Economics 101: Raise Minimum Wage and Jobs Decrease

Originally posted by GT100FV
Government meddling with market forces is never a good idea

Government has, does and will continue to meddle with market forces. I have pointed this fact out to deaf ears ad infinitum with my examples of Greenspan & the FED. Government meddling is a fact of life. The issue is not whether government will meddle, it is a matter of who they benefit with their meddling, the corporatists or the public.

My support is for the public. Pass the minimum wage now.

[edit on 19-2-2007 by df1]

The great depression was more than anything caused by excessive speculation and by unscruplous brokers convincing people that they could make so much money that they could borrow the money to invest with and pay it back with interest and still come out ahead. The fact that Germany defaulted on its war reporations didn't help matters. The Rosevelt admin. reigned in all sorts of unregulated speculation and the country benefited greatly. There is, despite what the right likes to claim, a place for government to meddle in the economy and when it does in a judicious manner we all prosper.

Originally posted by CAConrad0825
The points that you've taken piece by piece rather than in context, stellar,

There is no context when the points in themselves have absolutely nothing to do with observed reality. Attempting to make conclusions based on such contradictions and blatant distortions is what has the average American male so very angry at the world.

point out that they did achieve their goals of reform.

Anyone can 'reform' something but few world leaders or people are able to actually end up creating a system where people are better off than before. These so called achieved 'goals' are not and never will be good for the people suffering under them.

However success is not measured by having your cake and eating it too.

Maintains the lying scum that takes all the cake while the rest suffers...

Sacrifices have to be made in order to attain goals.

Why are the same old oppressed groups ( in this case humanity in general ) always the one's making the sacrifices?

For some that means death, others it means leaving the job you are at to seek a more profitable position.

The role of an entrepreneur is what has built, maintains and will save our economy.

Which is why the American government is spending so much energy trying to destroy the ultimate entrepreneur; the American farmer. These people do not want to save the economy and while i agree that it's not at all hard to save it's not going to happen for all the reasons i have so far mentioned.

This role is filled by those who rather than scream and shout over injustice do something about it.

Says those who hold the gun and the whip while feeding some of the cake, they stole, to the horse their sitting on....

This may lead to discomfort but that is how the world works.

You don't seem to know much about the world or the suffering going on all around it.

No injustice can withstand the tides of change if it is constant.

If it's unorganized and selfishly imposed injustice that's probably so but the 'people' ( and i use the term very loosely ) we are up against are hardly that.

Originally posted by CAConrad0825
the free markets decide wages in economies

So Californians ( one presume they constitute the Californian 'free market' ) decided to accept Enron's 300% energy cost increases? If people only knew just how bad a word 'free' is when used in relation to markets...

unless the people agree to a tyrant.

75% of Americans never voted for Bush and Tyrants are not normally known for achieving their lofty perches by holding anything remotely resembling free and fair elections. This pretty much explains why Bush had to steal both of them.

BTW Happy 67th Kim Jong Il...#ing loser

We all have our problems but at least neither of us were born there... Things can after all always get significantly worse than they are.....

Stellar

Originally posted by jsobecky
There is an element of the labor market that is not taught or accounted for in the schools: the effects of illegal immigration.

Once again something our governments could easily prevent had they cared to protect their own domestic workers...

They are the ones who work at minimum wage jobs. This drives up the price of all manual labor.

This actually forces the rest of the domestic unskilled or semi- skilled ( and it's just not true that all immigrants or illegal immigrants are unskilled) to compete against people who had skills but no opportunity to employ it in their own general benefit where they fled from. Governments loves immigrants as it forces down wages and generally drives the people to become ever more dependent on social programs by which the government can gain control over them or at least buy their votes.

Why do you think that labor unions endorse raising the minimum wage?

For the obvious reason that it should result in higher general standards of living if the government restricts certain 'free market' ( their not free but lets pretend) forces as visited upon communities by globalisation.

Stellar

Originally posted by jsobecky
Why would someone pay $50 for a shirt manufactured in a controlled-wage country when they can buy the equivalent for $20 from a country where there is no minimum wage?

Trade barriers to prevent cheap goods, made by virtual slaves, from destroying your own consumer economy? Do you even realise that consumers must actually earn their money by manufacturing goods or otherwise creating 'wealth'?

Noble intentions aside, people vote with their wallets first and foremost.

People NEVER voted for globalisation or gave their governments the right to destroy the economies they are supposed to work in; failure to prevent criminal actions are hardly evidence that the victims 'likes it'.

Stellar

Originally posted by CAConrad0825
Socialism and minimum wage help society?

Not if the minimum wage can not be made any higher due to globalisation and a lack of protectionist trader 'barriers'... Socialism is giving people want they want now so you can rob them more effectively somewhere in the future. Don't trust anyone who wants to help you 'help yourself' by robbing you of all the opportunities that could have prevented you from ever needing assistance.

how do you explain 1 in 6 Europeans living under the poverty line?

A lot of new additions to the "European Union"? Unless you compare the US to such countries as Finland/Sweden/France/Spain/Netherlands/Denmark or Britain your missing the point and apparently not considering the fact that the US had EVERYTHING in the world going for it while few of European nations have OHIO fleets with which to terrorize the world into giving up it's wealth.

Their rates are different than the US poverty line, yet, but the point is the same.

Actually your comparing apples and dirt in my opinion.

www.breitbart.com...

Poland? Lithuania? Czech Republic? What about the massive problems Germany had to deal with after the addition of East Germany? Lets be fair and admit it's a very bad idea to compare these two groupings?

Stellar

I also believe that increasing minimum wage gives people less incentive to seek further education.

Originally posted by Charles Lee
I also believe that increasing minimum wage gives people less incentive to seek further education.

You can believe the moon is made out of swiss cheese, but that does not make it so. I know a guy down the street that believes he will be better able to pay for his college education with a minimum wage increase.

Some beliefs are based in reality, while others aren't.

Originally posted by df1

Originally posted by Charles Lee
I also believe that increasing minimum wage gives people less incentive to seek further education.

You can believe the moon is made out of swiss cheese, but that does not make it so. I know a guy down the street that believes he will be better able to pay for his college education with a minimum wage increase.

Some beliefs are based in reality, while others aren't.

Bah true. But then again this is more for areas where education is already poor, if you can make 8 dollars an hour working with no college, what's gonna be the motivation to get a degree and make 14 dollars an hour?
Not very much.

Originally posted by Charles Lee
I also believe that increasing minimum wage gives people less incentive to seek further education.

ROTFLMAO!!!!! I just love stand up comedians.

I can't agree more with this....We are hurting businesses and it's the businesses that provide jobs....people need to stop being so whiny and work up the ladder like everyone else.

Originally posted by Charles Lee

Bah true. But then again this is more for areas where education is already poor, if you can make 8 dollars an hour working with no college, what's gonna be the motivation to get a degree and make 14 dollars an hour?
Not very much.

ummm......the strong desire for knowledge.....the same motivation that has driven scholars throughout the ages? are you seriously telling me that someone without the mental ability to pass your basic geometry course or with the basic reading ability of a 5th grader (and there are quite a few people out there), should be going that deep into debt to gain a higher education...
or are you saying that they are so worthless, that they don't deserve to be paid enough to live? the government pushing "higher education" as the grand solution is just another example of their "meddling" with your "free market". the more they push, the more people bite, the more people go into debt, the more customers for the colleges and universities, the more burdened they are, the more money it costs to get the degree. the less value in that degree because they become a dime a dozen.....gov't meddling feeding inflation.

a realistic look at this would show just how insane an idea it really is. I've already stated that not everyone in the country is college material...but well, even those who are, and are trying to go through college, give them a higher pay and they are more likely to end their college years with a more managable debt! but, we as a society, NEED those uneducated workers, doing their jobs, to assist us as we shop, to produce our goods, flip our hamburgs, file the files!!
for society to invest the kind of money that is invested into that college degree for some of the jobs that are needed in society is wasteful!! so why the coerce or try to force these employees to persue it? oh, ya, the ceo's and upper management of these colleges and universities were feeling left out, they want their multi million dollar salaries also. government meddling at it's finest....shifting taxpayer money into select niches in the economy, that are then skimmed away at the top as increases in salaries and perks, making the cost of their goods and services permanantly higher....INFLATION!!!

but, raising the lower end of the payscale so people can chose what sector of the economy best serves their individual needs....well, we can't do that because it will cause inflation???

ya, right.....

[edit on 9-3-2007 by dawnstar]

Originally posted by grover
unscruplous brokers convincing people that they could make so much money that they could borrow the money to invest with and pay it back with interest and still come out ahead.

Whoa! Who could possible ever, in the history of the world be so stupid?

Even if some morons, somewhere fell for used car salesmen tacticts like that, well, good riddence to them. I mean, geez, thats madness. The chances that even the most experienced managers could pull a high enough return to offset interest rates is so miniscule. So minute. Thats a real make it or brake it hand to play. Over 20 years stocks always outperform but the return on investments isnt compounded like lean interest. God, I cant believe anyone would be so stupid.

Its like those idiots who fall for those check advance loansharking places or those "rent-to-own" places that charge like 20% financing fees.

Ungh, its utterly destorying me on the inside to think people could be so stupid with their money.

This is why finance isnt taught in government schools. The last thing they want is for you to understand economics. You would be so wiling to participate in this debter nation or so eager to pay up your taxes every year.

Keep them dumb. Its easier to rule.

Originally posted by Charles Lee
Bah true. But then again this is more for areas where education is already poor, if you can make 8 dollars an hour working with no college, what's gonna be the motivation to get a degree and make 14 dollars an hour?
Not very much.

Why people have been corrupted into thinking that all learning should take place in respect to earning 'a living' is quite beyond me but beside that obvious media inspired perception i don't see why the rabid consumerism that drives public spending will not encourage workers to earn as much as they can if they have the opportunity to go study... Few people who lack a proper support structure ( basically a rich family) have the means to save up the funds required to go study and they most certainly do not have the collateral to ensure loans either.

If a few middle class kids can put themselves trough college, by working every waking hour to pay back the loan and fees, why should we not rather assume that they are simply quite intelligent and motivated and had the educational background that allows them to take that many hours out of their study routine simply to make ends meet?

Compared to Europe ( old) your chances of doing any or much better than your parents did is surprisingly low and the 'American dream' is for most exactly that.

Stellar

Originally posted by laiguana
I can't agree more with this....We are hurting businesses and it's the businesses that provide jobs....

Without workers there is no business and without educated workers.... Basically it's quite silly to think of 'business' as providing humanity with some kind of 'service' that we have to be ever thankful for... Business does no more than provide it's workers with a income that enables them to consume what is produced by others elsewhere; if there comes a time when corporations can exploit a local pool of workers ( basically not rewarding them for their efforts with any major share of the produced goods) by not being dependent on their consumption it's not being properly regulated and for that we should look towards our so called 'leaders' in government.

people need to stop being so whiny and work up the ladder like everyone else.

The vast majority have never been provided with a ladder to climb. It sickens me that so many people have been propagandized ( i will generously assume that they did not reach these 'conclusions' by actual investigation of reality) into believing that the vast majority of human beings CHOOSES to suffer and their ten or twelve hour work days , if they want to earn even a few cents, are something they do not want or would improve on given some opportunities.

Stellar

Originally posted by GT100FV
And how old are you exactly, as you don't seem to have a grasp of economics yourself? Companies don't operate in a vacuum- not only do they have to look at the costs of business(overhead, salaries, advertising, profitability), but what their competition is doing.

What the competition is doing can only matter so much if our governments properly regulated imports thus ensuring that local workers were not forced to compete against unfair practices elsewhere. You can not create a consumer class by destroying your own workforce and anyone who tells you that cheap imports are a good thing for the majority is just lying to you.

Their competition in terms of minimum wage jobs might not even be a company in the same field of endeavor. Your overhead is fairly fixed(though minimum wage hike mandates raise this).

Labour is certainly the major cost of industry thus it is interesting that massive profit gains are achieved by simply laying off people and putting the remaining workers in a situation where they know they can be replaced if they insist on higher wages. When global corporations increase their profit margins ( when they say double their profits ) the only constant seems to the that they were both laying off workers and shifting to countries where the same skills can be had for less renumeration; they can after all sell the final product to anyone anywhere so they have no loyalty to the workers that built the company in the first place.

All other factors are based on the profitability, because unless a company can turn a profit, it's not going to be in business long anyhow.

Very much true and few of the major American corporations would have survived the last four decades without the major tax payer bailouts they received while their corporate managers grew so fabulously rich. When the company is failing badly THEN the corporate bosses start thinking about the workers and insisting that the government bails them out ' to protect the economy'.

Whenever the cost of business rises, the costs of goods and services rise too.

Define 'the cost of business' as normally that just means the volume of money that the mangers pockets above and beyond what the company can afford.

The only other option is to lay workers off to try to offset this(lowering the tax base).

What about reduced renumeration for the bosses and trade practices that restricts the competition from slave labour elsewhere? Why does workers have to laid off if that means less consumers in the economy? It makes no sense and it's illogical a reason to lay off people as most other.

All one is doing is decreasing the number of those employed, which isn't helping those at that income bracket.

Minimum wages are not the reason the American economy is losing manufacturing jobs at the rate it currently is.

You can't tax yourself into prosperity, and raising minimum wages is form of tax on businesses.

Minimum wages ensures a living wage thus ensuring that inefficiently spent government social welfare programs do not waste billions of dollars. Minimum wage creates consumers and in the end without that it really does not matter what your doing assuming such a thing as liberty is to be protected or respected. Much rather tax business ( American corporations have very light tax burdens) than tax consumers which makes business possible.

Not every business has 50,000 employees with CEOs making $100 million/year.

Not every business does but we should at least properly tax those we do have.

There are far more small businesses out there than big businesses, and they don't have the assets to absorb huge overhead increases,

Then do not tax small businesses but make sure there is a minimum wages?

and simply raising the prices might make them completely uncompetitive in market.

Which market are we talking about? Why should workers in the American shoe manufacturing sector compete with Thai/Indonesian 'wage slave' ( just enough to ensure they can't stop working or escape the system by starving completely) labour?

The low pay of minimum wage is a disincentive to stay at that tax bracket.

Complete and utter nonsense.

If one has the drive and ambition, they can get the skills for better paying jobs.

So basically 80% of the worlds population ( and i am being generous) lacks drive and ambition?

The only exceptions would be those that are mentally/physically disabled.

5 billion people?

In other cases it's just a lack of motivation.

It's hard to get very motivated when you are given no opportunity's and have to eat once a day to ensure that there is some food for tomorrow...

I suggest you go without food for just a day or two and see how much energy you have to 'motivate' yourself with.

Government meddling with market forces is never a good idea

They are meddling anyways so we can just as well force them to meddle in their respective countries best interest.

Stellar