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The greatest injustice/conspiracy in the world - Oppression of Women

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posted on Feb, 16 2007 @ 10:39 AM
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First off let me give you a little background as to why I am posting this thread...

My mother (a Free Will Baptist) has always been a highly religous Christian woman. She brought my sister and myself up in the church, but thankfully, she also taught us to think for ourselves. She did a wonderful job, and I couldn't ask for more. Her and my Father divorced in 1987. I was 7, my sister 1.

Recently, Mom has been telling me of issues going on at the church. The preacher seems to be pushing the issue of a woman's role as being the silent, "Do as your man says, and let the men run the world" role. What sparked the whole issue was the current debate as to wheter women can be ordained as ministers within the Free Will Baptist network.

The preacher has also made references in the past such as "behind every good woman is a good man" and "What is next? If we allow women to preach the word of God, then should we also allow Homosexuals?"....

Now, all of this really angered me. Well, at least more than I already am with the conservative Christian agenda. Yes, I know I wasn't there to hear the comments in person, but why should I not believe my own mother?

Since the beginning of time, Women have been the most persecuted people on the entire face of the Earth. Not only do all major religions pretty much teach the role of the woman to be lesser than that of a man, but also preach that women are nothing more than possessions.

My question is simple.... Why do you women allow this? How can anyone out there follow ANYONE that says that one is lesser than the other?

We are all equal, people. All equal to one. One species, part of one universe, part of one energy. We are supposed to love, yet we continue to divide the one into many.

Without woman, not a single one of us would be here. So, religous text says man was created first. Without woman, there would not have been anything past that.

I have been more than tempted to carry myself to church and give everyone a sermon of my own. Surely, it would be a shock and awe campaign, as it would be going against everything they had ever been taught. I am sure most women would also take offense, even though I'm practically fighting for them. If it doesn't follow the normalcy that they have been taught, people are afraid to challenge it.

Anyone who would challenge my idea out there, go ahead. To me, if you truly believe that as a man, you are superior to a woman, then you are a sexist. I don't care what God you follow, but sexism leads to separatism, and separatism is not holy.

No, I am not a bitter woman that many of you now see me as, but a man that sees the truth.

It doesn't matter if you are a woman or a man. Homosexual or Heterosexual. If anyone wants to teach love and compassion to anyone who wants to listen, then go for it. Why must we try to say who can and who cannot?

I guess this was more of a rant, but I do hope I have made someone out there think about it.

Have a good day!




posted on Feb, 16 2007 @ 11:02 AM
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Azazelus, THANK YOU and a big hug to you for stating what you did. The fact that you are a man writing this makes your words even more precious to me.
I wish more men thought like you do. I agree with every word you said. IMO, organized relilgion has done more to keep women down than any other institution. It was not always that way actually. Before Christianity, there were goddess religions. These religions believed that because women, and only women, could bring forth life, that women were sacred and to be cherished and respected. Shamans were often women and they had a big say in tribal affairs. Then Christianity came, Paul whom I always suspected of being a closet gay, but in my mind was also a confirmed misogynist) preached that women were inferior to men and that's where it all changed. For those who are aware, this is clearly a patriarchal society, one in which "traditionally feminine values" are disparaged.

In order to control any group of people, you must first demoralize them and then brainwash them into thinking that they are inferior, weak, disempowered, etc. It was done with the Black slaves here in the U.S. and it has been done to women for 2,000 years and more. And who preaches it the most? Right, churches, especially Christian churches. At this point, everyone, women including, are so brainwashed that they don't know their own history and they believe what the churches tell them, whether it's conscious or not. And what's really scary is that feminism has died off.

I believe there are some books you might enjoy, if you haven't already read them.
"The Beauty Myth" by Naomi Wolfe - discusses in detail how women are subjugated and disrespected in general in western society.

any other books by Naomi Wolfe.
"When God Was a Woman" by Merlin Stone

All are available used at Amazon.com.

In closing, I would say one more thing.
If you doubt that women are subjugated, consider this:
That women didn't get the vote until long after Blacks got the vote and you know what most white Americans thought about Blacks at the time. One could well interpret this as understanding that women are considered, here in the U.S. even, to be lower than Blacks.
(Hope that doesn't offend anyone - I'm not saying any group is inferior, just that much of society thinks this way.)



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 02:11 AM
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You have voted Azazelus for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have two more votes this month


excellent post. And as forestlady said, coming from a man makes it all the more important.
This is one thing i always felt uncomfortable with, in my religion. I am a muslim and even though the Quran DOES say there is equality between the sexes, i always wondered why it is addressed to man only. There is a surah called "The Women", and it just seems like we were an afterthought there.
It does make me incredibly sad that women and girls almost everywhere in this world are treated as inferior every day of their lives.
I have one daughter and 3 sons and even though i make sure that each does their fair share of stuff around here, i still feel she is being taught by society or by her fathers view of religion, that she is second to her brothers.
One example, came when we were all at her fathers house, and the azaan came on the tv (call to prayer). My ex said to her, cover your head.
For the first time, i had the nerve to ask....why?
He said, out of respect.
I replied, then tell your sons to cover their heads too. And i took the cover off her head (its not something i believe in anyway)
He could not, and neither could his brother, come up with a valid explanation as to why only SHE should do that.
Just one example of many. Its little things, but there are so many injustices going on around the world to little girls, and most of them are done in the name of religion.
Again, excellent post, thanks for bringing this up



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 02:59 PM
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It does offend Forest lady and most of what is posted just isnt true. It makes good politic it just isnt true.

I think many of us have too much time on our hands to think nice thoughts about how we would like things to be provided someone else takes the risk to make it happen for us. Sort of like a remote controller.

Azazelus ...I do not believe you like others are thinking this through past public education. This meaning television education...where our thought patters are predetermined for us by subtilty and seduction.

As I have stated many times...this makes for good politic but it just simply isnt true.

What you see so many doing today is sticking everything back in a time warp to make a point and infer that this is still going on today. It is not true.

What is often left out of this" time warp" philosophy is that conditions back in the time warp were no better for men than women. Men often lived shorter lives than women. Women died in childbirth more often than men but this has been greatly reduced today in western nations.

I have posted this before...and will post it here again..

The willingness of the male to work and turn over a great portion of his production to women and children is one of the greatest adaptations of all time. Even to the risk involved and to make himself expendable and disposable unto death. This is not a trait you generally find among women ..for the man. For the children yes..but not for the man.

What I am telling you Azaelus is that in our social structure the male is the most expendable and disposable commodity. Not the Female.
This is easily demonstrated by looking around you at the really big ticket items sold...cars ..homes , insurance policys. Washers, Dryers...etc etc. How many of these items are bought and paid for by women for the men?
And bought at great risk to the women as a career??

THis means that the male is the most disposable and expendable...no matter how much moneys he is making...or the risks involved in making these moneys. Watch how often in these posts like yours this is ever brought up.

Once again I post...Walk into any store...department stores...and look at what kiosk is right out front by the main entrance. It will be a combination of or one of the two..cosmetics or jewelry. This is so at the local Costco..and other stores of this ilk. Same with the local wally world.
In the malls it is usually some form of cosmetics.

Why is this?? Because women are a downtrodden, opressed, enslaved minority?? Or is it because of a tradition in this social structure of Male to female giving??

Women dont make as much moneys as do men correct? This is the standard mantra..promoted and pushed to insure the proper mindset for more "Victimization." Correct??

So who is paying for all this stuff if the women dont work for or earn as much moneys as men.

The floor space in any given depatrment store is seven to one female verses male. Seven to one...think about what this means economically, which by the way also means politically.

This is not a sign of a "victimized " group of people ..especially in the western nations that such a huge portion of market share is devoted to women and womens concerns.

But they dont make as much money as do men..correct...they are victims correct??? So who is paying for this stuff at seven to one?? Not the women correct???

Who puts their names on the dotted lines for homes and automobiles...

Go to any car sales person and ask who is the determiner of what kinds of automobiles are sold in this country ..the male or female?
It is the female..by far.!! How many females do you know who buy cars for men and then maintain them from their career earnings?? Big ticket items correct. How about homes and maintain them?? How about insurance policys so that the male is properly insured if the female dies first??

No matter what they say this is not a victim class of people...

What I am telling you and others here is that the male is paying for and financing his second class status in this system of economics, Religion, and politics..which have become one system today..by philosophy of concealment. Occult. Misdirection.

This is obvious by yours and others posts. I reinforce this by saying that only a man can be this naturally and inherently dumb ..because women are much smarter than this.

Do you honestly think that women who are running this show...or system are going to be willing to take the risks necessary daily to keep it running and expand ...for the men to come in first in like manner as is happening right now. YOu know ..buy big ticket items for the men from their career earnings and maintain them while the men complain about thier "victimization." Or will they simply make the same olde thing happen even at a faster rate?? Male expendability and disposability??

THe only thing women are going to do in the Churchs to change things with this view is make it into open sexuality...Pagan religions surrounding the sexual ritual. Dont believe me..go to any check out stand in any store and look at the magazine articles. Watch the titles in any book stores at the novels directed to women. IF you removed the sex and sexuality from these periodicles and books what substance do you actually have in them.
I mean real substance.?? What is left. Same thing with these daytime talk show so popular among so many women...for years now...take the sex and sexualy from them and what do you have left...of substance. Very little...very little.

What you are arguing for is the social roles being transfered across the board...to every facet of the social structure. I say the true nature of the social roles are hidden from most of us..occult..concealed. Not from the women ..but the men. The men in this country are some kind of stupid about this.

By the way..most church funcitions today are primarily run by women...The women have more time on their hands to do this in churchs..not the men. If the women run it all...what do you think is going to happen in the Churchs?? Is anyone doing this study already since women preachers??

Once again ..whenever I see these kinds of posts you are making Azazelus..I never see this view...only some veiled "victim dictum." I just stopped buying into it a long time ago.
It is not true. Just look around you at what is happening ..not on the surface but underneath where it really counts. The surface is all political social fluff..the reality is what is happening underneath.

Oh... and Forest Ladys point about Naomi Wolfe and "The Beauty Myth" is correct. This is however a drug many women are reluctant to give up on as it tends to act as a safety net in case real work or effort does not pay off...they can capitalize on beauty to increase their value in the marketplace against other women...so that they can trade this off for a better life provided by male expendability and disposability.
This often prevents women from learning real life skills and survivability..real value ..and substitutes real values and skills for beauty marketability. This is often called "High Maintenance." Are all women like this..no they are not..but it is more prevalent than ever made light of outside people like Naomi Wolfe.
The womens magazines are full of this stuff instead of how to increase real life skills. Why...because much of womens magazines and periodicals work in the implicit..not the explicit. What Naomi Wolfe did was make this flaw explicit. I give her great credit for this. The Beauty Myth is a two edged sword for women. It increases their marketability but also their dependence on a male and the male female ritual..which is the complaint of many women. They just dont tend to want to do the commitment levels to change or give up the possibility of the safety net...at risk to themselves.
REmember..Azazelus...a woman who can take care of herself ..or herself and her children is a woman who can come to a man for love only..the very thing most women complain is missing from their relationships. They do not ever think about maintenance costs for themselves and children killing the love off quickly while making the male more disposable and expendable. Think long and hard about what this means..socially, economically, and politically.
THey do not discuss how women take on more male tasks or views..giving him more time for love and romance..but only the male taking on more female roles and tasks. I have seen this over and over..in articles. Always implicit..never explicit. And always "victimization."

I dont buy into it.

There is a presidential election coming up. I will remind you and other readers ..how important the male vote is in this country....It isnt. In most of the big major presidential elections the question among commentators is what are the women doing with their vote..not the men. This is very telling. Women and minoritys ..what are they doing with their vote.
This is a prime indicator of male second class status in the political, ecomonic, social system in force in America.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 03:44 PM
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I don't see how anything that I posted isn't true. It's pretty obvious that women are rarely treated as equals with men.

I said nothing about men making the money and giving it to women, thus women control the world. Plain and simple, that is a load of crap.

What about divorced women then? Who gives them money that they work hard for and who feeds their children? Sure, an ex-husband must pay support, but that is because the chidren are his too.

I find your post rather egotistical and overall irrelevant to my thread. The only thing you mentioned that really belonged was the bit about women gaining power in the church. Even then, you make the assumption that women have a hidden agenda to turn it into Pagan rituals. It's funny, because Christianity, or any religion for that matter, all comes from a Paganistic background anyways.

I believe you wasted your time posting that long post. Because really, it has done nothing but prove my point even further....



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 04:30 PM
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Everyone is "oppressed" in this life by someone or something (social conventions). We all kind of have to follow the rules in order to keep things relatively status quo.

Most women are limited in their societal options because of a couple of basic things: 1) women are generally not as physically strong as men, and 2) women make choices (to have babies) that severely limit their ability to move outside their social expectations.

In another thread, I said that anyone can do whatever they want to in this life if they're willing to accept the consequences. That goes for women, too. Husband abusive? Leave the guy, or stab him when he sleeps. Not getting ahead enough in business? Work harder, or change businesses. As long as Oprah Winfrey is a billionaire, don't complain to me about how "women" can't succeed. (Note that she doesn't have a husband or kids.)

In any event, nobody, male or female, can expect anyone to "give" them greater opportunities or freedom or power just because they whine and complain a little. Those are things you have to take for yourself, usually as an individual, since most people, male and female, would rather take the path of least resistance.



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 04:42 PM
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Oh, I completely agree...but...my main point of the whole thread was that women haven't had a fair shot since the beginning, and that I don't understand why they stand by and do nothing....

Maybe because when they do, the true balance of power shows it's face....



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 04:49 PM
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I guess the whole women's place in the world was decided in the Garden of Eden from a christian perspective.



posted on Feb, 17 2007 @ 04:55 PM
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Condi Rice is a perfect example of what is being talked about.

This lady put her career ahead of having a husband and children. Then she is ridiculed for it.

But the same people will worship Hillary Clinton, a women who would be nothing without her husband.

I guess women can't win no matter which path they choose.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 01:30 AM
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First off RRConservative...intresting point about the difference In Condi and Hillary. Thanks for this

Once again..Azazelus..I disagree with your concept that women have not had a fair shot since the begining.

Once again..how many women do you know who are supporting and taking risks for the men in thier lives?? YOu know ..big ticket items while the men do their male thing at the womens expense.

Only a man can be dumb enough to do this as a career while women are preaching equality and inequality both. Women are far smarter than this.

About divorced women..think this through...how many government social programs are there out here to support a man??? Or a man and his children???

Not many Azazelus...the point here is that women have a option to go from the man as a bit tit...breast feeding...or in seperation and divorce...alimony and child support and then the option to go on the government breast in social programs. You see them every week in the grocery stores using this government plastic card now days.

There are no such programs for men. Many men with children find it very difficult to get on these programs if they have custody of their children or are widowed...not the women.

This is another example of male disposability and expendability..and women not being oppressed..but taken care of by a political system in place.

I will also remind you of this little known facet of this type of social program here in this city. The woman I am seeing is an apartment manager. She has fired many women who cannot do the job required of them in her office. Many of these women have found employment in a government or city job in social services. They are not savy enough to hold down a job in the private sector but can survive well on the government breast. I would have never known this is she would not have educated me to this history.


Answer the question Azazelus..How many women do you know who buy houses for men..cars...boats...motorcycles...and then pay to maintain them.

Since we are dismissing for convenience all disagreeing points of view..how many women do you know Azazelus..How many women do you know who marry down the economic ladder as a career?? You know a guy with less potential/money than them...a guy for whom they will have to take care of his high maintenance costs for thier lifetimes?? Do you know many?? I would really like a answer to this question..not dismissal.

I bring this up because no matter what you say about a "fair Shake" my point is that I dont know many who give a man a fair shake like this do you ??

This facet alone Azazelus is a clear indicator that women are not by and large intrested in a fair shake if they are mostly intrested in marrying up the economic ladder. By the way do you know why among women the "Brides " magazines are the thickest on the magazine stands? Think this through carefully.

I am talking Azazelus about the facts one sees here on the streets...you are talking politics. I am speaking of actual social roles in play...you are talking politics..social engineering....re engineering.

What I am telling you Azazelus is that there is alot of double talk going on here on this topic. It is fortunate for most women that many or even most of the men cannnot think past Hooters or the LA Lakers game. What a dumb bunch of men out here.

Correct... you said nothing about men making money and giving it to women..precisely my point in my long dissertation for which you are wont to dismiss..so I said it for you and the other readers on this thread.
You say nothing about the risks many men take to earn these moneys they are turning over to these women to spend according to thier discretion..so I say it for you and the other readers of this thread.

This too is a clear sign of women not being downtrodden and not being given a fair shake. They have more than a fair shake.

How do I know this ...because you cannot have it better than to have access to moneys and power you dont have to work for or take risks with your very life to get.


The known facts are ..Azazelus that women in this country often have huge access to two money sources...theirs if they work or thier mans and theirs if they have a man. Any person schooled in marketing trends can confirm this for you as well as can any automobile salesperson.

This once again is a clear indicator of how good women have it particularly in the western nations.

The injustice is that most men are so dumb that they are incapable of thinking this through at all and get played and put on the political string by posts like yours. I see women posting this stuff through all the time many on ATS/BTS..thinking that no one will challange them on their points.

You know Azazelus ..I recall a young woman on the relationship board on BTS complaining about the men now days being more intrested in hanging around the other guys playing with their toys, computers, video games, and drinking than paying attention to them. I thought about this awhile and asked her if she was buying these toys, video games, computers, and drink for these men?? If she was doing so she might have a legitimate complaint. If she was not I told her it was none of her buisness.
I never did get an answer from her...seems the conversation just broke down. Why do you suppose that is...could it be because she never expected to be challanged on her value system. That her value system was the only legitimate value system possible and socially accpetable???

Mind you now ..I have little use for video games, drinking, and hanging around with the guys. I actually like the company of women much better than a bunch of guys.
I just dont have much respect for this kind of whining when she is not putting anything at risk to keep these guys in thier goodies. Notice the key word here...RISK!!!!. Think this through carefully if you can.


I dont have much respect for these victimization women nor most of what passes for men now days...they are even dumber than the women.

They stand by and do nothing Azazelus because it is the easiest thing to do. Get a guy to do it for them if the career does not pan out. They get a safety net if they play their cards correctly. Do you see guys getting this option or safety net from women as a secondary career opportunity??

However..Azazelus .in fairness ..there are today alot of guys out here who are raised by mostly women..they think like women..have womens value systems and judgement patterns..they too are watchers not doers...They do alot of standing by and doing nothing. These women are often given to asking

"Where are all the real men??" They do have a point here.

So....Azazelus..how many women do you personally know who buy houses, cars, boats and other high priced risk goodies for men as a career?? Also if not why do you think this is so??

Answer please...this is very important to your oppression dogma!!

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 04:29 AM
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Originally posted by mazzroth
I guess the whole women's place in the world was decided in the Garden of Eden from a christian perspective.


Did you go to public school..public education?? By this I mean a television education???

I need you to explain to me the status of women in non Christian perspective nation...today and yesterday..say like in Thailand?? I think at one time it was called Siam.

How about in North Africa.

THe status of women today and yesterday in India??

How about China??

Get the point yet??

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 05:09 AM
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Then Christianity came, Paul whom I always suspected of being a closet gay, but in my mind was also a confirmed misogynist) preached that women were inferior to men and that's where it all changed. For those who are aware, this is clearly a patriarchal society, one in which "traditionally feminine values" are disparaged.


I get this same stuff from women when I sometimes go out. It gets very insulting till you realize it is the best that some can do. Women do hunt and gather men. The men are not really the hunter gatherers that many men deceive themselves into thinking they are. When I dont bite on the lines and frustration sets in .." are you Gay??" I am not biting or playing or responding correctly to the clue and cue...I must be Gay! He has to be ...how could he turn his nose up at this!!?? He must be Gay!!

Paul doesnt go along with the clue and cue of " of "traditional Femminine values" he must be gay.

By the way... I disagree with you that this is a Patriarchal Society. It is a Matriarchial society hidden as if it was a Patriarchial Society for political purposes.

A seven to one disparity in goods in the stores primarily directed to the females does not indicate a Patriarcial Society...especially since the standard mantra is that women or the females dont earn as much as men.
The women are getting over big time here since they dont earn as much as men but have access to goods and services at a seven to one ratio.

This understanding alone shoots holes in the Patriarchal Society and the victimization position.

We have to be educated in public schools to get so dumb we as a people dont understand what is so obviously in front of us daily.

This is not a Patriarichal society.It is a hidden Matriarchal society.

This was made clear to me some time back when I was in Home Depot and watching a man and his woman buying some furnishings for their home. The man was taking instruction and opinion from his woman. At the checkout stand later ..he was paying for it..not she. Hardly Patriarichal.
I have seen this very scenerio repeated over and over since..at Lowes too..especially at springtime when flowers and gardening take place. Just watch all the guys dutifully following thier women around and loading the heavy stuff into the cart or dolly..tons of the spring flowers...mulch etc etc..garden stone. Then the men get to pay for it. Then they get home and get to unload it and help put it in. Patriarichal....hardly. This is women giving directions to their men..hardly oppressed either.

Like I said to Azazelus...how many of these equal women are purchasing cars for thier men..homes, boats ...motorcycles..insurance policys..so that the men are protected financially if she dies first?? This would be equal too..equal risk. It would be earning and maintaining equality...respect too.

oh..by the way again..remember ..the pagan religions of the Goddesses..were around for melliniums before the Christian religion...they are among the oldest religions in this world and archeologists often dig up relics and carvings of these religions.
Yet for all their pedigree and ancient ages..they actually did little historically to change the plight of women or their economic status. They most certainly did little to make the lives of the men better and more convenient. WE have no surviving records of this. What survives is a record of types and variations of feudalism supported by these goddess religions. Feudalism..a few royalty living well off the work and labor of others. The priesthood and priestesses.

For all their posturing and ancient pedigree these religions did nothing to change the plight of the ordinary peons in this world ..male and female. This history is carefully avoided in favor of today fluff which passes for history here.




And what's really scary is that feminism has died off.


Much of femminism has died off because the young women today have detected that thier mothers and grandmothers are today growing olde alone and not happy. Femminism did not deliver on the Nirvana or promises they hinted at back in the early days. Many of those who spoke out against all these injustices at the hands of the males are themselves married today when they found out it was not coming across as an entitlement. They went for the safety net. Femminism did not fulfill their mothers and grandmothers lives.
I have met several women in their autum years who have expressed this to me. Younger ones too.

Many of the younger women today just want to go out and have fun..they dont want the baggage of carrying around the femminist mantras. It is contrary to the dogma of instant gratification.

Thanks,
Orangetom






[edit on 19-2-2007 by orangetom1999]



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 05:43 AM
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up till the sixties, the option of divorce was pretty much irrelevant....it lead to consequences that were much more unattractive than abusive relationships.
as far as the man working and giving the fruits of his labor to women......
.....he gives what he choses to, and yet, no mention of the labor that the women does for him, without compensation..

what is being said about the right wing conservative christian churches is fact....I know, I've been in some of the most conservative churches I think out there...
what I would ask these churches now would be simply this...

my husband doesn't want me to go to church, doesn't want me to live a christian live...you say I should do what he says...but well, salvation, according to you own doctrine is extended to all...seems to me that under you doctrine, it isn't extended to ALL women,, only those whose husbands have allowed her to accept...
like everything else in the world ruled by man......we get only what they allow us to have.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 10:27 AM
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Dawnstar, you hit it right on the head: no one ever talks about all the work that women do.

Orange Tom, show me one statistic that says that the majority of women do NOT work. You can't, because there aren't any. The majority of women work. That right there disproves your entire theory. A theory which, BTW, mostly complains that women are too lazy to work. I can't even begin to count the insults you have stated against women. I can't help but think that if you inserted the word "Black" in place of women, that you would be branded racist and run off the board by most folks here. But since it's "only women", it's hardly even noticed.

OT, I feel very, very sorry for you. What's it like living with so much hatred directed at a huge group, such as women? Some woman must have really done you wrong. But you have extrapolated it into being that all women are too lazy to work. But of course, cleaning house, child rearing, cooking, none of these things count as work, right? The average woman works far harder than a man. Most women work and those same women go home to clean house, cook dinner, help the kids with their homework and listen to the rundown of their day from their husband. The man gets to come home, have dinner made for him, had his clothes washed and doesn't help much with the housework, if at all.

You seem pretty entrenched in your position as a male victim, abused by women, which begs the question: Now who is being a victim?

BTW, you have never been a middle-aged single woman. You have never had to bear with coming into a workplace for an interview and being told you're too old for that job as an officeworker. I know from my own experience that women who are young and pretty have a better chance at landing a job. Also ones who wear high heels and makeup. Older women are ridiculed by alot of men, for not "keeping up her appearance". I was a perfectly happy middle-aged woman who lived alone, depended on no one and made my own money up until age 49. I met a wonderful man, one who understands and loves women. But if I hadn't met him when I did I would have been perfectly happy with my life, staying single. This is NOT why feminism has died.

Azezalus: Yes you are right, women quit fighting because they're faced with crude insults, humiliation and shaming from men. For an example, see Orange Tom's posts. Rather than deal with it, alot of women choose to work with women and to have women friends, but they want no part of men, and they are not Lesbians. They are just women who have self-respect and don't like being abused and verbally rape. Which brings me to another point: women are the ones by far who are subjected to rape and beatings. From strangers, from friends and even husbands. This has all been documented. And whether you like it or not, OT, men have inherited the rape mindset. It is meant to bully women, put them down so much that they believe they are worthless and ineffective, and to make sure that men remain in control. It's been a part of our culture for a very long time.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 11:35 AM
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hope i don't sound like a sexist but i think part of the reason men and women are not equal is because men are more driven, competetive, more brave and confident, and physicaly stronger. And i believe this gives man the edge over women in society wrongly or rightly it's just nature.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 12:36 PM
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Originally posted by reaper2
hope i don't sound like a sexist but i think part of the reason men and women are not equal is because men are more driven, competetive, more brave and confident, and physicaly stronger. And i believe this gives man the edge over women in society wrongly or rightly it's just nature.



Women are more wiley than you think and physical strength isnt everything. As far as being driven, well women have a biological function/need that most choose to address and hence, dont have time to create devilishly clever economic schemes, etc. Even though some do anyway.


I will NEVER say women are lazy. That is just so far from the truth its funny. My mother works in a factory, has raised 3 kids, and always manages to keep a spotless house. It's truly amazing. As for women my age, well they sure as hell arent lazy either. Ive seen them raise a kid, go to school, work and put up with a nutjob boyfriend/husband.

I guess I was raised differently. I dont see women as victims of opression.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 12:44 PM
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Originally posted by reaper2
hope i don't sound like a sexist but i think part of the reason men and women are not equal is because men are more driven, competetive, more brave and confident, and physicaly stronger. And i believe this gives man the edge over women in society wrongly or rightly it's just nature.


Now what would make me think yours is a sexist comment, surely not the fact that you boldly state that "men and women are not equal". Not only is it erroneous, it's also way, way offtopic. We are not discussing the "equality" of men and women, nor is the topic meant to induce a rash of sexist, women-are-inferior posts.

First of all, women are able to survive illness and injury better than men. We are stronger in that way and that is how nature intended it - the sex who bears offspring is stronger and that's to ensure the continuance of the species. There are all sorts of studies that back up the fact that women are superior to men in their health. And why is being more driven, competitive and brave make a better society? Alot of that leads to war. Now as for being more self-confident, self-confidence is not something programmed into the DNA. If you see women as not as self-confident, do you think itmight be because of the way women are raised and treated in society?

You know, if you came out and said Blacks are not equal to Whites because Blacks have smaller brains, you would be accused of racism, something which isn't tolerated on this board, but of course misogyny is.

This whole thread, which could have been a really good one, has been derailed by Orange Tom and you and has nothing to do with the OP's original question. Of course, hey, the 2 of you might have learned something, but oh no, your preconceived opinions, (based on nothing factual BTW) would have been smashed to smithereens and that can't happen.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 02:08 PM
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Originally posted by dawnstar
up till the sixties, the option of divorce was pretty much irrelevant....it lead to consequences that were much more unattractive than abusive relationships.
as far as the man working and giving the fruits of his labor to women......
.....he gives what he choses to, and yet, no mention of the labor that the women does for him, without compensation..

what is being said about the right wing conservative christian churches is fact....I know, I've been in some of the most conservative churches I think out there...
what I would ask these churches now would be simply this...

my husband doesn't want me to go to church, doesn't want me to live a christian live...you say I should do what he says...but well, salvation, according to you own doctrine is extended to all...seems to me that under you doctrine, it isn't extended to ALL women,, only those whose husbands have allowed her to accept...
like everything else in the world ruled by man......we get only what they allow us to have.


Sorry Dawnstar,

I dont buy into your victimization either. I would have no objection to my woman going to church. That is her buisness and her faith. That does not wash with me. Also women have lots of time to watch these programs..lifetime channel etc...etc..they can find tiime to go to church.
Television is not an altar that people need to spend such a huge amount of time worshiping before it.
Like the 7to1 in floor space for womans goods television is part of the marketing strategy to maintain this 7to1 disparity. This means someone has alot of spare time to sit in front of it and get brainwashed into purchasing these 7to 1 goods with moneys ..but they get paid less than men ...right????
I also dont buy into the concept that a man gives what he chooses to.
This still does not account for the market share at 7 to 1 twords female goods in the stores. At this rate and women automatically making less moneys than men...someone is giving alot to support a 7 to 1 disparity.
It doesnt wash..Dawnstar.

ON the contrary ..what I notice is that a mans labor is often overlooked and taken for granted. This is what men do as many a woman has told me. This is what men are supposed to be doing. Lots of men do this...so psychologically as a Woman I can go or proceed to the next step since lots of men do this..I can count on this and go to the next step as part of my overall operating strategy/technique.

I remember makiing the mistake of letting a girlfriend and her children move in with me. She quickly moved into the routine of arranging this house to her standards. She proceeded quickly to take down my rifle rack.
Ok..I could put up with that ...but when she moved my books on my bookshelf ....I quickly took her stuff down and replaced my books back up. My bookshelf was holy ground. This brought her to tears. To me this is result of what ...Lots of men do this ...meant to her. Not to me..I believe in equality..meaning equal risk...for respect. Not default to play through...unaccountable.


By the way..speaking of taking for granted..how much labor does a man in a relationship do for a woman and kids without compensation? I would really like to read your answer to this question. I dont see this mentioned in lieu of the victim dictum.

I was constantly fixing my car as well as hers...no compensation..including paying for the parts..washing machine...toilets...bathtubs..windows, furniture..no help either. Remember equality and risk??
We split when it became obvious that her and her kids were very high maintenance. The cost of high maintenance took away any semblence of Peace and order in my life. She forgot about me while she was maintaining what she felt was the "normal " manner of living.

What I see happen is that it happens to both partys but only one side gets to screem "victimization" and "injustice." Why is this Dawnstar??

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 02:59 PM
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OT, even the situation as you describe it is geared towards keeping women dependant upon men for their well-being. That being said, if you don't like having to spend money on "your" woman, then don't get one. If you don't like the way she is treating you, then dump her.

Sure, men and women are both sometimes victims in relationships, but the system is such that women are still dependent upon men. Your "victimhood" is voluntary; you choose your own relationships and you can end them whenever you like. A woman doesn't volunteer for things like getting paid less than men for the same work. If you want to complain that men are the victims in modern times, you are kidding yourself. If you go even further and say that this has always been the case, I have to question whether or not you are lying as well as kidding yourself.

Just read the Bible: men could divorce a woman any time they wanted (the reverse was not true), women depended on men for the entirety of their wealth, a woman's testimony meant nothing in court, if a woman was not a virgin at the time of her marriage she would be executed (the reverse was not true), men were allowed to have multiple wives (the reverse was not true), men could keep concubines (the reverse was not true), women had no legal say in who they married, female slaves could be legally kept even when males slaves were required to be released, women were not allowed to become priests, women were sent into forced exile while they were on their period, the birth of a female child required more ritual cleansing than the birth of a male child, female children were literally considered worth less than male, women captives could legally be forced into marriage, and don't even get me started on the morally bankrupt rape laws.



posted on Feb, 19 2007 @ 03:36 PM
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you paint a nice picture of a women's life...

now, listen to the facts:

first, my husband watches more tv than me....he also does more shopping, he also gets more sleep, do you want me to go on?

we both work at least 40 hrs every week...but his paycheck is twice the size of mine. what can I say machinists are a highly values commodity in this area...

but, when I come home, I am responsible for cleaning the house, cooking the food, I get up a half an hour earlier than him so he can have fresh warm coffee. on weekends, when he's enjoying his few days off, hey, i have all of the above, and so much more that I am responsible for..

oh sure, once in awhile, something breaks, and well, he fixes it, or takes it somewhere to be fixed...what, you think that I am gonna take the car in to be fixed instead of him? they'll find 50 million other things wrong with the thing thinking they can sucker a ton of money out of me!

=======================

"What I see happen is that it happens to both partys but only one side gets to screem "victimization" and "injustice." Why is this Dawnstar??

-------------------------------------

this is what I think happens also....you're portrayal of a women's life is so foreign to me it's almost laughable.....but then, I see women living it!! and I see men get taken advantage of over and over again....

but, to you answer as to why it is that women get to play the victim, well, let's go back to my question that I had....about the church and what happens if the husband just decides that he doesn't want his wife to go, or to live anything close to a decent life. and let's get into the doctrine, as near as I can tell it is, of some of the churches...since this was the original topic, wasn't it?

husband's love your wives as yourselves....

wives, obey your husbands in ALL THINGS...

Islam kind of gives you a clue as to that last commandment...it states that since you are dependant on them, you should obey them.

and, well, I've heard baptists preachers come out and say, that hey, if the husband doesn't want the wife working then she shouldn't be working...so, well, if the husband wants his wife totally dependant on him, then that is what she should accept...

I've also heard women in the church that I attended say that if the husband doesn't want his wife to go to church, then she shouldn't.

but, well, the husband, according to the doctrine, is to love his wife as himself, right? doesn't say squat as to what should happen if he doesn't...but he's to love his wife.

okay, if he loves her as much as he loves himself, well, then, more than likely, he wouldn't put her through stuff that he would find unappealing to him....I guess...
so, through time, he has realized that hey, he wouldn't be happy in the state that society expected women to live in and he conceded a few things....
the right to work outside the home.
the right to vote.
the right to divorce.
the right to spend money without having to account for every cent....at least most men...I still have to account for the m oney I spend, even though I also earned it..but...what can I say.

and the list goes on.

but, it was only a few hundred years ago, that men decided to give the black slave the right to vote...something not long before that they considered kind of sub-human....but didn't see fit to give that same right to the ones they chose to share their life with, to bear their children.....

nor was it that long ago when women, where being auctioned off as wives on the auction block,.....in american.

nor was it that long ago when women who did work were forced by society to hand the money they made over to their husband.

women didn't reallly have that many rights, and well, quit frankly, the rights that we enjoy now only came about because the men DECIDED to give them to her.

.
thus the victimhood, especiallly when one can find signs that some desire to retreat and take those rights back.
especially when some INSTITUTIONS want to do it!

according to church doctrine.....salvation can only be extended to women if the father, husband, or whatever man is above her decides it's okay with him!

that right there should have many, many women in this country speaking out!



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