Barack Obama is he a member ?

Originally posted by Masonic Light

But there would be several substantial differences. The insurance business is a for-profit industry; government is not. Government is already a non-profit insurance provider through its Medicare program, but right now only the elderly are covered by it. Under the National Health Insurance Act, it would simply extend coverage to everyone else.

My fiancé's Mother works selling oxygen tanks for the elderly. From her stories, I wouldn't want to be on Medicare. They can only go to certain doctors, and can only buy certain medicines.

I am a vegan (as I think Kucinich is too), and I pride in the fact that I haven't gotten sick once in the two years I've converted, lost tons of weight, and have much more energy. I exercise and keep myself healthy, so that I don't need to go to the doctor's. I also refuse most medicine, tylenol, etc. included.

I would not want the Goverment taking money out of my pay check to pay for some fat jerks gastric by-pass because he eats too much damn cheeseburgers. I know it's a slightly selfish position, but that's the point of capitalism, you keep what you earn, and you reap what you sow.

As I said before, I'd be in favor of a system that allowed other people to pay into a system so they could use it. And the rest of us just wouldn't use the services. If a candidate proposed something like that, I could get on bored.

I'm glad to hear it, and have myself been an activist for Kucinich in the last two elections. I basically agree with Ron Paul on his strict constitutionalism, civil liberties, and the war in Iraq. However, I have large differences with him in the economic sphere.

That's what would be great about their ticket, they'd balance each other out for a smoother ride.

Yet the cost of government is still far less than the cost of private health insurance.

not mine, it's $0.

Dennis' plan would make this extremely affordable. There's already enough money in the system...

That's just it though, it's MY money that's in the system. I could use that to enhance my health the eay I see fit.

... to cover everyone if we eliminate the insurance profits. Unlike the Canadian/European model, physicians would remain in private practice. Patients would have full choice (no more HMO networks). If their doctor says something needs to be done, Medicare covers it.

The only thing that would be "socialized" is the insurance aspect. Most of those currently working for private insurance companies would still have jobs in the administration of Medicare. Their payroll would be met by abolishing the Bush tax cuts on the wealthy and by ending the war in Iraq. This would also allow tax cuts for the middle class and working poor.

Again, I prefer NO tax. Woodrow Wilson was a ham of a president, and his Federal Reserve, IRS, and Income Tax are what started this mess. If we can get rid of it and start over, then those who do require constant medical care could pay into some optional system that they can get services from.

It seems we agree on practically every other issue, .

[edit on 1/8/2008 by Arcane Demesne]

Originally posted by RWPBR
Health care is available to all in America.

That's kind of like saying that 5 million dollar mansions in Beverly Hills are available to all Americans. It may true in theory, but certainly not in reality.

It is not about the healthcare, it is about getting it FREE. It is about having somebody else pay your way and carrying your weight.

Baloney. I never said anything about it being "free". I said health care costs are out of control to the point where many can't afford insurance, and those who *are* covered are often denied treatment so the insurance companies can make a larger profit. Nothing is "free", but it can be made a hell of a lot more affordable by eliminating the profiteering aspect of the health insurance racket.

Now, for the past 7 years, I've heard conservatives preach to everyone about "morals". But I still haven't seen very many put their money where their mouths are. What's so moral about a corporation refusing to pay for health care for people who pay their premiums? What's so moral about a profiteering system so out of control that it lets human beings die in order to make a few extra bucks? Exactly where in the Bible did Christ say "Screweth the poor, let them defendeth themselves while we make more Mammon"?



[edit on 8-1-2008 by Masonic Light]

This could go on forever Bro...I think we have hijacked this thread enough already. We are never going to see eye to eye on this and that is fine as long as we can still meet upon the Level and we part upon the Square

[edit on 8-1-2008 by RWPBR]

Originally posted by RWPBR
This could go on forever Bro...I think we have hijacked this thread enough already. We are never going to see eye to eye on this and that is fine as long as we can still meet upon the Level and we part upon the Square

You're probably right; we've just hit on a subject I am very passionate about. I don't crusade for this for me personally. I cancelled my own personal health insurance years ago, determined never again to give one red cent to line the pocket of some Wall Street fat cat getting rich by denying folks what they need to live. Instead, I opened an HSA.

But I also realize that if a lot of people can't afford insurance premiums, they certainly can't afford putting everything they're going to need in an HSA. And the fact that even the most right-wing of conservatives in other nations support public health care leads me to believe that the insurance company propaganda machine in the USA is truly a hydra that must be brought down.

Back to the topic concerning Obama: if he is nominated, I will support him. I will vote for Dennis Kucinich in my state's Democratic primary. Kucinich tossed his support to Obama in Iowa, although my own personal second choice is Edwards. The main difference between Obama and Edwards is that Obama wants to play Mr. Nice Guy with insurance companies and corporate polluters, whereas Edwards has correctly pointed out that they are the enemy, and is ready for a fight. Obama is giving us JFK feel-good inspirational speeches worthy of a Unitarian Universalist minister; Edwards is giving FDR/Truman tough talk. And I think the latter is what we need.

[edit on 8-1-2008 by Masonic Light]

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne
I would not want the Goverment taking money out of my pay check to pay for some fat jerks gastric by-pass because he eats too much damn cheeseburgers. I know it's a slightly selfish position, but that's the point of capitalism, you keep what you earn, and you reap what you sow.

I think most people would agree with that. However, what about a 5 year old that needs an organ transplant... or has cancer? Even people who are insured hit caps in their insurance where it won't pay any more for some extreme medical treatments.

I used to think like you, but my 17 year old cousin died of cancer last year. Long story short, he had to have mutliple bone marrow transplants and some very expensive cancer treatments. His parents work and were obviously insured, but it gets to a point where the insurance isn't covering things, and the family was stuck with a hundred thousand dollars in medical bills. In their case, they were lucky in that they got some press, donations, etc...

But still... it doesn't seem right to me that its that way in an advanced society.

reply to post by JustMe74


That truly is sad, and I'm sorry for your loss. Unfortunately, I don't think we live in an advanced Society, not yet at least. However, who's to say that our government won't place a cap on each person with universal care. So many ridiculous bills have been passed (such as the recent HR 1955), that I don't trust our government. I guess what it comes down to, at least for me....is that I don't believe government knows how to spend our money and help our economy and public health anymore than we do. In fact, they are much less efficient. Just look to the schools for a proof of that.

All I'm saying is that, if there had been an 'optional' healthcare plan, administered by the government, and your cousin's parents had paid into it, then maybe things would have turned out differently. But to force everyone to have it is, at least to me, unconstitutional. I'm all for optional social programs that benefit only those that pay into it.

But then you'd have to ask yourself...Will they rape the money supply for healthcare as they did to Social Security? This is why I'm so against our Government and their programs. It has nothing to do with me not wanting to help a fellow American, because I will help anyone on the streets in a heartbeat.

Originally posted by Arcane Demesne

My fiancé's Mother works selling oxygen tanks for the elderly. From her stories, I wouldn't want to be on Medicare. They can only go to certain doctors, and can only buy certain medicines.

Actually, this is the case with private HMO's, not Medicare. If you have private insurance under an HMO plan, you have to go to a doctor in their network. Then, if he prescribes you medicine, or says you need a surgery, the insurance company may, or may not, approve it.

This is what people need to know. EVEN IF THEY HAVE INSURANCE, they are not covered for everything. The documentary/expose "Sicko" explores this in depth, and is an absolute must-see. It is the policy of some insurance companies to deny ALL claims the first time around. Remember, an insurance company can only make a profit if it denies claims for their customers.

That is the fundamental problem. Remove the profit incentive, and you eliminate the need to deny care.

This is why I'm so against our Government and their programs.

This is a very important point, so I both hope and pray you will give thought to what I'm going to say. You have hit at the very heart of our problem here.

As you know, "government" is not an abstract entity, but is simply a congregation of people we ourselves hire through the ballot box. If we don't like their job performance, it is our duty to fire them, and hire others who can get the job done.

Right now, government is populated for the most part by businessmen with strong corporate ties. They do *not* want government to work for us, because when government *does* work, they lose money from their corporations. They will intentionally sabotage government programs, and they have billions of dollars to advertize their propaganda supporting their positions.

Most government officials right now, as well as most presidential candidates, are receiving millions of dollars in insurance company donations. This isn't because the insurance comapnies actually like Hillary or Romney, it's because they want to attach strings in case they are elected.

If we hire people who *want* to make government work, and who are accountable to the people instead of large corporations, we can have a different outcome. This is extremely important because the insurance companies are not accountable to us; we do not publicly elect their officials. But we can have a revolution at the ballot box, and knock the corporate-fascist state on its ass.

People are now wanting change, and they want it desperately. Kucinich and Paul are the most radical, but even Obama and Edwards have really good ideas, and understand the basic problems. This could be an exciting time in our history, and for the first time in years I'm thinking that maybe...just maybe.... these guys can fix this mess.





[edit on 9-1-2008 by Masonic Light]

I just got a mass mailed email, I thought it was interesting and those that are interested in Obama may find it intriguing or humorous, I dont know just thought I would share. Once again this is NOT my opinion or research it was sent to me in an email and I cut and paste it here.




" Who is Barack Obama?

Very interesting and something that should be considered in your
choice.

If you do not ever forward anything else, please forward this to
all your contacts...this is very scary to think of what lies ahead of
us here in our own United States...better heed this and pray about
it and share it.

We checked this out on 'snopes.com'. It is factual. Check for
yourself.

Who is Barack Obama?

Probable U. S. presidential candidate, Barack Hussein Obama was
born in Honolulu, Hawaii, to Barack Hussein Obama, Sr., a black MUSLIM
from Nyangoma-Kogel, Kenya and Ann Dunham, a white ATHIEST from Wichita,
Kansas.

Obama's parents met at the University of Hawaii. When Obama was
two year s old, his parents divorced. His father returned to Kenya. His
mother then married Lolo Soetoro, a RADICAL Muslim from Indonesia.

When Obama was 6 years old, the family relocate to Indonesia.
Obama attended a MUSLIM school in Jakarta. He also spent two years in a
Catholic school.

Obama takes great care to conceal the fact that he is a Muslim.
He is quick to point out that, 'He was once a Muslim, but that he also
attended Catholic school.'

Obama's political handlers are attempting to make it appear
that he is not a radical.

Obama's introduction to Islam came via his father, and that
this influence was temporary at best. In reality, the senior Obama
returned to Kenya soon after the divorce, and never again had any direct
influence over his son's education.

Lolo Soetoro, the second husband of Obama's mother, Ann
Dunham, introduced his stepson to Islam. Obama was enrolled in a Wahabi
school in Jakarta.

Wahabism is the RADICAL teaching that is followed by the
Muslim terrorists who are now waging Jihad against the western world.
Since it is politically expedient to be a CHRISTIAN when seeking major
public office in the United States, Barack Hussein Obama has joined the
United Church of Christ in an attempt to downplay his Muslim background.
ALSO, keep in mind that when he was sworn into office he DID NOT use the
Holy Bible, but instead the Koran.

Barack Hussein Obama will NOT recite the Pledge of Allegience
nor will he show any reverence for our flag. While others place their
hands over their hearts, Obama turns his back to the flag and slouches.

Let us all remain alert concerning Obama's expected
presidential candidacy.

The Mus lims have said they plan on destroying the US from the
inside out, what better way to start than at the highest level - through
the President of the United States, one of their own!!!!
Please forward to everyone you know. Would you want this man
leading our country?...... NOT ME!!! "

Originally posted by SEEWHATUDO
We checked this out on 'snopes.com'. It is factual. Check for
yourself.

I did. It's false:
www.snopes.com...

Also:
www.barackobama.com...

Please don't spread urban legends...

reply to post by JustMe74


Did YOU NOT read my post? I said I did not do the research or share the opinion, I had just received the email and thought I would share, thats it, no conspiracy here.
I actually said in a thread earlier today that I felt Obama got the shaft in NH.
Make an attempt to at least read a post before posting.
Thank you.

Originally posted by SEEWHATUDO
Did YOU NOT read my post? I said I did not do the research or share the opinion,

First of all, there is no need to get nasty. I certainly did read your post... however, you posted something inflammatory without researching to see whether or not it was true. IMHO, that's irresponsible, and that is how these silly rumors get started.

reply to post by SpeakerofTruth

Romney is a heretic




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[edit on 4-2-2008 by 12m8keall2c]

Only thing for sure, seems that WE all are part of the obeism or O factor growing from the pando roots .....looking forward to the golden seed being born in august, whatever that may be....

Being that I am a resident of Chicago, Illinois I have had the displeasure of having Obama as not only my US Senator but also my State Senator. He is a corporate interest man at heart and we have seen it in Illinois (that is if you're not a party line voter and blind to the truth). Not too long ago there was a bright idea to do some exploritory drilling for oil (yes oil) in Lake Michigan. Needless to say this has it's risks, seeing as how this is the main water supply not only for Chicago"s (3 million +) but also the surounding suburbs. Not to mention all the communities surrounding the Lake like in Indiana, Wisconsin, and Michigan. If the lake where to be contaminated this would cause a disaster of mega proportions. Guess how he voted ? You guessed it, "lets get to drillin boys."

Besides all of this, when I heard that he was going to run for President it just didn't feel right. How does a one term Senator with no real expeirience just rocket up to super star status? I know, this sounds like rhetoric but I genuinely felt this way from the start, I'm not the type to have someone else do my political thinking for me.

He just smacks of a person that was bought and paid for long ago, I feel he's nothing more than another frontman. A puppet. If it is what it looks like to me the people pulling the strings for him aren't doing it for sh*&s and giggles, they're going to want things done in return and that all adds up to a President in the pocket.

I DON'T TRUST HIM.

[edit on 02/13/2008 by lazy1981]

reply to post by lazy1981


So vote for none of the above if that's the way you feel. Truth be told, is there any politician that you can't look askance at?

reply to post by Fitzgibbon


Not realy, but I realy don't trust that man. So he sure won't be getting my vote. I'd love to see Paul in the White House but I'm a realist. Doesn't mean I didn't vote for Paul (people need to vote their conscience). But I don't think that he's got a snow ball's chance in hell with the way the media pushes their favorites on the public.

What realy gets my goat is that people let the political talk show host do their thinking for them. It's so Orwellian. Idiots like that shouldn't be let anywhere near a poll both. That's what has destroyed our political process.

Originally posted by SpeakerofTruth
PrinceHall, that is the hardest thing to get people to understand..Masonry has been written about extensively. To say that it's a "secret society" is pretty ridiculous in my estimation. Everyone wants to bring up "secret" handshakes and so what. To me, that hardly gives credence to Masonry being a "secret society."

True masonry is not "secret society" but i have read books and talked to many masons and at one time or another have heard them all say "Masonry is not a secret society, but it is a society with secrets."

reply to post by PrinceHall06


In what Lodge did you sit with Senator Obama, what jurisdiction, what Grand Lodge, was he wearing an apron or just an outside visitor etc.

yea he iz he's part of weather underground its lower version on the black panthers an he worked with the leader of the black panthers

Masonry is not a secret society, its a society with secrets. get it right.