity is the 'flow of electrons'. This is wrong as I stated earlier.. Free moving electrons in a conductor merely provide the medium for the electrical energy to -flow- THROUGH.

I only studied Gen. Physics at the Undergraduate level, but I remember covering current, where the potential difference in a (semi-) conductor produced a flow of electrons.

A few references:

The following is on current, and describes in one area what happens when a DC current is placed on a conductor. Where it states the electrons are the current carrier.

en.wikipedia.org...

Drift velocity is the ave. speed of e-, or other free particle.

en.wikipedia.org...

The following article explains the confusion of EM waves and electricity.

en.wikipedia.org...

Originally posted by ViewFromTheStars

science.howstuffworks.com...

But most metals have electrons that can detach from their atoms and move around. These are called free electrons. Gold, silver, copper, aluminum, iron, etc., all have free electrons. The loose electrons make it easy for electricity to flow through these materials, so they are known as electrical conductors. They conduct electricity. -The MOVING ELECTRONS TRANSMIT -electrical energy- from one point to another.

Top of the search list so most poeple probably have seen this just like me.

Moving electrons ONLY trasmit electrical energy *from one point to another*


The fact that I'm punctuating here is that moving electrons (whether they wiggle, or move around randomly.. really is irrelavent in this case) and electrical energy are TWO ENTIRELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Without free electrons, otherwise knows as the electron sea or "electron foam" in conductors, *electrical energy/waves* CAN'T propagate.

Do you understand what I'm saying? It's the WAVE I'm focusing on here. What is it exactly? What is the difference between an electrical 'wave' and a NON electrical 'wave'?

Alot of people I talk to that are somewhat educated believe that electricity is the 'flow of electrons'. This is wrong as I stated earlier.. Free moving electrons in a conductor merely provide the medium for the electrical energy to -flow- THROUGH.

I only studied Gen. Physics at the Undergraduate level, but I remember covering current, where the potential difference in a (semi-) conductor produced a flow of electrons.

A few references:

The following is on current, and describes in one area what happens when a DC current is placed on a conductor. Where it states the electrons are the current carrier.

en.wikipedia.org...

Drift velocity is the ave. speed of e-, or other free particle.

en.wikipedia.org...

The following article explains the confusion of EM waves and electricity.

en.wikipedia.org...