Is religion holding us back?

I agree to a certain point Sapphire. We are...in a philosophical sense immortal, if you believe in the attributes of a soul. This is precisely where my argument comes in.
For those who wish to follow a religion, or gathering of like minded people, must also embrace humankinds greatest achievments in scientific research.
The one thing that really ticks me off is when people say. "God never intended us to crack the human genome" How do they know? Not even the "Holy Father" himself has a direct line to "Big G".

I don't subscribe to any religeous faction, but does that prevent me from behaving in a good christian/muslim/hebrew like manner?
I honestly think it's time to look at religion for what it really is...mythology. And start searching for our spiritual answers from within, because I honestly believe that only when we are at peace with ourselves, will we be at peace with others.
Unfortunately we have some way to go in convincing the rest of these organisations that free thinking and individual spiritual interpretation is not herasy.

Saphire you got it all wrong!

Christ taught the Apostles so that they can teach us how we should be!
Although there are many that say they belong to the Christian Church that Christ himself promised, many have fallen into their own teachings of ''modernization'' and changed the true meaning of what the Church of Christ really is!

Christ promised that His church will be here till the end of times!

In Matthew 16:18, the word "rock" refers to Peter's confession of faith,
and not to Peter himself,
despite the fact that Peter/rock is a play on the word for rock in Aramaic [petros] and Greek [petra]. As we read in 1
Corinthians 10:4, "...they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ," Who alone is the very foundation, or true Rock, upon which stands the Church.
It is on Jesus Christ, the Rock, that the Church's unchanging faith and confession is firmly rooted.


The image of a building under construction: �Now therefore ye are no more strangers

and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built

upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone;

in Whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord; in

Whom ye also are builded for a habitation of God through the Spirit� (Eph. 2:19-22).

e) The image of a house or family: �That thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave

thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the

Truth� (1 Tim. 3:15). �Christ as a Son over His own house, Whose house are we� (Heb 3:6).

The Lord Jesus Christ is also the Founder of the Church: �I will build My Church, and the

gates of hell shall not prevail against it� (Matt. 16:18).

Christ is also the Foundation of the Church, its cornerstone: �Other foundation can no man

lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ� (1 Cor. 3:11).

www.intratext.com...


Saphire there are prophecies concerning what will happen to the Church at the end of times!
Also prophecy speaks of the corruption that will happen in the Church ......and because we know these prophecies ,we know that in the end of times, those that do hold on to the truth will always have the true church........even though the church will become corrupt because of the priests or their own modernization of the Church...
Christ said that the true church will be standing at the end of times.....and it will....though it's people may fall , it merely means that prophecy concerning the end of times is here with us now!

www.intratext.com...


The Saviour compares His Church with

a field on which the wheat grows together with the tares, and again, with a net which draws out

of the water both good fish and bad In the Church there are both good servants and bad ones

(Matt 18:23-35), wise virgins and foolish (Matt. 25:1-13).

The Church is not limited by time: it is foreordained to bring people to faith �unto the end of

the world.� �I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world� (Matt. 28:20). The Spirit, the

Comforter, �will abide with you forever� (John 14:16). The Mystery of the Eucharist will be performed

until the Lord comes again to earth (1 Cor. 11:26).

The Church is not bound up with any conditions of civil order which it would consider indispensable

for itself, nor with any definite language or people.

www.intratext.com...

No one in the Church can take upon himself the hierarchical ministry, but only one who is

called and lawfully placed through the Mystery of Ordination. �No man taketh this honor unto

himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron� (Heb. 5:4). No matter how high a moral life

a man might lead, he cannot fulfill the hierarchical ministry without a special consecration.


The Lord Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry chose from among His followers twelve

disciples � the Apostles (those �sent forth�) � giving to them special spiritual gifts and a special

authority. Appearing to them after His Resurrection, He said to them, �As My Father hath

sent Me, even so send I you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and with unto

them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained� (John 20:21-23). These words mean that it is essential

to be sent from above in order to fulfill the Apostolic ministry, as well as the pastoral

ministry that follows after it. The scope of these ministries is expressed in the final words of the

Lord to His disciples before His Ascension: �Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing

them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe

all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of

the world. Amen� (Matt. 28:19-20).

www.intratext.com...



Faith .....�I am crucified with Christ,�

writes the Apostle Paul (Gal. 2:20). �God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our

Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world� (Gal 6:14).

Following the path of Christ, the Apostles finished the struggle of their life with a martyr�s death.

All believers are called to struggle according to their strength: �They that are Christ�s have

crucified the flesh with the passions and lusts� (Gal. 5:24). The moral life cannot exist without

inward battle, without self-restraint. The Apostle writes: �For many walk, of whom I have told

you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ �

whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind

earthly things� (Phil. 3:18-19).

www.intratext.com...

Certain large Christian societies deny the Cross as a visible banner, considering that it

has remained what it was, an instrument of reproach. The Apostle Paul already warned against

such an �offense of the Cross� (Gal. 5:11), �lest the Cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are being

saved, it is the power of God� (1 Cor. 1:17-18). He exhorted men not be ashamed of the

Cross as a sign of reproach: �Let us go forth therefore unto Him without the camp, bearing His

reproach,� he teaches (Heb. 13:13-14). For the reproach on the Cross led to the Resurrection in

glory, and the Cross became the implement of salvation and the path to glory.

www.intratext.com...


We have to obey certain laws and rules that the Government make, it does not mean we ''agree with them'' BUT we still have to abide by them!
If we break those laws or rules, there are consequences.....according to what is written!


The same goes for God's rules.....they are there for our own good ,to be perfected in Christ's teachings for the benefit of our soul!
And if we abide by the words of Christ that He Himself taught the Apostles to teach us.....would it not benefit us in the long run?
How can it not!
For the rules are there to bring us closer to Christ and to correct our mistakes through repentance.....�I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance� (Matt. 9:13),

How can we not go......if we are sick, we go to the doctor to be cured.....or at least to ask for advice....

Sin.......On the other hand, it is essential to remember that the remission of sins in the Mystery is an

act of mercy, but not an irrational pity. It is given for a man�s spiritual profit, �for edification,

and not for destruction� (2 Cor. 10:8).
To make us rightous in God's eyes....

www.intratext.com...

Any way.....all the best Saphire.....
Sorry for going on a bit too much...
helen......
take care..

Originally posted by helen670
Saphire you got it all wrong!

oh, says who Helen?

Christ taught the Apostles so that they can teach us how we should be!
Although there are many that say they belong to the Christian Church that Christ himself promised, many have fallen into their own teachings of ''modernization'' and changed the true meaning of what the Church of Christ really is!

Christ promised that His church will be here till the end of times!

In Matthew 16:18, the word "rock" refers to Peter's confession of faith,
and not to Peter himself,
despite the fact that Peter/rock is a play on the word for rock in Aramaic [petros] and Greek [petra]. As we read in 1
Corinthians 10:4, "...they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them, and that Rock was Christ," Who alone is the very foundation, or true Rock, upon which stands the Church.
It is on Jesus Christ, the Rock, that the Church's unchanging faith and confession is firmly rooted.


The image of a building under construction: �Now therefore ye are no more strangers

and foreigners, but fellow-citizens with the saints, and of the household of God; and are built

upon the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets, Jesus Christ Himself being the chief cornerstone;

in Whom all the building, fitly framed together, groweth unto a holy temple in the Lord; in

Whom ye also are builded for a habitation of God through the Spirit� (Eph. 2:19-22).

e) The image of a house or family: �That thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave

thyself in the house of God, which is the Church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the

Truth� (1 Tim. 3:15). �Christ as a Son over His own house, Whose house are we� (Heb 3:6).

The Lord Jesus Christ is also the Founder of the Church: �I will build My Church, and the

gates of hell shall not prevail against it� (Matt. 16:18).

Christ is also the Foundation of the Church, its cornerstone: �Other foundation can no man

lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ� (1 Cor. 3:11).

www.intratext.com...


Saphire there are prophecies concerning what will happen to the Church at the end of times!
Also prophecy speaks of the corruption that will happen in the Church ......and because we know these prophecies ,we know that in the end of times, those that do hold on to the truth will always have the true church........even though the church will become corrupt because of the priests or their own modernization of the Church...
Christ said that the true church will be standing at the end of times.....and it will....though it's people may fall , it merely means that prophecy concerning the end of times is here with us now!

www.intratext.com...


The Saviour compares His Church with

a field on which the wheat grows together with the tares, and again, with a net which draws out

of the water both good fish and bad In the Church there are both good servants and bad ones

(Matt 18:23-35), wise virgins and foolish (Matt. 25:1-13).

The Church is not limited by time: it is foreordained to bring people to faith �unto the end of

the world.� �I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world� (Matt. 28:20). The Spirit, the

Comforter, �will abide with you forever� (John 14:16). The Mystery of the Eucharist will be performed

until the Lord comes again to earth (1 Cor. 11:26).

The Church is not bound up with any conditions of civil order which it would consider indispensable

for itself, nor with any definite language or people.

www.intratext.com...

No one in the Church can take upon himself the hierarchical ministry, but only one who is

called and lawfully placed through the Mystery of Ordination. �No man taketh this honor unto

himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron� (Heb. 5:4). No matter how high a moral life

a man might lead, he cannot fulfill the hierarchical ministry without a special consecration.


The Lord Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry chose from among His followers twelve

disciples � the Apostles (those �sent forth�) � giving to them special spiritual gifts and a special

authority. Appearing to them after His Resurrection, He said to them, �As My Father hath

sent Me, even so send I you. And when He had said this, He breathed on them, and with unto

them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit. Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and

whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained� (John 20:21-23). These words mean that it is essential

to be sent from above in order to fulfill the Apostolic ministry, as well as the pastoral

ministry that follows after it. The scope of these ministries is expressed in the final words of the

Lord to His disciples before His Ascension: �Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing

them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe

all things whatsoever I have commanded you. And, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of

the world. Amen� (Matt. 28:19-20).

www.intratext.com...



Faith .....�I am crucified with Christ,�

writes the Apostle Paul (Gal. 2:20). �God forbid that I should glory, save in the Cross of our

Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world� (Gal 6:14).

Following the path of Christ, the Apostles finished the struggle of their life with a martyr�s death.

All believers are called to struggle according to their strength: �They that are Christ�s have

crucified the flesh with the passions and lusts� (Gal. 5:24). The moral life cannot exist without

inward battle, without self-restraint. The Apostle writes: �For many walk, of whom I have told

you often, and now tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ �

whose end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind

earthly things� (Phil. 3:18-19).

www.intratext.com...

Certain large Christian societies deny the Cross as a visible banner, considering that it

has remained what it was, an instrument of reproach. The Apostle Paul already warned against

such an �offense of the Cross� (Gal. 5:11), �lest the Cross of Christ should be made of none effect.

For the preaching of the Cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are being

saved, it is the power of God� (1 Cor. 1:17-18). He exhorted men not be ashamed of the

Cross as a sign of reproach: �Let us go forth therefore unto Him without the camp, bearing His

reproach,� he teaches (Heb. 13:13-14). For the reproach on the Cross led to the Resurrection in

glory, and the Cross became the implement of salvation and the path to glory.

www.intratext.com...


We have to obey certain laws and rules that the Government make, it does not mean we ''agree with them'' BUT we still have to abide by them!
If we break those laws or rules, there are consequences.....according to what is written!


The same goes for God's rules.....they are there for our own good ,to be perfected in Christ's teachings for the benefit of our soul!
And if we abide by the words of Christ that He Himself taught the Apostles to teach us.....would it not benefit us in the long run?
How can it not!
For the rules are there to bring us closer to Christ and to correct our mistakes through repentance.....�I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance� (Matt. 9:13),

How can we not go......if we are sick, we go to the doctor to be cured.....or at least to ask for advice....

Sin.......On the other hand, it is essential to remember that the remission of sins in the Mystery is an

act of mercy, but not an irrational pity. It is given for a man�s spiritual profit, �for edification,

and not for destruction� (2 Cor. 10:8).
To make us rightous in God's eyes....

www.intratext.com...

Any way.....all the best Saphire.....
Sorry for going on a bit too much...
helen......
take care..

That was very nice of you but it still hasn't convinced me that what you believe is correct above all others. I listen to my conscience and my heart above any Man - "human". We don't have to agree, thats the great part about life. We are all allowed to think and to grow on our own terms as none of us are exact copies of another. I don't feel at all guilty for what i believe and i don't believe anyone else should be led to feel that way for what they believe either. It removes one's sense of individuality which God created in all of us.

You take care too Helen

Sapph

[Edited on 21-12-2003 by Sapphire]

Helen, you replied to DSR, not Sapphire.

Anyway, I understand your point. Bear in mind there were certain people in the middle ages who burnt/drowned women when they were accused of witch craft and they were doing Gods work?
You could retort by saying today we are more enlightened, or they were misinterpreting Gods word, but the facts are it was the same organisation as today that commited those attrocities, has the church been made to answer for its actions? Has the organised religion of Christianity been made to account for its inaction against the antisimetic slaughter of 3 million Jews by the Nazis?
I'm not questioning your method of faith Helen, clearly you are a theologicaly knowlegable person, but I do question why you and people of similair faith have difficulty in taking your religion to the next level of its development...whatever that may be, it can only be good as it would prevent it from stagnation.

I just found this quote of Einsteins and would like to post it here as well as the website it's attached to.


www.dimensional.com...

Jews do not believe that theirs is only way to paradise. Christianity and Islam, later interpretations of Torah, are both much more prone to laying down absolute dictums about the fate of your soul. "God, however, does not play dice." (Albert Einstein, Jewish Physicist)

But how do you know that your Conscience is telling the truth?

I know that if I follow everything that my conscience tells me.....I may or may not fall into trouble!
Why risk it?
Well, at times taking a ''risk'' and doing as your conscience tells you is ok.....but at other times, it may be a hard lesson learnt....or it can be more drastic ..

Im not saying that your not to listen to your conscience, but to be weary of what your conscience is telling you!
God has given us free will for that reason.....to seek out what will benefit us .....not only in this life, but in the next one!
I guess , no one knows another, better then they know themselves!

All I did was point out that God did manifest Himself in the Flesh......come as a servant ........in the form of man.....Jesus Christ......

Or was that the other thread?



Ok.....

Originally posted by helen670
But how do you know that your Conscience is telling the truth?

according to Genesis, Adam and Eve didn't have a conscience until they 'sinned' which is funny due to the fact that i didn't realise one could sin while in a state perfection...

I know that if I follow everything that my conscience tells me.....I may or may not fall into trouble!
Why risk it?

I'd much more follow my own conscience than blindly follow someone else's

Well, at times taking a ''risk'' and doing as your conscience tells you is ok.....but at other times, it may be a hard lesson learnt....or it can be more drastic ..

Helen, isn't having 'Faith' trusting in your Conscience though? Yes it is.

Im not saying that your not to listen to your conscience, but to be weary of what your conscience is telling you!
God has given us free will for that reason.....to seek out what will benefit us .....not only in this life, but in the next one!

God gave us a Conscience from the day Adam and Eve 'sinned'. Why did he? Well obviously because it was his way of showing us how to listen with our heart. It's like our 6th sense.Sorry but when red flags go up i don't ignore them because some pastor told me to.

I guess , no one knows another, better then they know themselves!

Yes i agree with that

All I did was point out that God did manifest Himself in the Flesh......come as a servant ........in the form of man.....Jesus Christ......

Or was that the other thread?

Ok.....

No worries

Originally posted by helen670
But how do you know that your Conscience is telling the truth?

I know that if I follow everything that my conscience tells me.....I may or may not fall into trouble!
Why risk it?
Well, at times taking a ''risk'' and doing as your conscience tells you is ok.....but at other times, it may be a hard lesson learnt....or it can be more drastic ..

Im not saying that your not to listen to your conscience, but to be weary of what your conscience is telling you!
God has given us free will for that reason.....to seek out what will benefit us .....not only in this life, but in the next one!
I guess , no one knows another, better then they know themselves!

All I did was point out that God did manifest Himself in the Flesh......come as a servant ........in the form of man.....Jesus Christ......

Or was that the other thread?

Ok.....

Well, your conscience is a good as it gets. There's risk in everything, but using your conscience isn't encouraged because it provides the worst risk: the risk that you are responsible for your actions. Using your concience leaves no one to be blamed but yourself.

Paranoia is all fine and good, but sometimes you jsut have to admit- fortune favors the bold. I don't hide behind god or jesus anymore. Right now, I'm happier than ever because I'm in command of my life, not the dictates of a man who died two thousand years before I died.

DE

All relgion is a system of though, a way of life.

Everyone has a system of though and a way of life, there for have their own relgion.

But the system of though and the way of life that dominates in this world is the way of Christ "Christantianty"

There is truth and there is Lies.

Is jesus the true way or other systems of belifs the way?

Christanity
Judaism
Islam
Western system of thinking

The NEO: The aliens I am in contact with call God "The Prime Mover of the Universe". They don't understand the concept of WORSHIP. They just say "What is, IS."
They also say that most people say that souls exist. It is when they discuss various PROPHETS and SCRIPTURES that arguments arise.

It has been a contributing factor in preventing us
from living in peace with each other.
That's too obvious to those who are familiar with the inquistion,the crusades,the religious wars between the prostestants and the catholics, and the various other examples.

It does help to divide us even further apart.
It's bad enought we have ethnic,linguistic,nationalistic
and political differences.
but having religous differences just adds another fence
between all of us.

Zero:

I agree, I am far from proposing that all religion is holding us back. In the first post I thought I made it clear that the reference was to organised religions. Where large religious organisations are wielding considerable power over aspects of society that they don't have any credentials to deal with. Such as science.

Originally posted by akummma
All relgion is a system of though, a way of life.
Everyone has a system of though and a way of life, there for have their own relgion.

Is jesus the true way or other systems of belifs the way?

Is there a "true way" at all?

A true way to what?

Originally posted by yogibear
has been a contributing factor in preventing us from living in peace with each other.
It does help to divide us even further apart.
It's bad enought we have ethnic,linguistic,nationalistic
and political differences.
but having religous differences just adds another fence
between all of us.

Yes, but religion has the potential to unite us all, as well.

Differences aren't bad - different ideas, different cultures, different beliefs. Only the common lack of respect for those differences is.

[Edited on 29-12-2003 by quango]

Is there a "true way" at all?

A true way to what?

The Tao is the Way, and the Way is the Tao....

Sorry, just couldn't resist it....

From Quango>


Yes, but religion has the potential to unite us all, as well.

I'm not so sure about that.
If you look at the different religions that have come into
existence there is even division and discord among them.

For example in Christianity you had different sects or groups that disagreed with each other over interpretation
of scripture.
That's why you have catholics,protestants and other groups.
The catholics and protestants even went to war and killed
each other over this.

In Islam you have the sunnis and the shiites.
Same thing here disagreement and conflict.
They may have even fought each other in the same manner as catholics and protestants.
I have heard that in countries with a sunni majority
the shiites have been discriminated and persecuted.

Even those who profess the same faith don't get along
or agree on their own religion.

I think we should abolish religion.

Why debate over scriptures that were written 2000 years ago and are very jaded.

One thing that makes me mad, is the new Times article.

Those writers, such Cowards.

Never could they debate the existence of Jesus, but Gospels, pshhh.

Deep

There's truth and peace in every religion but it's when the religion thinks it's the best and the only one, there's ego and power corrupting its adepts. People are against islam for 9/11 but remove the #ing jihad and the sexist thing and it's all god. Capitalism and materialism is the religion of many and they don't even know! Religion could be good for someone needing discipline and organisation in his or her spiritual path.

Unity in diversity!

It can all be best stated with my little quote/signature thingy. Sad, really.

Our seemingly complete understanding of the world along with evidence of the negative effects from religion, blind belief and intolerance makes these ancient religions obsolete and harmful.
How can the people of Earth come together to face future problems and crises if faulty logic and intolerance hinder it? The time for our bravery and courage to really come out and face the fact that we are the highest beings and can only rely on ourselves.