That 5th gen fighter will not reach IOC before 2020 at least.

The former Soviet aircraft industries of Mikoyan-Gurevich (MiG), Sukhoi (Su) and the Public Stock Company or Tupolev (Tu) have always been in the forefront of aircraft design.

Whilst some of us in the 'West' may not lioke their designs, you have to admit, the Russians have come up with some really good innovations.

Likewise, one of the the main armaments manufacturers, Nizhnyi Tagil
has a long and illustrious history of manufacturing arms for all four services. (I include the former Border Guards Militia because, by western standards, they would be classed as TA or National Guards)

It should be pointed out, that Nizhnyi Tagil manufacture the T-90 Black Eagle another classic Russian tank design.

Originally posted by fritz
It should be pointed out, that Nizhnyi Tagil manufacture the T-90 Black Eagle another classic Russian tank design.

T-90 and Black Eagle are seperate vehicles. The Russian Army accepted the T-90 and the Black Eagle program was ceased.

Originally posted by deltaboy

Originally posted by fritz
It should be pointed out, that Nizhnyi Tagil manufacture the T-90 Black Eagle another classic Russian tank design.

T-90 and Black Eagle are seperate vehicles. The Russian Army accepted the T-90 and the Black Eagle program was ceased.

Thanx delta. I thought they were one and the same.

The Black eagle is the T-80MU2

It looks like someone is regulating this sudden burst of militaristic stockpiling. Some chemical weapons disposal complex in European Russia has destroyed 30% of the chemicals that were designated for disposal under a federal program. It sounds like they are trying to mark up production by swerving around regulations. Do I smell twenty-first century U.S.S.R?


[edit on 12-2-2007 by Shmucknut]

im really worried about russia,china and iran. After the newes speech from Putin in germany it really looks like a new cold war. Russia earned billions of dollars with their gas and oil in the last years and they getting richer and richer. The fight against terrorism is bad enough but another cold war would be overkill.

hmm, according to every .ru person on this weaponry forum russia is already armed and can defeat the US 10x over with their impregnable defenses and mega tech vs that 'yankee crap', I wonder why russia feels the need to 'rearm' if they are already loaded up.

Originally posted by ape
hmm, according to every .ru person on this weaponry forum russia is already armed and can defeat the US 10x over with their impregnable defenses and mega tech vs that 'yankee crap', I wonder why russia feels the need to 'rearm' if they are already loaded up.

I think you guys should ask yourselves the same question..
Oh the hypocracy of it all!

I agree Ape.

It never ceases to amaze me that, during the 60s, 70s and 80s, we in the 'west’ were simply terrified of the Russian Bogeyman. Of course we now know that the majority of her armed forces were complete rubbish.

About 90% of ICBMs sitting in their silos were unserviceable; there were only just enough operational AFVs to mount a limited attack after which, they would have had to rely on obsolete equipment and, aircraft were often grounded due to lack of spares and fuel.

Whilst the Russians had (at least on paper) a formidable navy, their deep water fleet was hardly a threat as they were, more often than not, old diesel boats.

Their first generation nuclear powered submarines were so noisy that often Brit and Yank subs sneaked up on them and took periscope photographs of their erstwhile opponents.

Now under Putin, the former head of the KGB, we see a slow rebuild of the Russian armed forces. Now, once again, we in the West are creating a Russian Bogeyman.

When will so called defence/intelligence analysts and experts learn that in most cases, western technologies and armament manufacturing are [probably] far in advance of anything the Russians can hope to equal, so really, there is very little to fear from the Russian Bear.

If we take a close look at Russia’s arms industries, we can clearly see that Russia is building aircraft, tanks and guns and selling most them off to the highest bidders, whilst their fleets lie rusting away.

Foreign arms sales are probably the only method the Russians have of raising hard currency apart from the oil and natural gas reserves but, they will not last forever.

In my opinion, the Russians pose very little threat militarily but economically, I think that is where the danger comes from.

Many good points Fritz, but in this case they are designating at least 189 billion USD to rearming their forces. While USA equipment is nearly worn out and not being replaced at a rate fast enough to overcome the attrition. The current condition of USA aircraft, tank, light armor, and light vehicles is deplorable. Good friend of mine works on a surveillance aircraft for US Airforce. It's the worse he has ever seen and this aircraft is extremely important. They work at least 12 hour days in the USA and rotate aircraft to the Gulf monthly. Nice speech from top brass recently about a soldier complaining he had to fight with a broken sword. The general took his broken sword and gave the soldier a new sword. The general then went on to fight a battle with a broken sword and win the battle. He then returned to chastise the soldier that it was not the equipment that wins the battle but the heart.

This is just one example, the equipment throughout the US armed forces is in bad shape. While the USA is wearing itself out, Russia and China are rearming themselves with new equipment. With a lot of the world converting to the Euro I don't see how much longer the USA can hold onto the lone superpower status. The world seems to have forgotten how cruel communism really was during the cold war. But they may soon be reminded. Not only is Russia rearming but Putin is defintely clamping down on various freedom's throught Russia. I just hope we do not go through another massive arms race including nuclear weapons. Unfortunately if Iran goes nuclear there will be one in the Middle East and Russia and the USA will take sides to arm their partners.

I just don't see anything good happening in the near future.

[edit on 13-2-2007 by on_yur_6]

[edit on 13-2-2007 by on_yur_6]

I agree with Fritz but I also see tensions increasing between the two superpower cold warriors. Russia has impressive designs, but the bulk of it's navy, army and airforce are in much worse condition than the comparable bulk of the US equivelants.
A new cold war? Maybe a coolition AGAINST the US like Ru/China/Iran/Argentina, but not one single against the US. That would be suicide at any level.

you have to remember that when space weapons become a public issue in the future, america will have to have someone to compete against.

they will have to have some enemy in the future to compete for space, not sure if china alone will fit the bill.

Good point on_yur_6, except for one thing.

We are talking about Russia. We're not even talking about the CIS [Commonwealth of Independent States] or the old Warsaw Pact.

Russia though large, is still a country that relies heavily on peasent allotment type communal farming [?] and imported grain.

Russia also has the largest military in Europe that still relies on the conscript for manpower, although this is slowly starting to change under Putin.

I simply cannot see the Russian armed forces rearming, retraining and deploying in vast numbers any time soon.

I honestly think that at best, they will develope a much smaller semi-professional armed forces for self defence only and I seriously doubt that they could ever threaten Europe again.

Originally posted by Daedalus3

Originally posted by ape
hmm, according to every .ru person on this weaponry forum russia is already armed and can defeat the US 10x over with their impregnable defenses and mega tech vs that 'yankee crap', I wonder why russia feels the need to 'rearm' if they are already loaded up.

I think you guys should ask yourselves the same question..
Oh the hypocracy of it all!

what ' hypocrisy ' ? I never overstate US capabilities I only defend them. the US is the strongest nation on earth, I have provided accurate links to russians current nuclear capability and how they do not keep up the triad. I have also posted up US nuke capbilites from the same source.

ever watch future weapons? its a show where the US and the brits and israel show off cool new weapons. something I dont see coming out of russia.

[edit on 13-2-2007 by ape]

You may see someday a russian equivelant to 'future weapons'. They, after all, depend on selling their arms to the world more than the US does for income to keep their industrial complex still operational at all. They are selling better weapons than they are supplying their own armed forces. And those they are buying is at such an anemic rate that they will be smaller force levels than Great Britian or France in the not to distant future. Russia has some huge real estate, but no individual rights to protect the inovative and high tech the future will require of the next superpower. That the US is even having trouble with. Who might be more individualistic might be the next superpower to replace the US.

That has changed now. The number of Russian SSBN patrols has exponentially multiplied in the last 3-4 years.. still growing

this is a lie, I have posted facts on this from the bulletin of the atomic scientists. they were only doing 2 to 3 patrols yearly in the last 4 years and i forgot which year they infact didn't patrol at all while the US patrols like we are still in a cold war. US capabilities exaggerated? hmm never. the US demonstrates it's capabilites. you're bias.



[edit on 14-2-2007 by ape]

My god the gap for both quantity and quality is so huge to think that spending 40 billion a year is going to close that gap is an absolute joke. Even if all of that money is spent on buying new equipment its still nothing when compared to the US budget for new equipment. Then who is going to maintain it, fuel it, crew it. run the organizations? These things take years and years and a whole lot more money to get going. And while china and russia struggle to get to the current height of the US's nuts the US is going further. FCS for one making every soldier a node on the digital battlefield. New systems which the russians will never match "quality or quantity wise" except for on the drawing board. We are already manufacturing and using robotic systems, most other countries only have designs and do not have combat exp with them.

Russias best hope is to keep selling inexpensive ak 47s to primitive screw heads around the world so the seed of war is continuosly planted in order to keep the export prices of oil up.

Its not to say russia doesn't possess brilliant minds or stout character but they are far... far behind so is china.

BTW THE US DEPT OF DEFENSE PROCUREMENT BUDGET for 2007 alone IS $84,200,000,000
Research and developement has its own budget of $73,150,000,000
operation and maintnence is over $150,000,000,000

[edit on 14-2-2007 by American Madman]

[edit on 14-2-2007 by American Madman]

[edit on 14-2-2007 by American Madman]