It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

SLC Utah Shooter was Muslim? Does it matter?

page: 1
0
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Feb, 13 2007 @ 11:40 PM
link   
You may have heard about this story over the last 24 hours.

An 18 year old gunman, Sulejman Talovic, strolls into an Ogden Utah mall..and CALMLY shoots random victims. There was no particular target, just anyone who crossed his path. So far 5 are dead, plus the gunman, and many are injured.

Thanks to an off duty policeman who engaged the shooter long enough for more support to arrive, the death toll was limited to those 5 people.

Here is The Salt Lake Tribune's view of the story.
Mall Shooting

And The Deseret news
Killer was Bosnian refugee


It's beginning to look like this shooter was Muslim, and not many, actually right now I can't find ANY mainstream links that talk about whether he was, or wasn't. You'd think it would be part of the story. but for now, it's not.

So I ask.

If it turns out that this murderer was Muslim.. Does it matter?



[edit on 13-2-2007 by spacedoubt]

Mod Edit: title by request

[edit on 2/14/2007 by kinglizard]




posted on Feb, 13 2007 @ 11:51 PM
link   
If it turns out that this murderer was Muslim.. Does it matter?

Wouldn't it depend upon his motives? I think we should wait for more information before deciding whether or not his faith had something to do with it.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 12:04 AM
link   
Hard to say what his motive was.

He carried a LOT of ammunition.
a bandolier of shotgun shells under his coat..and a backpack with more ammo.
A shotgun, and a .38 pistol were his weapons. He intended to kill more than 5 people. Thanks to the cop who just happened to be there, he wasn't able to kill more.

I'm just asking, would his religious affiliation be important to the story?
Especially if he were found to be Muslim?



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 12:08 AM
link   
I don't particularly care what his motives were...

You can never safely judge a group by the actions of individual members, and you can never predict the actions of an individual based on group allegiance (heritage/creed/sex/religion) - so what's the point in trying to draw conclusions from such information?

So, no, I don't think it matters.

I just read that the killer had a mullet too; what can we learn from that information? Very little...

A nutter is a nutter, and a murderer is a murderer - I don't care what he believes, or where his parents fornicated, or what color socks he's wearing (or whether he looks like he's wearing a deceased muskrat on his head for a hairstyle). If he wasn't dead already, I'd say kill him.

[edit on 14-2-2007 by WyrdeOne]

[edit on 14-2-2007 by WyrdeOne]



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 12:18 AM
link   

Originally posted by spacedoubt
Ogden Utah mall..and CALMLY shoots random victims


this doesn't sound like he was motivated by islam. Most of the time don't they act like maniac's when murdering for the religion of peace. Maybe I am wrong but I will hold judgement until I have more facts. But there have been shooting like this by muslims. These stories just fade out and no one ever calls it terroism instead they try to make to be the act of the gunner and avoid linking the muslim part into the story. These may be random acts commited by muslims but this is not just a US problem it happens around the globe everyday and what we see here is nothing compared to what they do in other countries.

news.bbc.co.uk...

List of muslim terror for the last 3 months
www.thereligionofpeace.com...
And we should never forget this
en.wikipedia.org...

[edit on 14-2-2007 by sanctum]



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 12:47 AM
link   
Hey guy above me, five, use the "quotes" box in the post option above the type box to quote someone, including their name as well.


Anyways, yeah, I would say it matters. I have been waiting for terrorist groups to start doing things like this and am surprised they have not. If he was sent by group thats huge. If he was mad his g.f left him, then he was a nut and either way may he burn in hell.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:06 AM
link   
Im sure he was a Bosnian Muslim. If he was 18 years old that would mean he was more then likely born right in the middle of a genocide. He was probably also very disturbed. My condolences to all those people that died and this kids family who are probably in a great deal of confusion, pain and probably will be the subject of lot of questioning and even harrassment.

People are already touting this as a terrorist attack because of his religion even before the police have announced his motive.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:11 AM
link   
There has been quite a few attacts since 09-11-2001 in the US.
www.thereligionofpeace.com...

[edit on 14-2-2007 by fiveangelsfrank]



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:13 AM
link   
pieman,

Those are good points.
He would have been VERY young.

My whole interest in this boils down to the fact that even media outlets that
scream "terrorism!" at the drop of a hat..Are silent about this so far.

Is everyone actually waiting for the facts to come out? (for a change).



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:38 AM
link   

Originally posted by spacedoubt
pieman,

Those are good points.
He would have been VERY young.

My whole interest in this boils down to the fact that even media outlets that
scream "terrorism!" at the drop of a hat..Are silent about this so far.

Is everyone actually waiting for the facts to come out? (for a change).

well I can't say that it isn't terrorist related since there hasn't been a police report yet, but the trenchcoat , his age,his attitude, sounds chillingly like Columbine type attack to me.

then again, as Putin said, since Bush's WOT we are no safer, and as above you have people who rely on racist websites for their information (religionofpeace.com) which may make matters worse by blanketing an entire religion and bring about things which may not have normally occurred.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 03:28 AM
link   

well I can't say that it isn't terrorist related since there hasn't been a police report yet, but the trenchcoat , his age,his attitude, sounds chillingly like Columbine type attack to me.

then again, as Putin said, since Bush's WOT we are no safer, and as above you have people who rely on racist websites for their information (religionofpeace.com) which may make matters worse by blanketing an entire religion and bring about things which may not have normally occurred.


I dont particularly like the site but I am curious as to if the information in the charts of that site(religionofpeace.com) is incorrect?? Do you know??
I am also curious as to what qualifies this site as a racist website?? Do you know this too?? I havent seen them speak out against a race of people so I am curious about this too. I see them speaking out against a religion which does not appear to be as it advertises itself.

I am also aware that since the Olympic Killings back in 1972 of what many of these terrorist types are capable. You see I believe that much of this has been covered up by our news media here ..politicians too.
Like a handful I am aware that this has been going on here on American Soil since before 9/11. That infamous day has only brought out in the American consciousness what could actually happen. The events at the World Trade Center in 1993 seem to have been covered up in the media to appear to be not as serious as it needed to be taken.
I am also aware that like the Chinese...the Muslims both inside and outside of America are spending large sums of moneys to gain political influence....even in our public schools. If you can get into our public schools this means you already own our politicians. It does not take genius levels to figure this out. These groups are capable of outbidding us for the attention and votes of our politicains ..right now. That is obvious but covered up by both our politicains and news media ...no genius required here. Now ...are any of these statements racists or just common sense???

Is what is posted on that site..religionofpeace.com...common sense or racist?? I do not see you debating the validity of the data in the tables or claims...just calling them racist. Very strange omission.

By the way ..this buisness in the mall...I have been waiting for this to happen in a place like a Wal Mart or several at once. It will have a direct effect on the stock markets.
You do know that terrorists groups have been seeking to recruit non muslim appearing peoples dont you?? This is common knowlege in certain circles..unless you watch television.

I do agree with what is posted on the site..that Americans are amazingly tolerant of much of what has gone on here in this country. Mostly because the major medias dont ever tell us the whole story but instead cover it up for political reasons...ignorance is bliss....so they think.
I began to become very concerned back when someone ran over several people on the Duke University Campus. This was covered up very quickly by the media and politicians. I am also aware that the DC Sniper was Muslim. Quickly covered up in the media. Is this being racist??? Or speaking the truth??

Pie Man ...I am just cluing you in that much of what appears to be racist to many is not so. It is politics. What is often true today ..especially when manipulated by a willing media is institutional racism..or politics for votes/moneys. Some of us can think this far..and say.." the king is naked." " The king has no clothes."

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 04:12 AM
link   

Originally posted by orangetom1999
I dont particularly like the site but I am curious as to if the information in the charts of that site(religionofpeace.com) is incorrect?? Do you know??
I am also curious as to what qualifies this site as a racist website?? Do you know this too?? I havent seen them speak out against a race of people so I am curious about this too. I see them speaking out against a religion which does not appear to be as it advertises itself.


I have no clue as to the validity of that site but any site that picks and chooses from a specific creed,race,color should be considered racist.





I am also aware that since the Olympic Killings back in 1972 of what many of these terrorist types are capable. You see I believe that much of this has been covered up by our news media here ..politicians too.
Like a handful I am aware that this has been going on here on American Soil since before 9/11. That infamous day has only brought out in the American consciousness what could actually happen. The events at the World Trade Center in 1993 seem to have been covered up in the media to appear to be not as serious as it needed to be taken.


All of it stems from Israel/Palestine conflict.




I am also aware that like the Chinese...the Muslims both inside and outside of America are spending large sums of moneys to gain political influence....even in our public schools. If you can get into our public schools this means you already own our politicians. It does not take genius levels to figure this out. These groups are capable of outbidding us for the attention and votes of our politicains ..right now. That is obvious but covered up by both our politicains and news media ...no genius required here. Now ...are any of these statements racists or just common sense???

Maybe this is a good thing. Some arab groups are using their heads and findng that maybe its better to fight fire with fire(Money) instead of bullets and bombs. AIPAC/The Media/Pro-Israeli groups have been very powerful in keeping much of what really goes on in the Middle East pretty biased and in Israels favor. Up until recently many Americans and euros are being shocked at what they are seeing.



Is what is posted on that site..religionofpeace.com...common sense or racist?? I do not see you debating the validity of the data in the tables or claims...just calling them racist. Very strange omission.

Why would I doubt the vailidity of something I have seen and know about from the news. Do I need 1 website that keeps track of a particular group? Why not put Christians who kill people? Jews who kill people?
Is godhatesfags.com a religious site? They believe so. What about stormfront.com?




I began to become very concerned back when someone ran over several people on the Duke University Campus. This was covered up very quickly by the media and politicians. I am also aware that the DC Sniper was Muslim. Quickly covered up in the media. Is this being racist??? Or speaking the truth??

Do you not think that Duke Campus incident might have been due to all the blanket statements about muslims going on everywhere you look? Maybe this kid was being persecuted and just didn't care anymore?
just look at what happened in Pennsylvania at that Quaker college campus. Nine guys beat 3 palestinian kids and sent them to the hospital. Now what will happen if one of those kids come back and say screw it, I come to America to get away from being oppressed from one people to be oppressed by another. Any one of them could snap. Maybe the right person catches their ear and convinces them to do something they normally wouldn't.

All in all I think just as we made it easier for Al-queda and other groups to recruit people with our mistake in Iraq, we are going to do the same thing here by creating enemity where it might not have been. I think certain people want this to happen though to be honest with you. I think certain groups truly think of this as a crusade and want this showdown to happen and they need the excuse. Countries like Israel also welcome these things to happen. They want nothing more then to rid that country of their little problem. As Netanyau said following 9/11 "This is great for Israel". If America & Europe hate Islam it makes it easier for them. Going back to your idea about Arabs being more politically active , well this presents a big challenge to the very same people. Would AIPAC like competition? Do the die hard Christians in this country want Islam/Arabs involved in American government? Would either of those 2 groups wish for any sway in the way America deals with the Palestine/Israeli issue? I think they are comfortable in the way it is now.

Regards
Pie



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 05:07 AM
link   
His religion only matters if his actions were a consequence of those beliefs. If it turns out he was killing Infidels 'just like the ayatollah said', then it matters. If his motives are purely separate from his religion then of course it's consequent.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 05:39 AM
link   

I have no clue as to the validity of that site but any site that picks and chooses from a specific creed,race,color should be considered racist.


Where from did this come. I saw and read a site which questioned the peaceful intentions of a religon. You seem to see race, colour, creed and consider this racist.

When I see this I think to myself...Public Education ..meaning television education. ie..the standard political line today. Racism..the default to play through unchallanged. I dont buy into this PieMaN ...sorry.



All of it stems from Israel/Palestine conflict.


No not all of it stems from the Israel/Palestine conflict. Many of the more radical of these folks seem to have an intrenched dogma which hints at a tremendous insecurity complex showing up in aggression.
And they are not all Palestinean. Many of the Radical Leaders in this have obvious fingerprints of leaders of the past..who need straw man enemys to hate and get thier peoples rallied behind them. You can tell because they are not more emotionally mature than much of what we turn out of our High Schools and college campuses. Obviously and easily put on the string by thier leaders..same here. Even the politics of these religions needs a straw man. I have heard this same technique used by the union organizers at rallys. No difference..appealing to an emotionally imature audience. Fear and insecurity tactics. "He played on our Fears!!!"



Why would I doubt the vailidity of something I have seen and know about from the news. Do I need 1 website that keeps track of a particular group? Why not put Christians who kill people? Jews who kill people?
Is godhatesfags.com a religious site? They believe so. What about stormfront.com?


The site is about Islam..and islam covers more than one race...it is not about those other sites you quote. I dont agree with them if they are as you claim..but this site is about Islam...and islam is not one race of people. Some of us can get past our public education programming in Racism. This is my point here.




All in all I think just as we made it easier for Al-queda and other groups to recruit people with our mistake in Iraq, we are going to do the same thing here by creating enemity where it might not have been.


I must have the concept all wrong..the timetables too. Al-queda was not recruiting before 9/11??? Before Iraq??
As to Israel..I dont consider them our friends. Nor the British. An ally is not necessarily a friend. I am not pro Israel. Nor am I pro Islam.

As to the Palestenian/Israel issue ..those people need to solve the problem...without us. No matter who comes out ahead..if no one comes out ahead. These Islamic religionists will still be teaching and preaching the same olde straw man lines...and screaming "victimization. It will change nothing. I dont think you will ever hear this from the news media or our public education system like this. It will change nothing.

Thanks,
Orangetom



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 07:01 AM
link   

Originally posted by orangetom1999

Where from did this come. I saw and read a site which questioned the peaceful intentions of a religon. You seem to see race, colour, creed and consider this racist.


Tom
As I said it is a racist site. If you go and look at the main page it only extoles bad things and many of them appear to be exagerrated or possibly even made up. I wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't a Zionist propaganda site. Daniel Pipes is one of their commentators. Rabid Zionist and very much so anti-islamic. You seem pretty intelligent, figure it out. Who would benefit from such a site? Who would benefit from Americans gaining knowledge from such a site? Who would benefit by enraging muslims and inciting them to violence? I read a lot of Israeli newsites and especially ones with talkbacks (Users comments). That site is fuel for a lot of propaganda.

You know the old saying.. "Follow The Money"?

Pie



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 11:57 AM
link   

Originally posted by ThePieMaN

Tom
As I said it is a racist site.


Its not really a racist site, as it has nothing to do with race, it IS though a biased prejudice site. If they wanted to make a point, then I agree they should have a running count of all religions and people will kill for that reason. So Christians who bomb abortion clinics, or Jews who kill Palestine's children they should also be included. I have a feeling though the radical Muslims would win the race by a large margin lol .

But I know one thing people would get out of it. People are idiots, for killing ANYONE in the name of religion and actually think thats what some all mighty all knowing being would want. If GOD wants us to kill people in his name, I say that doesn't make him/her/it much of an all knowing anything. And I will But then again, he would have had to know people would react like this, so in all likely hood, he/she/it didn't have anything to do with any of it. lol

Bottom line: Crazy is Crazy, weak minded people. Devote an lacking any independent thought. Sad really.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 12:14 PM
link   
Were the culprits in the Cape Verde stonings Muslim also?

If they are in both incidents do not expect it to be sensationalized. It would'nt be PC.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 12:25 PM
link   
As I recall, the people involved in almost EVERY shooting in America are Christian. We don't run around screaming "Terrorists!!!!" at every Christian we know. Furthermore, there are a million or more Muslims here in the US, and I have pretty good evidence that they're not all running around shrieking "JIHAD!!!"

The whole scenario is much closer to a Columbine shooting, and that's why there's no mention of terrorism.

COLUMBINE SHOOTERS:
One or more people
Armed with guns
Take out whomever they can shoot (a one-at-a-time-assault)
Have no escape plan or make no escape attempt
Commit "suicide by cop."
Teenagers/young males
Loner/troubled/picked-on youths.


TERRORISTS:
One or more people
Armament depends on how many involved (if a group, then guns, if one, then bombs)
Take out larger numbers (killing with bombs/automatic weapons)
If not suicide bomber, then they have escape routes.
Can be any age
Generally leave a political statement (or group will make statement)
Affiliated with groups

I vote that we quit looking at any violent crime in the country as being "caused by Muslims/Hispanics/Blacks/ThosePeople" and start looking at the real situation. If we bias ourself about who's committing this, we do a lot of injustice to a LOT of innocent people.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 12:57 PM
link   
Just to clear that up a little bit, the shootings happened in downtown Salt Lake City, not in Ogden. They are about 30 or 40 miles away from each other. I live pretty much in between the two cities. Also, I believe that the shooter was Bosnian or something like that...



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 01:00 PM
link   
I failt to see the difference here;

What, if it ain't Islamic, it ain't terrorism?

I mean, if a Muslim would walk into a mall in Jerusalem and shoots down a couple of people, for whatever reason, he WILL be called a terrorist. So why do not the same rules apply to shooters in America? And there sure is a bunch of them lately. Why doesn't the Columbine shooting classify as terrorism? They shoot innocent civilians. They were armed to the teeth. They had no escape plan at all, which means their missions was pretty much suicidal. Actually they do classify on all points as terrorists.

I think the problem today is, that the world wide islamophobia has spread so much, that the entire world equals Islam and Terrorism, and leaves no room for anyone else, even if they do classify as terrorist acts on basicly all points.

Which means, if it ain't Islamic - it ain't terrorism.



new topics

top topics



 
0
<<   2  3 >>

log in

join