It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

SLC Utah Shooter was Muslim? Does it matter?

page: 2
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:02 PM
link   
Byrd- yep i agree. similar to columbine. strange two shooting incidents in one day. and the fact they are saying he was really calm doing this, sounds very interesting.




posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:07 PM
link   
There was a second shooting at the same time? Also another Bosnian?
Or am I misunderstanding?


Pie



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:13 PM
link   

Originally posted by ThePieMaN
There was a second shooting at the same time? Also another Bosnian?
Or am I misunderstanding?


Pie






There was only one in Utah....im sure that it would have been alot bigger news if two had happened on the same day.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:22 PM
link   
I currently live in Utah, Just for the record...it wasnt in Ogden. It was in Salt Lake City at Trolley Square...yeah i was trying to watch 24 during while it was happening and the news kept interupting giving us "exclusive" updates which earned them an extra sentance of knowledge each inturrpetion. The guy soul purpose was to go in there and kill...doesnt matter if he was muslim or not...he wanted death and thats what he got. Its pretty common for cops to go to that mall, its an old fashioned mall full of antique stores, art stores, and other various restruants, but nothing that teenagers would go to. If he was muslim...then well im sure he pissed off the local muslims for commiting this...either way it doesnt matter what race he was...i belive he was just pulling another "colombine" so to speak.

(off topic: Ogden and SLC are full of gangs...espically odgen...its a big slum, its not suprising when someone gets drive-by killed or murdered in slc or ogden...but it is suprising when a person shoots up a mall..odd)
Btw your topic title is misleading because it wasnt Ogden it was Salt Lake City
[edit on 2/14/2007 by ConfederacyOfUnity]

[edit on 2/14/2007 by ConfederacyOfUnity]



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by ConfederacyOfUnity
I currently live in Utah, Just for the record...it wasnt in Ogden. It was in Salt Lake City at Trolley Square...



Have you heard anything about Motive or any messages he left as of yet?


Pie



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:26 PM
link   

Originally posted by PokeyJoe
Just to clear that up a little bit, the shootings happened in downtown Salt Lake City, not in Ogden. They are about 30 or 40 miles away from each other. I live pretty much in between the two cities. Also, I believe that the shooter was Bosnian or something like that...


Thank you PokeyJoe, you're correct.
I got Ogden, from the radio interview I was listening to. Turns out the caller from from Ogden.


It's looking like this guy dropped out of school, and sort of disappeared.
Became a hermit. Not even his own neighbors knew much about him.
He had sisters in the same household, neighbors saw the sisters quite often.

From the Salt Lake Tribune:
more details on shooter



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:29 PM
link   
nope he didnt leave any msgs or have any motives as of yet.....though i could be wrong



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:49 PM
link   

Originally posted by ConfederacyOfUnity


Btw your topic title is misleading because it wasnt Ogden it was Salt Lake City
[edit on 2/14/2007 by ConfederacyOfUnity]

[edit on 2/14/2007 by ConfederacyOfUnity]


I put in a request to have the title changed to more correctly reflect the location. Somebody is definitely on the ball. the title was fixed within 30 seconds. Thank you!



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:53 PM
link   


As I said it is a racist site. If you go and look at the main page it only extoles bad things and many of them appear to be exagerrated or possibly even made up. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a Zionist propaganda site. Daniel Pipes is one of their commentators. Rabid Zionist and very much so anti-islamic.


Im afraid you have me at an advantage here as I dont know who is Daniel Pipes. Never heard of them. I dont approve of Zionism I think the Hebrews here in this are just the same as the more radical of the Islamics. They too need a straw man.
I do not believe that the nation which we today call Israel is the nation of the Old Testament. I think it is a phoney man made construct. Hence I have no use for Zionism and think it too is a phoney.

These people have a right to this land by an ancient principle called the "right of Conquest." They are going to have to fight to keep it. No problem with me here on this. I just think that they should do thier own fighting for it..not us.

I have no use for Zionism or Islam in this radical straw man form. Both groups will use the straw man technique..no respect for either group from me.

I just dont think it is a racist site. I do think like one of the posters that it is a biased site. They do have their view...much of with which I agree.

Also what Byrd declares is true. Not all muslims are like this so caution is in order. However, I also dont care for how the media and politicians are covering up much of this. There will come a time when they can no longer cover it up. I am afraid that most Americans are asleep at the wheel here on this. Muslim Amereicans like other groups before them are in a very precarious position in this country. Still it does not change the racist, biased, straw man rhetoric that their religious leaders are feeding them...unknown to most of the American public more worried about the LA Lakers...American Idol etc etc.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 02:00 PM
link   
Regardless of his religion, this is terrorism. I fail to see why people label some some violent acts as "terrorism," but when it's committed by someone claiming to be another faith, it's not terrorism. Look at the root word in terrorism = terror. Did this man cause terror? If so, then he is a terrorist.

We live in a society where the blame is rarely left on he individual and always placed on an outside influence. Anytime there is a school shooting, the killers are never blamed, but the music they listen to is, so is the video games they play, and what they watch on TV. It's time everyone wakes up and understands that anyone and everyone can commit violent acts, and anyone and everyone feels emotions and can get angry and frustrated at the world.

[edit on 14-2-2007 by DJMessiah]



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 02:05 PM
link   
I saw this on our local news today;

Apparently there were two parallel shootings in USA:


Shooter at Naval Yard feared a deal had gone sour

Vincent J. Dortch was so angry, investigators say, that he plotted a lethal trap for those he felt had scammed him.

Dortch, 44, of Newark, Del., called a meeting of investors in Watson International Inc. late Monday at an office in South Philadelphia's Navy Yard. His ostensible agenda was to bring a new investor aboard.

The tools of his true mission lay secreted in a pair of bags he carried: two handguns, fully loaded.

When the 8:30 p.m. meeting commenced around a conference table, Dortch pulled out one of the guns and told everyone to "say your prayers."

Minutes later, three key investors lay dead, shot through the .. A fourth man who was gravely wounded managed to summon police.

After trading fire with an officer, Dortch shot himself through the ., ending a brief but terrifying siege and the life of an outwardly mild man who exuded a veneer of prosperity.

What is going on in America?




posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 02:16 PM
link   
Souljah


What is going on in America?


Business as usual.

There was another incident on Monday that didn't get nearly as much press...



www.azcentral.com...

An elderly man gunned down two of his grandchildren and a family friend, then was shot and killed by police in north Phoenix on Monday.

Officials called it "a tragic domestic violence incident."

One of the grandchildren, identified only as an 18-year-old woman, and the 16-year-old family friend died.


This stuff is as much a feature of American life as baseball or the fourth of July. People continue to be amazed when incidents like this happen, but I don't see why - it's par for the course lately.

:shk:



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 02:22 PM
link   
The one difference I see in these three similar events is that the Utah gunman did not know any of his victims. It was more random than the others.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 02:23 PM
link   
probably do not label as terror events, because of the level of gun crime in america, like people say it is happening all the time.

amazing how easy it is for people in america to get hold of these weapons. one day they will lose those second amendment rights, though it may take time. what happens when you become the nau, canada and mexico do not have those rights.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 03:11 PM
link   
Andy


amazing how easy it is for people in america to get hold of these weapons. one day they will lose those second amendment rights, though it may take time. what happens when you become the nau, canada and mexico do not have those rights.


Please, do a tiny bit of research before making claims like this.

First of all, Canada has a huge number of guns - they have TONS of guns (compared to most other nations - us yanks are still packin' to a greater degree though). Canada's gun culture is second only to ours (and some middle eastern cultures where AK-47's are as ubiquitous as pocket knives among men).

There are perhaps 11 million guns in Canada, and about 32 million people - only ~3 million of whom actuall own guns. I had to go look the numbers up, but if you've ever been to Canada, you know they're not afraid of guns. The country has a long tradition of hunting and a love for the outdoors - guns are as natural in that setting as hatchets...

Compare that with an estimated 250 million guns in America (compiled from 1994 statistics here and here with a population of ~300 million (only ~45 million people owning the vast majority of the guns).

Interestingly enough, despite the fact that we're closer to having a gun for every man woman and child than Canada is, we have relatively similar patterns, in terms of many guns in a single household, they have about 10% gun ownership and we might have 16-17%, not a vast difference, and certainly not enough to explain the huge gap between levels of violence experienced in Canada and those in the US.

We experienced 72 times more gun murders in '02 (based on this information), despite have less than twice their ownership rate and slightly more than twice the guns (adjusted for population).

You simply cannot explain the differences between Canada and America by way of guns. The differences in this regard are minor compared to the differences in the levels of violence.

Now, as far as Mexico is concerned...

(You really opened a can of worms here, and you have nobody to blame but yourself)

According to information contained here Mexico has criminalized guns and yet they suffer THREE TIMES THE HOMICIDE RATE OF THE US, and THREE TIMES MORE GUN MURDERS (adjusted for population).

So what does all this mean?

What do you think?

Or are you determined to stand by your faulty perceptions out of some sort of loyalty to the anti-gun lobby?

[edit on 14-2-2007 by WyrdeOne]



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 03:21 PM
link   
WyrdeOne- sorry for not looking up the actual figures. you even admit yourself that usa has a disproportunate rate of gun crime between canada and usa. mexico at the mo is just like a rogue state. thx for the figures though.

so don't you think they will change your laws when you join the 3 countries. gun crime is an epidemic proportions in two of the 3 countries.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 04:12 PM
link   
I don't really think it matters that much because it is a terrible act. What does matter is whether or not the anti-gun people will use this to take our guns away.

But if he is Muslim, it makes the case better for taking guns away from terrorists, (if you own a gun you are a terrorist) kind of thing. Not only does it suck that innocent people died, but it also sucks because it gives the anti-gunners ammo.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 05:06 PM
link   


WyrdeOne- sorry for not looking up the actual figures. you even admit yourself that usa has a disproportunate rate of gun crime between canada and usa. mexico at the mo is just like a rogue state. thx for the figures though.


Apology accepted.


And yes, I freely admit that America has a horrible problem with violence and gun violence in particular. It's a goddamn plague in this country. I've lived here most of my life, and I've lived in some nasty places, ghettos and such. I'm no stranger to gun violence.

Ask my ex-girlfriend about the time some heroin-dealing Mexican gangbangers set up shop in the alley behind our house in Humboldt Park, Chicago, and used our porch lights as target practice, peppering the rear wall of the home with 9mm holes, or ask my former drinking buddy about the time some idiot whipped out a full-auto machine pistol in a lower Manhattan pool hall and started blasting away like he was at war with perfect strangers, or ask my former co-workers (felons themselves, with drug and gun convictions) about the time I got held up at the gas station by two crack.s with a single, palm-sized silver automatic between them. :shk:

Many of the people who are so adamantly opposed to guns have never suffered a single incident on account of them - and here I am, a victim/intimate witness to gun crime three times over, and I still refuse to adopt their position.

I've seen and heard of guns doing some good things too, so it's not a simple matter of removing them from society and hoping people will change their behaviors.

I just flat-out refuse to blame the guns, because I've seen no evidence that they're responsible for the mess we're in, and prefer to blame the stupid people who have no control over their emotions and their impulses and their desire for instant gratification.

It's not a uniquely American problem, but we've got it worse than most comparable places. At least it's not like some African nations, where there are legions of kids running around with automatic rifles, being organized into armies by drug-peddling pimps who fancy themselves 'freedom fighters' and 'revolutionaries' and such.



so don't you think they will change your laws when you join the 3 countries. gun crime is an epidemic proportions in two of the 3 countries.


I've been waiting years to see a widespread gun ban in this country. Every incident like the one under disucssion brings us closer to the day when terrified, pissed-off, misinformed citizens will make that fateful decision and screw the rest of us in their misguided attempt to save us from ourselves (and to save themselves from us).

It's not wise though, to disarm a nation and place all the power in the hands of criminals.

Gun bans don't dissuade criminals from seeking out, keeping, and using guns. They just remove a layer of protection from the citizenry.

I bet you green money that if this incident had been witnessed by an upstanding fella with a revolver tucked discreetly in his coat pocket, there would have been fewer casualties.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 05:18 PM
link   

Originally posted by Souljah
I failt to see the difference here;

What, if it ain't Islamic, it ain't terrorism?


Yes, that sort of griped me, too. However, to make the distinction, terrorism is about getting a political "message" across. The Oklahoma City bombing (Timothy McVeigh) was terrorism. Columbine wasn't a political statement or message... it was just two kids who decided to go on a rampage (I'd say "movie-fantasy rampage" but can't think of any movies that give that sort of ending.)


I mean, if a Muslim would walk into a mall in Jerusalem and shoots down a couple of people, for whatever reason, he WILL be called a terrorist.

And there's the big problem with inquiring about the perpretrator's religion without looking at anything else. A Muslim could have as many reasons for shooting wildly into a crowd as a Baptist, as an Evangelist, as a Catholic, as a Buddhist, as a Pagan, as an athiest.


I think the problem today is, that the world wide islamophobia has spread so much, that the entire world equals Islam and Terrorism, and leaves no room for anyone else, even if they do classify as terrorist acts on basicly all points.


I think that's a very good point.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 07:22 PM
link   
I believe in true and real gun control: Making sure my bullets hit the targets I intended to shoot and nothing else. That's real gun control, everything else is political and philosophical blathering.

Most of these whiny, suicidal teenage mass murdering shooters couldn't hit the broad side of barn while standing on the inside. I can't stand a piss poor shot. Look what Charles Whitman, the UT sniper, did in '66. Now, there was a real mass murderer. Glad to see that one armed citizen was willing to stand up this punk-ass thug. I sure hope he doesn't get sued by the shooter's family.

EU de Mexico is a perfect example why taking guns out of the hands of people doesn't work. If the average Mexicano had the right to bear arms, do you seriously believe they'd put up with all the corrupt political shenanigans that go on down there? They 're would be a lot of dead corrupt politicians and narco-traficanos down there.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<< 1    3 >>

log in

join