Islam: Jesus (Pbuh) in the Quran, page 1
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Topic started on 18-11-2002 @ 02:43 PM by OrionSirius
Muslims believe Jesus pbuh..(peace be upon him)

Was the son Of Mary who was a virgin, but a very firm believer in God and his word. We believe that Jesus had powers given to him by God ..miracles you can say. It is said on the day he was born he spoke to the people who were harasssing Mary on giving birth to an illegitmate child..he spoke and told them to basically BACK OFF. Jesus pbuh is mentioned in ther Quran 5 more times than the prophet Muhammad pbuh is mentioned. We believe he was just a prophet ..a follower of God, and thats it. He wasnt the son of God, for muslims believe in the oneness of God and nobody even comming close. I

f mother and father love you more than their life..God loves you 70 times more.


"The Quranic teaching is that Christ was not crucified nor killed by the Jews, not with standing certain apparent circumstances which produced that illusion in the minds of some of his enemies; that disputations, doubts, and conjectures on such matters are vain; and that he was taken up to Allah Almighty"


In 4:156-159 "......Nay Allah raised him up Unto Himself....."

There is a difference of opinion as to the exact interpretation of this verse. The words are: The Jews did not kill Jesus, but Allah raised him up (rafa'ahu...in Arabic) to Himself. Some people hold that Jesus did not die the usual human death, but still lives in the body in heaven, which is the generally accepted Muslim view. Another hold that he did die but not when he was supposed to be crucified, and that is being "raised up" unto Allah means that instead of being disgraced as a malefactor, as the Jews intended, he was on the contrary honoured by Allah Almighty as His Messenger. The same word (rafa'a) is used in association with honour in connection with Al Mustafa (Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him).

Finally Muslims believe that Jesus pbuh will be back on the Final day, when the world will be purified of sin and unbelief. There will be a final death before the final Resurrection, but all will have believed before that final death.

If you guys need more information i have found various sites that will give more that and give the same info over and over again!....It is plain rubbish if people say Jesus pbuh is not mentioned in the Quran because he is mentioned more than Muhammad pbuh himeself is mentioned, and if people say they cant find any ivdene of this on EVEN the Internet than just type in "Jesus in the Quran" in Google..and you will 10,000 results.

OrionSirius
www.soundvision.com...
www.islam101.com...

www.mentaweiventure.org...
www.answering-christianity.com...
armageddon20.tripod.com...

and this one is actaully written by a non-muslim

www.geocities.com...


reply posted on 20-11-2002 @ 12:07 AM by Estragon
It's no more crystal-clear than the question of what other religions "really are".
As has been posted on previous occasions, the Koran is only a part of the Islamic literature and a fuller understanding demands some study of the hadith ìsayings of Muhammadî or the sunna (practices of Islam).
There is a sort of canonical list of these but there is some variation and some reject them altogether saying that the use of any other text implies that The Koran is unfinished and imperfect. Others insist that we must distinguish between the Koran (the whole revelation) and the mushaf (what we have now i.e. what survived) and Muslims need the hadith to fill in the gaps, as it were.
As a familiar example, stoning an adultress to death isnít in the Koran but is in the hadith. A great deal of what the West takes to be ìIslamic lawî is from the hadith, not the Koran. And it can cause problems: as the late dictator of Pakistan, General Zia, observed upon the issue of Islamic law in Pakistan: he was OK with the Koran as everyone agreed but the problem was the hadith where everyone disagreed.
Given the fact that it is comparatively recent, historically, the actual compilation of the Quran is, in fact, not entirely clear.
It is, however, pretty much accepted as factually true that Caliph Uthman (Osman), reacting to innumerable complaints about all the different versions being used in different parts of the very recently conquered Muslim territories, ordered the collection of a definitive text (mushaf) to be compiled only in the Quraish dialect of Arabic (some scholars dispute that the Koran is entirely in that dialect ñ and there is a little internal evidence to support that view in some of the hadith) and he established the order of the suras (chapters)according to the order of their revelation ñ even that organization is not entirely canonical as Muslims in the Indian sub-continent tend to number verses differently (like just about everything else in Islam, everything begins with ìbismillahî: in Godís name ñsome count only the first bismillah opening Al-Fatihah (first chapter) as a verse while others treat all the bismillahís as verses).
After that, everything else was ordered to be burnt. What was left is what we have to-day. However, there is also a strong tradition that anywhere up to 500 verses were recited and later abrogated or withdrawn by Muhammad.


reply posted on 20-11-2002 @ 12:48 PM by OrionSirius
WOW ...Estragon..I knew you were informative, but I am surprised at the amount of knowlege you do know about Islam. Although, I also can unfortunately say you wrong about a couple of things which i would like to clear up for you if you may.

True some countires such as Saudia Arabia follow the Hadith..and they place that side by side with the Quran..BUT that is NOT how it is supposed to be! In the Quran...it actually says follow this and only this. Therefore, the Hadith are recollections of adventures and sayings of the Prophet and NOT engraved in the religion itself. In ancient times, you have to understand alot of things were done differently. You know, it is kind of Ironic that Islam was the first religion which gave women rights and respect in all ways, but now is THOUGHT to be one that oppresses. Which is not true. You are right in one thing tho Estragon and i give you credit for it...Some ignorant Muslims try to put the Hadith with the Quran but they do that because it helps them make whatever they are doing right. Pakistan is the only country that is truly an "Islamic republic" and it does not follow the Hadith.
The Hadith can not be the way of life for it was really MEANT for that time period.

Ill give you an example..
Submission.org is a very popular and informative Islamic site BUT if go to this link www.submission.org...
you will find that it opposes the Hadith.
If something is not written in the Quran ..how can you be sure it is true??
Now i am not saying the site is correct for these types of things you never be sure.
I am certainly not going to refute the Hadith and i am not going to say it is all correct either, but i am going to say this: Follow only the Hadiths that are proved in the Quran to be true! That is all.

Also Stoning an ADULTERER to death is really not outlined in Islamic Law but it is written down as happening before, but it is not in the Quran!

One of the Major ways Christians are just SLaughtering many Muslims is by being pro-israeli obviously because many many muslims..men women children are dying in that region ..wwayyy more the israelis that they show on CNN everytime..what about the other side of the story??

This is a very informative article that will give insight into that issue
www.hoffman-info.com...

AND also what of the "Crusades" when Christians slaughtered Muslims, Jews, and even other Christians??
www.religioustolerance.org...

(The Christian evangelicals are "apocalyptic" in their world view right now, Sells said. They subscribe to the theory of a "clash of cultures" between Islam and the West, a concept promulgated by Bernard Lewis, a longtime writer about the Middle East.

"Islam and Christianity are in fierce competition in Africa," Sells said. "They are the most proselytizing religions in the world." )

In Somalia...people think that the people were killing american soldiers which is true but it is not both sides of the story where the "christian" soldiers killed many people "muslims"

Why do journalists and media propaganda have to always put the name of the race or religion, i think that is a way to brainwash people into hating one another. Cant it just be one man killed another human being..i mean isnt that enough??


So if many muslims are dying in Africa, and the middle east and Our govt has a role they play in it, doesnt that mean they too, are killing people ??

What about Indonesia where the Muslims are the highest in the world ...what about the violence there by christians??

Just because it isnt in the news doesnt mean it doeant exist, we as a society have become so dependent on the media that now we believe everything it gourges in our minds.

What about Bosnia?


I would when people say extremist Islamic people murdered..etc..
they mean basically conservative muslims just like conservative christians usually have much hate for muslims. WHY??
I dont know!! why do people hate??

I ask of you all one thing ..go to other means of media like go to international newspaper and read other countries headlines does it match CNN's?? No, because they wont say.."american soldiers kills korean girls" ...or such.
Believe me..you will be amazed!

OrionSirius


reply posted on 20-11-2002 @ 04:05 PM by OrionSirius
I dont think you understand Netchicken!!
When a person is tried for murder or something and if someone had told them to go kill someone, the person who had influenced the killer would be tried too.
Therefore my metaphore of Israel-America is true.

Also the countries you mentionedAngola
Somalia / Ethiopia
Egypt
Morocco
Indonesia,
Timor,
Phillipines
The entire middle east
Pakistan,
Bangladesh,
etc, etc

Their have always been violence there from the beginning ...from "900 hundred years ago"...and it never stopped. (being sarcastic)
NO, Bangladesh was part of pakistan and than they got their freedom just like pakistan was part of India and than got its independence. Though theres not violence betweeen Bangladesh and Pakistan, there was always violence between India Pakistan on the part of Kashmir. It rightly belonged to the pakistanis..and people that live there are muslim, and the people were known there were muslim too. So in such violence where religion does matter, taking it account wouldnt and shouldnt India quit fighting and give pakistan whats theirs to begin with?

My opinion stands for Israel and Paliestine..its the same thing except even the LANd belongs to the palestinians.

Ethopia and Somalia Nigeria...south america...etc...many places in Africa have always had much poverty and violence..people killing each other..christians and muslims both ..not just one. I dont understand when the proof is right in front of people why do guys still stay in denial?? JUST READ ANY PAPER FROM ANOTHER COUNTRY!!
This is no bull.

OrionSirius


reply posted on 20-11-2002 @ 10:20 PM by Estragon
Dear Osiris, many thanks for the reply. I think youíll find that I did point out the relative uncertainty as to the ahadith (to give them their Arabic plural) and indeed that the canon (where it is canonical) varies ñe.g. Shiíite and Sunni have differing collections.
This in and of itself, of course, is to say no more than that Protestants and Catholics have ìdifferentî Bibles.
Nevertheless- complete rejection of the hadith is not that widespread and there is a very strong tradition to the effect that Muhammad said: ìThe Sunna ( the true pathway) can dispense with the Qur'an, but not the Qur'an with the Sunna".
I would refer you a study concerning the "abrogation" of the Quran -i.e. the very old tradition that bits are missing in the remaining record that only the hadith can supply.
One has to keep it clearly in mind that many have maintained a strong distinction between the ìQuranî (the ideal, full, perfect, and complete revelation and the ìQuranî: those parts which were put in writing and which survived.
There is a long history of scholarly discussion ñeven rejection ñof various ahadith: the so-called ikhtilaf al-hadith ( conflicting hadith); but you will find that such collections as Bukhariís (most important) are accepted as inspired and authoritative by the great majority of Muslims. Indeed normal ritual would be almost impossible without the hadith e.g. salat (prayer ritual).
If I may say so, submission.org has its virtues, quite clearly, but it is both partisan and rather parochial: it is in now way indicative of the majority as Muslims: just as a Southern Baptist web-site would have little to tell us about the statistical majority of Christians.
Above all -keep up informed posting.


reply posted on 21-11-2002 @ 01:59 AM by ultra_phoenix
Originally posted by OrionSirius

1) Also Stoning an ADULTERER to death is really not outlined in Islamic Law but it is written down as happening before, but it is not in the Quran!

2) One of the Major ways Christians are just SLaughtering many Muslims is by being pro-israeli obviously because many many muslims..men women children are dying in that region ..wwayyy more the israelis that they show on CNN everytime..what about the other side of the story??

3) This is a very informative article that will give insight into that issue
www.hoffman-info.com...

4) AND also what of the "Crusades" when Christians slaughtered Muslims, Jews, and even other Christians??
www.religioustolerance.org...


5) In Somalia...people think that the people were killing american soldiers which is true but it is not both sides of the story where the "christian" soldiers killed many people "muslims"

6) Why do journalists and media propaganda have to always put the name of the race or religion, i think that is a way to brainwash people into hating one another. Cant it just be one man killed another human being..i mean isnt that enough??


7) So if many muslims are dying in Africa, and the middle east and Our govt has a role they play in it, doesnt that mean they too, are killing people ??

8) What about Indonesia where the Muslims are the highest in the world ...what about the violence there by christians??

9) Just because it isnt in the news doesnt mean it doeant exist, we as a society have become so dependent on the media that now we believe everything it gourges in our minds.

10) What about Bosnia?


11) I would when people say extremist Islamic people murdered..etc..
they mean basically conservative muslims just like conservative christians usually have much hate for muslims. WHY??
I dont know!! why do people hate??



1) It's not in the Quran ? Don't be so sure of yourself.

2) IsraÎl is under Muslim attacks since more than 50 years. And I don't speak about the jews who are slaughtered by the muslims since more than 1500 years.

3) A pretty good anti-Israel propaganda web site. It try to show us that muslims like Christians, and it's not true, they hate them.

4) Crusades Wars were a reaction against the muslims invasions. Without the Crusades, Europe was sentenced to be muslims until the ends of the times.
You don't have the right to condemne former European Christians for these Crusades.They had to fight for their futur and their lives !!!

5) Everywhere in the world, Christians are under muslims invasions & proselytism. When they don't accept it, they are killed by the muslims.

6) Yes of course, when a muslim kill a Christian or a Jew, we can't say : " A musilm killed a Christian or a Jew ", we must say " A man killed another man ". But when a Christian or a Jew kill a Muslim, this time we have to say " A Jew/Christian killed a Muslim " !!!

Do you know why journalist and medias are telling us that Muslims are killing non-muslims peoples ? BECAUSE MUSLIMS ARE KILLING NON-MUSLIMS PEOPLES !!!!

7) Yes, sure. When muslims are dying, it's allways OUR fault. And when they are killing us, one more time, it's OUR fault.It's simple, all what's happen in the whole world, it's OUR fault. We are guilty of everything. It's normal, we are whites, judeo-christians, richs (??? ), so, it's OUR fault !!!

8) Indoniasia ? Are you crazy ? In Indonasia, it's the Christians who are killed by the muslims.

9) Absolutely ! You right .

10) Yep, let's speak about Bosnia. Since the Kosovo and Bosnia wars, non-muslims don't have any rights anymore and the Kosovo have to suffer from Albanians peoples. This war is a shame. We had to fight WITH the Serbs and NOT AGAINST them !!!

11) But man, it's the muslims who are the attackers and the christians the defenders, not the contrary.


reply posted on 21-11-2002 @ 02:10 AM by Estragon
Osiris, I think you must tell us more....
And to interested posters, unfamiliar perhaps with any but the broadest notions concerning Islam, submission.org is NOT the place to go: itís about as enlightening on Islam as Louis Farrakhan or the nation of Islam.
It was the brainchild of the self-styled Rashad Khalifa ñalias Richard Khalif: and almost certainly never a Muslim but a Coptic Christian from Egypt. He was ñeven if a Muslim - declared apostate, anyway, by a fatwa from Saudi.
Villainous, money-grabbing crook and accused rapist based in Tucson, Arizona ( not quite the same as Mecca, is it?)
He made a decent living conning gullible Americans until sent to the eternal flames in 1990 or thereabouts.
A glimpse of his enlightened ways, here:
answering-christianity.com...

Widely regarded (rightly or wrongly, as a Zionist stooge in the Muslim world) and obsessed ñhe claimed ñwith magic-number code in the Quran (the number 19 in particular). He made claims to enlightenment that are blasphemous to most Muslims (new revelations after Muhammadís death for instance) and a measure of his character is the amount of space devoted on his cultís web-site to denials of his sexual, scholarly and personal failings.

Youíll note how carefully they avoid the word ìIslamî as such: here are their principal latter-day stooge cults.
ï The Submitters (most commonly used name by them as they replace ISLAM with "Submission." Since they know very well that REAL Muslims will undergo hardship and many trials due to the fact that they are Muslim, they don't call themselves MUSLIM, but call themselves Submitters.)
ï International Community of Submitters
ï The Submission
ï Qur'anic Islam Movement (an offshoot of Mr. Richard's group from Pakistan)

So a genuine conspiracy angle: why would Osiris, claiming to be some sort of representative Muslim, guide posters to a site as far removed as possible from mainstream Islam?
Those who doubt the mighty Estragonís Koranic prowess have only to search ìRashad Khalifaî, and use such judgement as they have, to see that only one of us is, possibly, speaking with forked tongue.
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