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L.A. Hospital Drops Paraplegic Patient on Skid Row

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apc

posted on Feb, 13 2007 @ 06:06 PM
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And look what happened to them... (I know that was baited... I couldn't resist though.
)

Maybe I'm not cultured enough, but what does "the arts" have to do with this?

And have you noticed the Google Ads this thread is generating? I gotta get me one of those toilet seats!




posted on Feb, 13 2007 @ 07:01 PM
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Originally posted by darkbluesky
And don't be such a self hater, It'll take you down eventually.

Just friendly advice.

You'll "take me down"? ...Why would you post threats in a thread which should motivate you toward compassion? Quite revealing. Yes resources like electricity, food, water are what directly make patients healthy. Escalating costs cause patients to be dumped. Duh.

I can understand people wanting to defend America in every light and who bristle at this sort of thing being tied to the nation as such. Also I don't think this situation in LA reflects totally on the US because California is truly screwed up when it comes to taxes and distribution of resources.



posted on Feb, 13 2007 @ 07:25 PM
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Originally posted by apc
By expecting hospitals to bend over backwards to care for people whom they are not obligated to, that is exactly what you are doing.

apc, much respect.

It's one thing to take the Objectivist/Conservative attitude and use the term from Dune for example, "Every man carries his own water." Yes, I agree with that. ...IF we lived on a desert planet, that is.

But we dont. I am guessing you think capitalism is the best option available to humanity but really I think that if a larger change of heart could occur, Capitalism as such would be married to altruism without much struggle (despite what Ayn Rand thought).

This is my main point: Every human life has value far beyond the cost to support it, excpet perhaps in extreme cases. Whomever that homeless guy is, he's got something to offer the world. I am of the group of people, like Julian Simon (God rest his soul) who felt that each and every human born on planet Earth is potentially the one who will change the future. We become poorer as a people when any human life is devalued because history turns on the people we don't know, not the ones we know.

Can you really say that America can never solve this problem? Do you feel that capitalism must necessarily leave a few thousand at the bottom of the poverty line and this will never change unless those lazy idiots get their act together?

Supreme Chief Justice John Jay in 1794 said the we Americans are "joint tenants in the sovreignty". To me this means that we have to make it work ourselves (America I mean) or else the landlord (evil leaders in DC) will take over. I happen to believe that if we could remove the buearacracy and have a national discussion, that we the people can determine if we want to treat the indigent and sick with cruelty like some countries or if we want to lead the way in such areas as other countries do. I'd be interested in your comments on this.


[edit on 13-2-2007 by smallpeeps]



posted on Feb, 13 2007 @ 07:54 PM
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The arts really don't have much to do with this at all except that support for social programs and support for the arts are often targets for conservative budget cuts and it is also a mark of how rich, culturally, a society is in its supports for the arts and the caring for the unfortunate.

As for what did to the Romans... they lasted for a thousand years.


apc

posted on Feb, 13 2007 @ 09:19 PM
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smallpeeps, sometimes it feels like a desert planet.
My intention is not to lower the value of life. I wouldn't feel any more compassionate for most. I would agree that any person could become historic, but any one has the same probability as anyone else. If one dies, it will just be someone else. We all end up as bones in a box, so what does it matter?

If someone wants to help the needy, that is wonderful. If someone wants to recruit others to do the same, great. If someone wants to force everyone else to join them, I will object.



posted on Feb, 13 2007 @ 10:09 PM
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Originally posted by smallpeeps
This is my main point: Every human life has value far beyond the cost to support it, excpet perhaps in extreme cases. Whomever that homeless guy is, he's got something to offer the world. I am of the group of people, like Julian Simon (God rest his soul) who felt that each and every human born on planet Earth is potentially the one who will change the future. We become poorer as a people when any human life is devalued because history turns on the people we don't know, not the ones we know.

For that point I give you my last Way Above. (...and for a civilized debat w member M on another thread)


You have voted smallpeeps for the Way Above Top Secret award. You have used all of your votes for this month.


Found this about health care U.S. in NYTimes. I think it sums up pretty well the ideological divide here. About childrens HC insurance though... yes, what about the elderly?


States and U.S. at Odds on Aid for Uninsured
WASHINGTON, Feb. 12 — In the absence of federal action, governors and state legislators around the country are transforming the nation’s health care system, putting affordable health insurance within reach of millions of Americans in hopes of reversing the steady rise in the number of uninsured, now close to 47 million.
. . . . .

In Washington, health policy debates highlight the ideological divide between Republicans and Democrats over the proper role of government in helping the uninsured. Governors and state legislators tend to be more pragmatic.
. . . . .

Mr. Bush’s efforts, combined with the flurry of state activity, have forced Congress to face fundamental questions about the Children’s Health Insurance Program: If states run out of money, should the federal government bail them out? Should states be allowed to use the money to cover adults?

Of course they should cover adults, they should cover everybody.


apc

posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 07:37 AM
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Everybody? Even someone whos net worth is nine digits?

If people want to vote that their tax dollars should be used to pay for everyones health care, that is their right. But they should be aware that they are practically going to bankrupt their state, but that too would be their decision.

I wouldn't want state revenue to pay for my health care. I feel it is my responsibility to take care of myself and noone elses. I would feel like scum if I accepted state health care, because I would be. I am capable of doing it myself, just like anyone else.

You start expanding state coverage, and you give the state a greater ability to set care costs. Naturally, these costs would be reduced. That lab work that's normally a hundred dollars, the state would only allow fifty for. I trust I don't need to explain the economics of competition in the medical community, nor how this would destroy the quality of health care in this country? Just look North.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 07:51 AM
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Actually if you read up on it Canad's system isn't broken at all. Slow perhaps but not broken... you want slow be a Vet. believe me.... other than moving at a glacier's pace they do a good job though.


apc

posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 08:06 AM
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According to the Canadians I've known, and I've known a few, you're dead wrong (no pun intended). Of course that's hearsay, but you can't argue with the number of Canadians that cross the border just to receive quality care.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 08:40 AM
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Originally posted by smallpeeps

Originally posted by darkbluesky
And don't be such a self hater, It'll take you down eventually.

Just friendly advice.


You'll "take me down"? ...Why would you post threats in a thread which should motivate you toward compassion? Quite revealing.


If you'll "you will" read more carefully, you'll "you will" notice I said It'll "it will" take you down eventually....the self hate...not me. Sorry, I will not use contractions in the future.



posted on Feb, 14 2007 @ 08:09 PM
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Originally posted by darkblueskyIf you'll "you will" read more carefully, you'll "you will" notice I said It'll "it will" take you down eventually....the self hate...not me. Sorry, I will not use contractions in the future.

Apologies for that. Yes, my self hatred will take me down. I understand and I thank you for the helpful advice.


Really tho, I don't see why socialized medicine is such a big deal. Ayn Rand and her Objectivists had a hilarious pamphlet I remember reading about how doctors have the right to make as much money as they can off of their trade just like any other worker and it made them sound like they were some kind of abused minority group. But what if the American people were to support a special class of doctors who altruistically devote their time to help the poor? Certainly such doctors do exist, but I think that if the propaganda aimed at Army recruits could be aimed at med-school students, we'd have at least a few thousand more docs and I am sure Americans would give them daily pats on the back. Problem is, Capitalism seems to not allow ONE NICKEL of charity, as a system.

Anyway, that's my two cents. Now I'm off to Disneyland.



posted on Mar, 17 2007 @ 04:31 AM
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The law states nobody including illegal's can be denied medical treatment. Except the homeless that is. What advocacy group stands up for their rights?

I know first hand of a homeless man with a broken arm that was turned away from every local hospital because he didn't have any insurance or a job.

So why are the homeless, many who are veterans , sweep under the carpet and forgotten? The general consensus is that they deserve their fate because they brought it upon themselves.

How convenient! Now nobody has to feel guilty that next to nothing is being done to help restore these people's ruined lives.

The growing homeless class is the direct result of government down sizing of social programs for the poor?

Americans have allowed an immoral and insidious government to run rampant. Now we're starting to pay the price for our complacency. Homelessness is just the beginning.



posted on Mar, 20 2007 @ 12:15 PM
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That was absolutely disgraceful. I can't find the word's to express how i feel about that. It's the sort of thing you'd see in a film and not expect in real life. Was anyone procecuted over the treatment of this poor individual?



posted on Mar, 20 2007 @ 12:28 PM
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Originally posted by khunmoon
This is outrageous. It is seldom reported, but has happened before and will happen again. This time it made it to the press. On Thursday a van from Hollywood Presbyterian Medical Center dropped a paraplegic man wearing a soiled hospital gown and a broken colostomy bag in the gutter of skid row in Los Angeles. "I can't think of anything colder than that," said LAPD Detective Russ Long, who called the case the most egregious of its kind that he has seen in his career. Witnesses to the scene, other homeless people, were quick enough to take note of the car's license-plate number. To add to the inhumane in the act, the man, unable to walk, was left without any walking aids. Witnesses tell that the man propped himself up in the door of the van. He then hurled himself from the vehicle, tumbling to the street. He pulled himself along, dragging a bag of his belongings in his clenched teeth. The witnesses alerted the LAPD.
 



www.latimes.com
Police describe the homeless people who congregate around Gladys Park, in the heart of skid row, as a tough crowd who have seen much and say little. But there was no shortage of people willing to describe what they saw about 10:45 a.m. Thursday morning, when the white hospital van pulled up several feet from the curb.
[....]

LAPD Officers Eric de la Cruz and Pernell Taylor said they arrived to find the man being carried out of the street on a chair that had been retrieved from the nearby park offices. De la Cruz later asked the victim if he had wanted to be dropped off at the location.

"He said he had nowhere else to go, and the hospital staff told him he could no longer stay there," De la Cruz said of the man, who is being treated at County-USC Medical Center.

The LAPD has accused several hospitals of dumping patients on skid row over the last two years, including Kaiser's West Los Angeles hospital, Martin Luther King Jr./Drew Medical Center and Los Angeles Metropolitan Medical Center.


Please visit the link provided for the complete story.


I'm speechless. Much have I heard, and some I know, about healthcare in America. Being aware how little social security in general there is, I have however never, never ever imagined it could be cruel like this. This being a medical institution doing it, I just can't find words to express my rage and feelings.

Is it really so, without health insurance you are literally left to die? With no mercy, no care, without charity. In the richest nation on the planet?

A nation that can afford to spend about 300 million dollars a day on a war running, if not endlessly then for decades to come, cannot take care of its weakest and disabled members. Who was it that said, "a society is judged by the way it takes care of its weakest members"?

I'm not gonna praise my Scandinavian background here, but this reality snippet can't help but make me feel that more gratefull for it.

What angers me is the soon 10 billion dollars waisted on killing a people, destroying a country, destabilizing a region, polarizing religious and ethnic groups beyond any conciliation for decades, possibly centuries to come -- money used to create so much pain and suffering could have given free healthcare to Americans for centuries. I can only find one word for it: EVIL.

But I got to ask myself is this what the American dream has ended up as? Heartless, ego-centered and with absolute no campassion.

The last thing I want to do is insult ordinary American people, because I know far most of them is as outrage as I am over this. But I gotta say, shame on any society who can let it pass. What will the next thing be? Euthanasia for those who can't pay?

(note: LA Times requires registration for access, it is free and takes 5 secs.)

(edit to add msnbc link)

Related News Link:
www.msnbc.msn.com


[edit on 11-2-2007 by khunmoon]

[edit on 11-2-2007 by UM_Gazz]

[edit on 11-2-2007 by khunmoon]



posted on Mar, 20 2007 @ 02:43 PM
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Originally posted by apc
Your ignorant left wing rant is typical. The fact that we have no details of this case available to us proves that.

So you think this hospital should have given this man free room and board? What about the next homeless guy that gets hurt or hurts himself intentionally and is admitted to the hospital? Are they supposed to give him a room, too? Hell, maybe all hospitals should build a "Homeless Welfare" wing, to care for all the lazy bums who refuse to rebuild their own lives. But you gotta remember, someone has to pay for it all. And what happens then? Well, what happens when our hospitals are overrun by illegal immigrants? They raise their rates. They run out of money. They shut down.

But that won't happen, right? We'll just abandon Capitalism and move to Socialism. The Government can provide everything for everyone, and everyone will be equal and happy. We can have a nice lil' National Socialist Party running everything. Ooops! Wouldn't want that, would we?


what about the aids patient/homeless man that goes out and commits a 'crime' and gets put in jail? free room and board....free healthcare...free meds.
i've heard a few of these types of stories...hell, drop these guys off at the joint then...the jail infirmary is better than rambling round skid row..

amy things can be done but it involves a makeover and a total revamp...it involves the lawmakers at large to pull their heads out of their perspective grapes....i have 3 words that will solve all kinds of problems...wouldn't happen over night but it would happen...ready for the words?

'legalization and taxation'

there you go...

biggest cash crop in the us and it's illegal. it's in the yop 10 cash crops for every state but 1.
ths would open up thousands of jail cells for petty offenses..88% are in for posession. it would free up millions of dollars and thousands of man hours every year...thats tax monies that could go to other programs....
they could focus their attention to the border and stop the 'cartels' from bringing the stuff in and when they make a giant score, they ship it out for processing..
alt fuel....food sources....a huge export item and money for the country.

thats my solution

[/end rant]


apc

posted on Mar, 20 2007 @ 05:51 PM
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Oh my god! Why didn't I see it before?! The reason this hospital left that guy on Skid Row is because cannabis is illegal!

Anyway one of the bleeding hearts on this thread should dig into what ended up happening in this incident. It probably hasn't been reported in any of the papers since it would hold no shock value any longer, but I'm sure someone who genuinely cares enough could make a few phone calls.

I'd do it... but I don't care.



posted on Mar, 20 2007 @ 08:10 PM
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Originally posted by Boondock78

amy things can be done but it involves a makeover and a total revamp...it involves the lawmakers at large to pull their heads out of their perspective grapes....i have 3 words that will solve all kinds of problems...wouldn't happen over night but it would happen...ready for the words?

'legalization and taxation'

there you go...

biggest cash crop in the us and it's illegal. it's in the yop 10 cash crops for every state but 1.
ths would open up thousands of jail cells for petty offenses..88% are in for posession. it would free up millions of dollars and thousands of man hours every year...thats tax monies that could go to other programs....
they could focus their attention to the border and stop the 'cartels' from bringing the stuff in and when they make a giant score, they ship it out for processing..
alt fuel....food sources....a huge export item and money for the country.

thats my solution

[/end rant]

You got my WATS for that statement.

To apc,
Let us now the result of your phone inquire.



posted on Mar, 21 2007 @ 03:00 PM
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I was in your hospital in Tooting last year waiting to see my Doctor. In the waiting room must have been about 25 paitients moaning and groaning that they had'nt been seen and that they had been waiting all morning for their respective appointment's to see the Doctor's. I sat down a bit bemused listening toall their ranting and raving. A little later a receptionist came over and said that the two Doctor's had been at other hospital's the other side of London and that they were stuck in traffic. Fair enough i thought, it's only once a year i have to do this. Even so these thing's happen and i am eternally greatful anyway as i have been a patient since a baby. However i'm not a racist, but eveyone in that waiting area had a foreign accent. So yes i agree thank God for the NHS it truely is a wonderful thing. Those people should be shamed of themselves! Maybe they should move to the states and see how they get on over there!



posted on Mar, 21 2007 @ 03:04 PM
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Citizen Smith I was in your hospital in Tooting last year waiting to see my Doctor. In the waiting room must have been about 25 paitients moaning and groaning that they had'nt been seen and that they had been waiting all morning for their respective appointment's to see the Doctor's. I sat down a bit bemused listening toall their ranting and raving. A little later a receptionist came over and said that the two Doctor's had been at other hospital's the other side of London and that they were stuck in traffic. Fair enough i thought, it's only once a year i have to do this. Even so these thing's happen and i am eternally greatful anyway as i have been a patient since a baby. However i'm not a racist, but eveyone in that waiting area had a foreign accent. So yes i agree thank God for the NHS it truely is a wonderful thing. Those people should be shamed of themselves! Maybe they should move to the states and see how they get on over there!




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